Living for self vs. living for God

[osgart]

I have to consider the goal; companionship with God, eternal life, world peace, and inner well being. I myself live for my family, and friends.

Perhaps if everyone could afford an education we would all be more selfless, and enpowered.

But what is the ultimate aspiration and its goal, and how is that fulfilling. Faith in God gives one an aspiration, that quite frankly many dont have at all.

Living for others takes discretion; the selfless giving to the selfish would only drain my energy, and waste my time.

Total selfishness leads to only vanity, and emptiness. I think a lot of people fall into selfishness because nobody cares about them.

Ideally in heaven everyone would be supremely caring of each other, and deserving of everything. Thats ideal heart. In reality humans are just not that way. We only have time to work with able people. Theres precious little time to help people up whom are needy.

I suppose you could create an utopian system of government, wealth, and distribution of what is needed toward everyone, but who has the heart and understanding of people to achieve such a thing. Whos going to make the difference. Most people would call it delusion to believe in such utopias.

Survival is for the strong, and those who diligently work, and wisely conserve, and give with discretion. Everybody gives for the sake of prosperity of others and for themselves. Very hard to live leaving self out of the equation.

So my point is, what kind of selflessness does God desire for us?

 

[Spiderman]

Is that your cat in the avatar @Trailblazer
Cute kitty! '

If so, there is something to live for...of course, one of many things for sure

 

[Trailblazer]

Try not to see self vs. God. If god created everything, there is no such thing. Your material self is also your spiritual. God made both body and spirit. .

That is true, but if we put our focus on our body as if that is our true self then we miss who we really are. The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive in the body... We need to take care of the vehicle so we will have transportation but we do not need to embellish the vehicle and dote on it the way some people so. To each his or her own, but when I see that I have an opinion, probably one I should not share. Suffice to say, vanity and self doting sickens me. If one is a materialist I can understand that way of life, but if one calls themselves a Christian, I consider that hypocrisy.

With that said, you can possess material things too. God (bible) was concerned with idolism not just the idea of having things. He didnt want people putting things over him. If you dont put things over god, why split self vs spirit when they can act as a reflection of each other? .

I know we can own material things and not be attached to them. I have much more money and assets than I will ever need but I do not do anything with the money... I just save it and I will donate it to the Baha’i Fund when I die.

(To answer your question, I havent had the experience you go through. My art is highly material and its a reflection of my spirit. Some god-believing artist say god works through them when they make art.

--Yes. Some people see material as idols. Not all of us who dont believe in the abraham god do. A lot of us see material, like the physical earth, to some a tool for expression of god himself. .

I do not consider art or music material. That is an expression of your higher self so it is spiritual. Also, in the Baha’i Faith it is said that work is equivalent to worship, so when you are creating something you are worshipping God.

When I say material things, I am referring to “things” that we do not need, things most people want, stuff like a fancy house, a new car, new clothes, a boat, etc. These are things people want but do not need. We all need food, shelter and clothing, but many people make acquisition of those and doting on them their whole life. Where then is there any room for God? They might think that there is but a heart cannot be divided. If their entire focus is on these material things there is no time left for God... Yes, this is about time, because there are only 24 hours in a day.

“Thou art God’s shadow on earth. Strive, therefore, to act in such a manner as befitteth so eminent, so august a station. If thou dost depart from following the things We have caused to descend upon thee and taught thee, thou wilt, assuredly, be derogating from that great and priceless honor. Return, then, and cleave wholly unto God, and cleanse thine heart from the world and all its vanities, and suffer not the love of any stranger to enter and dwell therein. Not until thou dost purify thine heart from every trace of such love can the brightness of the light of God shed its radiance upon it, for to none hath God given more than one heart. This, verily, hath been decreed and written down in His ancient Book. And as the human heart, as fashioned by God, is one and undivided, it behoveth thee to take heed that its affections be, also, one and undivided. Cleave thou, therefore, with the whole affection of thine heart, unto His love, and withdraw it from the love of any one besides Him, that He may aid thee to immerse thyself in the ocean of His unity, and enable thee to become a true upholder of His oneness. God is My witness. My sole purpose in revealing to thee these words is to sanctify thee from the transitory things of the earth, and aid thee to enter the realm of everlasting glory, that thou mayest, by the leave of God, be of them that abide and rule therein….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 237-238

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't mind people who enjoy sex, movies, socializing, money, mansions, luxuries, hobbies, recreation, sports, comfort, food, sports cars, yachts, Doctorates, reputation, praise, fans, phat bank account etc...as long as they don't harm others to obtain it...

It's just, I've lost enjoyment in those things, or the pleasure I can get in them is quite empty, shallow, and temporary, so I just long for heaven, holiness, enligtenment, understanding, and unity with God, and heavenly beings...

...and death is inevitable, so I hope it happens before old-age...

...but if God wants me to be an old fart, wearing depends, in a nursing home, some day...ugh...Ill give a very reluctant "God's will be done!" to that!

You took the words right out of my mouth... There is nothing inherently wrong with those things, so people can have them if they want them....It's just that I have lost enjoyment in those things, and the pleasure I can get in them is quite empty, shallow, and temporary, so I just long for heaven, holiness, enlightenment, understanding, and unity with God, and heavenly beings...

Regarding this world, I will share a passage that reflects my sentiments:

“Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200

 

[Twilight Hue]

Actually in my opinion there is, for it is entirely possible to own things without being attached to them.

Baha’u’llah’s story of the dervish and the king illustrates this amply:
Baha'i Stories: The King and the Dervish

Kind regards

I think that's key.

Enjoying things without getting attached to them.

Personally I live for self for reasons of practicality. Attaching to other things would make ones worth of self secondary to whatever it is that is being attached to.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is that your cat in the avatar @Trailblazer
Cute kitty! '

If so, there is something to live for...of course, one of many things for sure

Yes, that is one of our 11 Persian cats. Her name is Princess.
My husband and I pretty much live for our cats and our God.
Both require a lot of work but they are worth every minute.

I love animals... I also live for the squirrels, chipmunks, raccoons, and birds that inhabit our property.
Animals give me something to live for... I am still looking for other things, but I have not found many yet...
Oh wait! I forgot about people like you on the forums... they also give me a reason to live.

 

[Spiderman]

Yes, that is one of our 11 Persian cats. Her name is Princess.
My husband and I pretty much live for our cats and our God.
Both require a lot of work but they are worth every minute.

I love animals... I also live for the squirrels, chipmunks, raccoons, and birds that inhabit our property.
Animals give me something to live for... I am still looking for other things, but I have not found many yet...
Oh wait! I forgot about people like you on the forums... they also give me a reason to live.

Thanks! That made my day!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is true, but if we put our focus on our body as if that is our true self then we miss who we really are.

The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive in the body... We need to take care of the vehicle so we will have transportation but we do not need to embellish the vehicle and dote on it the way some people so. To each his or her own, but when I see that I have an opinion, probably one I should not share. Suffice to say, vanity and self doting sickens me. If one is a materialist I can understand that way of life, but if one calls themselves a Christian, I consider that hypocrisy.

I see the body and spirit as reflections of each other. If going by scripture

1 Corinthians 6:19-2 and
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

-Do you mean body as a metaphor for, say, greed and attachment from ego rather than actual physical things like our bodies?

The body is a temple as says scripture. In my words it also Is the spirit not a tool or vehicle. You use it as worship. Your spirit connects your body and soul as one.

The lust of material things: lust of the bodys appearance, money, and cars is different than having these things as christians and not using them as idols. While we can generalize peoples relationship with material things, I dont see it wise.

I know we can own material things and not be attached to them. I have much more money and assets than I will ever need but I do not do anything with the money... I just save it and I will donate it to the Baha’i Fund when I die.

So its not material things you speak of? They are just labels that seperate different types of attachment?

I do not consider art or music material. That is an expression of your higher self so it is spiritual. Also, in the Baha’i Faith it is said that work is equivalent to worship, so when you are creating something you are worshipping God.

The expression of art is also its mediums. The art is an idol of the soul and vis versa. Some have passion for car driving. Some working their dream job. Some the feeling of beeing successful in the things one buys and the people they care of. All of these are material. The difference is, they reflect our passion of the soul and by the spirit. Not all who have material things seperate themselves from god.

Body and spirit are reflections of each other. Art isnt a vehicle nor more than the body. They are one and the same.

When I say material things, I am referring to “things” that we do not need, things most people want, stuff like a fancy house, a new car, new clothes, a boat, etc. These are things people want but do not need. We all need food, shelter and clothing, but many people make acquisition of those and doting on them their whole life. Where then is there any room for God? They might think that there is but a heart cannot be divided. If their entire focus is on these material things there is no time left for God... Yes, this is about time, because there are only 24 hours in a day.

Are you sure its more the intent and attachment to these things and not the things themselves?

 

[Trailblazer]

But to the degree that we are attached to any of those things they will come in between us and God. There is just no way around that.
Actually in my opinion there is, for it is entirely possible to own things without being attached to them.

Baha’u’llah’s story of the dervish and the king illustrates this amply:
Baha'i Stories: The King and the Dervish

Thanks, I have heard that story before...
I said to the degree to which we are attached to them they will come in between us and God, so if we are not attached to them, they won't come in between us and God.

Theoretically, it is possible to own things and not be attached to them, but I don't think anyone can be completely detached. Moreover, the more things we own the more things we have to manage and that takes time away from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

"How important is personal happiness? What I am referring to is having material possessions, engaging in recreational activities that are fun, and engaging in activities that are physically pleasurable, oft referred to as the things of the flesh."
Does hiking, bird watching, star-gazing, going to museums, libraries and observatories fall under materialistic recreational activities? If not could you identify what these materialistic recreational activities are?

Recreational activities are not materialistic. Recreational activities can be fun, or they can be educational or good for health. There is nothing inherently wrong with recreational activities. It is all a matter of how much time we have and how we choose to spend our time.

My point was to distinguish what we do for our personal happiness (self) from what people do for God and other people. I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with personal happiness but it seems to me that is all most people care about in American society. I could be wrong, but this is just my impression from observation.

Where is the line between what we do for self and and what we do for God and other people? It is not always clearly defined but I think motives are a good indicator. Since we cannot know the motives of others it is not our place to judge.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is the catch. "All the major religions", in this context, is defined in a very exotic way. The expression has become essentially meaningless, if not worse than meaningless.

You are right. I should have said "many of the major religions."

 

[Sleeppy]

If flesh profits nothing, why did God cause it to be?

 

[Trailblazer]

If flesh profits nothing, why did God cause it to be?

We need a body because our spirit (soul) needs a way to express itself while we are alive on earth.

The soul animates the human body while we are alive on earth. The soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself. The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth, a place to house the soul. The soul is our self, our true reality; the body is just our outer shell.

The soul is the sum total of the personality so it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind remains the same person, and he goes to the spiritual world where he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. At that time the soul takes on another form, a form comprised of heavenly elements that exist in the the spiritual realm.

 

[Sleeppy]

We need a body because our spirit (soul) needs a way to express itself while we are alive on earth.

The soul animates the human body while we are alive on earth. The soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself. The body is just a vehicle that carries the soul around while we are alive on earth, a place to house the soul. The soul is our self, our true reality; the body is just our outer shell.

The soul is the sum total of the personality so it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind remains the same person, and he goes to the spiritual world where he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. At that time the soul takes on another form, a form comprised of heavenly elements that exist in the the spiritual realm.

That would indicate profit: human spirits profit expression on Earth. But is the premise accurate?

Does God need a body to express Himself on Earth? Do all spirits on Earth have bodies?

 

[Trailblazer]

Does God need a body to express Himself on Earth? Do all spirits on Earth have bodies?

Yes, I believe that God needs a body to express Himself on earth. That is why God sends Prophets/Messengers, to express Himself.
Yes, I believe that all spirits on earth have bodies because a spirit cannot exist on earth without a body to contain it.

 

[Sleeppy]

Yes, I believe that God needs a body to express Himself on earth. That is why God sends Prophets/Messengers, to express Himself.
Yes, I believe that all spirits on earth have bodies because a spirit cannot exist on earth without a body to contain it.

The same God that hovered over the face of the waters? Or spoke from a burning bush? Or Sinai? Or resided in the Holy of Holies? Or spoke from Heaven, concerning Jesus? -- These were all expressions on Earth, without a body.

On another hand, Elisha was given a double-portion of Elijah's spirit. What does that say?

Jesus implies separation between the Spirit of Truth, himself, and even God.

Spirits affect matter; they don't require it. They don't describe persons (which are conglomerates of spirits), but energies-- as far as I can tell from the evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

The same God that hovered over the face of the waters? Or spoke from a burning bush? Or Sinai? Or resided in the Holy of Holies? Or spoke from Heaven, concerning Jesus? -- These were all expressions on Earth, without a body.

I believe the Burning Bush and the Dove that came to Jesus were instances of God communicating to Moses and Jesus through the Holy Spirit. God Himself, the Essence of God, never shows up on Earth. It remains hidden. When and how do you think God spoke from heaven?

On another hand, Elisha was given a double-portion of Elijah's spirit. What does that say?

Jesus implies separation between the Spirit of Truth, himself, and even God.

I do not know the Bible very well so I do not know about these things. How did Jesus imply separation between the Spirit of Truth, himself, and God?

Spirits affect matter; they don't require it. They don't describe persons (which are conglomerates of spirits), but energies-- as far as I can tell from the evidence.

How can spirits express themselves on earth without bodies?
I believe that the Holy Spirit when it is released in the world affects all of creation, but it requires someone to bring it to the world, someone like Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have to consider the goal; companionship with God, eternal life, world peace, and inner well being. I myself live for my family, and friends.

If you do not believe in God then it would make sense to live for family and friends, but those are important even for believers.

Perhaps if everyone could afford an education we would all be more selfless, and enpowered.

Why would education make us more selfless? However, it would give us more choices if it gave us more income, thus maybe more empowered.

But what is the ultimate aspiration and its goal, and how is that fulfilling. Faith in God gives one an aspiration, that quite frankly many dont have at all.

Yes, if we have genuine faith in God it gives us the motivation to do something with our lives, to aspire to something greater than the mundane, to always try harder to improve ourselves. I like this quote I found recently:

"Our past is not the thing that matters so much in this world as what we intend to do with our future. The inestimable value of religion is that when a man is vitally connected with it, through a real and living belief in it and in the Prophet Who brought it, he receives a strength greater than his own which helps him to develop his good characteristics and overcome his bad ones. The whole purpose of religion is to change not only our thoughts but our acts; when we believe in God and His Prophet and His Teachings, we find we are growing, even though we perhaps thought ourselves incapable of growth and change!"
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 3, 1943)
Lights of Guidance (second part)

Living for others takes discretion; the selfless giving to the selfish would only drain my energy, and waste my time.

I would rather spend my time giving to those who want my help. Those who are selfish already found their answers so they don’t need me.

Total selfishness leads to only vanity, and emptiness. I think a lot of people fall into selfishness because nobody cares about them.

That might be true but it is also true that many selfish people have a lot of people that care about them and people who they care about... They just care more about themselves than those other people. It could have something to do with a sense of insecurity in that they are afraid that they need more than they really need to be happy, so they grab onto everything they can. The vanity is because they need to look good to others in order to have value and impress people. This is so sad, especially when it continues into older age.

Ideally in heaven everyone would be supremely caring of each other, and deserving of everything. Thats ideal heart. In reality humans are just not that way. We only have time to work with able people. Theres precious little time to help people up whom are needy.

That is true, time is always an issue in this life, so we have to choose between self and others. It is a constant batter because we have two natures, a lower selfish nature and a higher spiritual nature. Unfortunately, most people are more selfish than spiritual. Most people have families and friends who come before strangers in need.

I suppose you could create an utopian system of government, wealth, and distribution of what is needed toward everyone, but who has the heart and understanding of people to achieve such a thing. Whos going to make the difference. Most people would call it delusion to believe in such utopias.

That is the Baha’i Vision and they are working on it right now. They have been working on it for nigh on 100 years. The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh.

We do not need the heart or understanding as much as we need faith in Baha’u’llah and that what He revealed is the Truth from God. I do not have that much faith in God but I have enough faith in Baha’u’llah to make up for what is lacking.

Survival is for the strong, and those who diligently work, and wisely conserve, and give with discretion. Everybody gives for the sake of prosperity of others and for themselves. Very hard to live leaving self out of the equation.

Self needs to be included in the equation because we need some strength from which to draw, in order to have something to give to others. Hard work, discretion and wise conservation are necessary.

So my point is, what kind of selflessness does God desire for us?

That is a very good question and one I am still trying to answer, which is why I posted this thread. Just how selfless does God want us to be? I think I know but then I am concerned that I could be wrong. I just want to do what God wants me to do, but my interpretation of scriptures could be biased by my own personal experiences.

For example, I used to be very selfish a long time ago, so I probably err on the side of caution and deny self now because I do not want to ever be that way again. But maybe I go too far and disregard anything I might want for myself, and things I need to do in practical matters. On the other hand, I read what I read in the Writings of Baha’u’llah and I can only understand it one way because it is very clearly written, unlike some of the Bible which can be interpreted in more than one way. So I feel guilty of I want anything or need anything for myself. I am not sure how much of this is coming from the religion or whether it might be a psychological problem I have since I have always been this way, even before my religious phase.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see the body and spirit as reflections of each other. If going by scripture

1 Corinthians 6:19-2 and
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

-Do you mean body as a metaphor for, say, greed and attachment from ego rather than actual physical things like our bodies?

The body is a temple as says scripture. In my words it also Is the spirit not a tool or vehicle. You use it as worship. Your spirit connects your body and soul as one.

Thanks... That certainly is another way to view it. There are may different ways to view things, not only one is right. In Baha’i, we also say that the body is the temple of the soul. It is the doting on it that I see some people so that bothers me. Probably it bothers me because I was that way a long time ago and I can see it for what it is... but I could just be projecting on another person, so I could be wrong.

The lust of material things: lust of the bodys appearance, money, and cars is different than having these things as christians and not using them as idols. While we can generalize peoples relationship with material things, I dont see it wise.

No, I do not really know what others’ relationship is to material things. I only see what is on the surface.

So its not material things you speak of? They are just labels that seperate different types of attachment?

True, material things are just one kind of attachment. People are attached to many other things as well.

The expression of art is also its mediums. The art is an idol of the soul and vis versa. Some have passion for car driving. Some working their dream job. Some the feeling of beeing successful in the things one buys and the people they care of. All of these are material. The difference is, they reflect our passion of the soul and by the spirit. Not all who have material things seperate themselves from god.

I understand your point. Material things are not intrinsically bad. It is the motivation that matters. It is what they represent to us. Passion of the soul, I like that. I am very passionate about my cats. I love nothing more than them.

Are you sure its more the intent and attachment to these things and not the things themselves?

Yes, that is what I said above.

 

[Sunstone]

How important is personal happiness? What I am referring to is having material possessions, engaging in recreational activities that are fun, and engaging in activities that are physically pleasurable, oft referred to as the things of the flesh.

One way to look at this issue -- especially in terms of American society -- is to study the consistent efforts made since the 1920s to turn Americans into mere consumers of products and services. If you are not aware of what I'm talking about, The Century of the Self is a good documentary to begin with.