Liberals admit July 4th parades are right wing

[dust1n]

Aren't liberals waiting for the next '4th of July'? ;]

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Father,

Between conservatives and liberals, which side constantly attempts to undermine the constitution and trample people's rights, freedom and equality (the very values that define America)?

Isn't that why you guys call it 'a living Constitution?' Isn't that why you guys find a right to privacy (in Griswold v Connecticut) in the 'penumbras and emanations' of the Constitution? Isn't why you guys seek to pass campaign finance laws that usurp First Amendment? Isn't that why you guys seek to ban guns in violation of the Second Amendment? Isn't that why you guys do things like Waco (liberal Janet Reno) and massacre Americans? Isn't that why you guys wanted SCOFLA to violate the law in Florida in 2000?

 

[tumbleweed41]

... done by people with a liberal persuasion.

Liberal persuasion?
Like those who founded our country?

The men who met in secret to create a new Constitution because the Articles of Confederation had created a Government to weak to consolidate the States under common laws?

The men who specifically gave Congress the power to levy taxes? Taxes backed by Representation.
“To impose taxes when the public exigencies require them is an obligation of the most sacred character, especially with a free people.”---James Monroe

Men like John Adams, who signed the very first Health Care mandate into law in 1978? A law requiring sailors to pay a tax to the United States government which in turn would provide medical care to them.

Men who felt that Freedom of Religion protects ALL religions, even if you do not practice any religion at all? And that the Government should never support any religious ideals over another.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
~First Amendment, Bill of Rights of the Constitution

“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.”
~James Madison

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
~Thomas Jefferson, as President, in a letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802


If only we had more patriotic men and women of liberal persuasion in office today.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Isn't that why you guys call it 'a living Constitution?

An ideology supported by the Founders of our country.

"Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence and deem them like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. I knew that age well; I belonged to it and labored with it. It deserved well of its country. It was very like the present but without the experience of the present; and forty years of experience in government is worth a century of book-reading; and this they would say themselves were they to rise from the dead."
Thomas Jefferson, letter to H. Tompkinson, 12 July 1816

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi tumbleweed,

Liberal persuasion?
Like those who founded our country?

The men who met in secret to create a new Constitution because the Articles of Confederation had created a Government to weak to consolidate the States under common laws?

The men who specifically gave Congress the power to levy taxes? Taxes backed by Representation.
“To impose taxes when the public exigencies require them is an obligation of the most sacred character, especially with a free people.”---James Monroe

Men like John Adams, who signed the very first Health Care mandate into law in 1978? A law requiring sailors to pay a tax to the United States government which in turn would provide medical care to them.

Men who felt that Freedom of Religion protects ALL religions, even if you do not practice any religion at all? And that the Government should never support any religious ideals over another.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
~First Amendment, Bill of Rights of the Constitution

“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.”
~James Madison

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”
~Thomas Jefferson, as President, in a letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802


If only we had more patriotic men and women of liberal persuasion in office today.

It's a deal. Let's go back to a federal government with no Department of Education, Commerce, Interior, Agriculture, Energy and also no Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

To sacred to be touched? Who believes that, we have an amendment process. Nice strawman.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Isn't why you guys seek to pass campaign finance laws that usurp First Amendment?

You mean laws limiting corporate influence over politicians?

“I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”

Thomas Jefferson

 

[tumbleweed41]

To sacred to be touched? Who believes that, we have an amendment process. Nice strawman.

What strawman? I am addressing the liberal persuasion of our forefathers.

"I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

Thomas Jefferson, letter to H. Tompkinson, 12 July 1816

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi tumbleweed,

You mean laws limiting corporate influence over politicians?

And I'm sure you're with Elana Kagen as she argued before the high court that the government would ban books that advocated for or against a candidate. What part of First Amendment do you not understand?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Hi tumbleweed,



It's a deal. Let's go back to a federal government with no Department of Education, Commerce, Interior, Agriculture, Energy and also no Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

That would be counter to the progressive ideals of our forefathers.

As I quoted Mr Jefferson above,

"....We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Tumbleweed,

What strawman? I am addressing the liberal persuasion of our forefathers.

Who thinks the Constitution is too sacred to touch?

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Tumbleweed,

That would be counter to the progressive ideals of our forefathers.

Actually no, they had none of those things when the nation was founded. Oh, I also forgot the income tax, do away with that too. Those Founders with this small government sound more right-wing than the modern Republican Party.

 

[Skwim]

Aren't liberals waiting for the next '4th of July'? ;

Not like conservatives are. The 4th is a great opportunity for conservatives to again convince themselves of what good citizens they are, because in practice they seldom come close. Their patriotism is pretty much all bells and whistles (flags and fireworks) whereas liberal patriotism is more a matter of concerns and commitment (work and results).

 

[tumbleweed41]

And I'm sure you're with Elana Kagen as she argued before the high court that the government would ban books that advocated for or against a candidate. What part of First Amendment do you not understand?

You would be wrong. As Thomas Jefferson stated "Where the press is free, and every man able to read, all is safe."

"I am really mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, a fact like this can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too, as an offence against religion; that a question about the sale of a book can be carried before the civil magistrate...."

Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Nicolas Gouin Dufief, Philadelphia bookseller (1814)

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Skwim,

Not like conservatives are. The 4th is a great opportunity for conservatives to again convince themselves of what good citizens they are, because in practice they seldom come close. Their patriotism is pretty much all bells and whistles (flags and fireworks) whereas liberal patriotism is more a matter of concerns and commitment (work and results).

Another post short on specifics, you're good at this!

 

[dust1n]

Not like conservatives are. The 4th is a great opportunity for conservatives to again convince themselves of what good citizens they are, because in practice they seldom come close. Their patriotism is pretty much all bells and whistles (flags and fireworks) whereas liberal patriotism is more a matter of concerns and commitment (work and results).

I suppose liberals are waiting for anything on any date really. Conservatives are hoping for a quasi-reenactment of the literal 4th of July.

Like, you know at a right-wing rally/assembly/revolution, etc. There are going to be those guys dressed like Ben Franklin or Tom Revere or some ****. They will carry those little flutes and remake bells just to crack them. Teabags, even, hanging from their caps as they indiscriminately kill homosexuals and Indians. Probably follow a fake Washington even though he was one of the worst generals of the Revolution.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Tumbleweed,

You would be wrong. As Thomas Jefferson stated "Where the press is free, and every man able to read, all is safe."

"I am really mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, a fact like this can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too, as an offence against religion; that a question about the sale of a book can be carried before the civil magistrate...."

Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Nicolas Gouin Dufief, Philadelphia bookseller (1814)

1. Do you agree with Kagan about the government banning books that advocate for or against a candidate?

2. Have you read the newspapers around our Founding and in our early years? If you did, you would not be making your argument.

Amazon.com: Presidential Campaigns: From George Washington to George W. Bush (9780195167160): Paul F. Boller Jr.: Books

 

[tumbleweed41]

Hi Father,



Isn't that why you guys call it 'a living Constitution?

An ideology supported by the Founders of our country.

"Some men look at constitutions with sanctimonious reverence and deem them like the ark of the covenant, too sacred to be touched. They ascribe to the men of the preceding age a wisdom more than human and suppose what they did to be beyond amendment. I knew that age well; I belonged to it and labored with it. It deserved well of its country. It was very like the present but without the experience of the present; and forty years of experience in government is worth a century of book-reading; and this they would say themselves were they to rise from the dead."
Thomas Jefferson, letter to H. Tompkinson, 12 July 1816

What strawman? I am addressing the liberal persuasion of our forefathers.

"I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

Thomas Jefferson, letter to H. Tompkinson, 12 July 1816

Tumbleweed,



Actually no, they had none of those things when the nation was founded. Oh, I also forgot the income tax, do away with that too. Those Founders with this small government sound more right-wing than the modern Republican Party.

Yes Joe, I know they did not have those things when the country was founded.

"...laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind..."

"...We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

And the "small Government" of the Articles of Confederation was replaced with the much larger Government of the United States Constitution.

 

[Skwim]

Hi Skwim,
Another post short on specifics, you're good at this!

Hey, when a situation doesn't call for them, why bother? But I am pleased that you don't disagree with my assessment, which is very un-conservative-like. Sure you won't be kicked out of club for displaying this slip of candor?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Tumbleweed,1. Do you agree with Kagan about the government banning books that advocate for or against a candidate?

I told you I did not.

You would be wrong. As Thomas Jefferson stated "Where the press is free, and every man able to read, all is safe."

"I am really mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, a fact like this can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too, as an offence against religion; that a question about the sale of a book can be carried before the civil magistrate...."

Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Nicolas Gouin Dufief, Philadelphia bookseller (1814)

2. Have you read the newspapers around our Founding and in our early years? If you did, you would not be making your argument.

My argument is for freedom of the press and freedom of speech.
I also advocate limiting corporations from undue influence over Government.
As our Founding fathers also advocated.

“I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.”--- Thomas Jefferson.

Did you know that most states in the early days of the nation had laws on the books that made any political contribution by corporations a criminal offense?

Were you aware that after the nation’s founding, corporations were granted charters by the state as they are today. Unlike today, however, corporations were only permitted to exist 20 or 30 years and could only deal in one commodity, could not hold stock in other companies, and their property holdings were limited to what they needed to accomplish their business goals.