Liberal Christians I need some things cleared up

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm conservative, or traditionalist(fundamentalist is too reactionary for me). Nothings going to change that. But I need a few things cleared up.

1: If Hell doesn't exist, where did Hitler, bin Laden, and Vlad the Impaler go? If a person lives good a morally his entire life, don't you think he or she would get upset that those three are there?

You do realize that Vlad the Impaler was Christian, right?

 

[ronandcarol]

Liberal Christians I need some things cleared up
1. If Hell doesn't exist, where did Hitler, bin Laden, and Vlad the Impaler go? If a person lives good a morally his entire life, don't you think he or she would get upset that those three are there?
Hitler, bin Laden and this Vlad guy are in their graves waiting for Jesus to return and separate the sheep from the goats, at which time we will all be separated to where we are to spend eternity.
2: I know you emphasis love and forgiveness, a true christian should. However, you're stepping back from the laws makes me feel like you have some humanist fear of the public's opinion. Christ said he is love, but he also said he is the way and that he came to affirm the laws.
Christians don't necessarily step back from the law, it is that the Spirit of God within us helps us to walk according to the law in faith. When you follow Jesus, you try your human best to live like Jesus did, which will help you to follow the law. Jesus said. :if you love me keep my commandments."
3: You say judge them by their fruit, but your more quick to judge your conservative brothers and sisters more than anyone else. I find that to be some kind of misdirection, which again feels like your scared of public opinion.
I feel that people have this totally wrong about Christians. If and when we express our opinion, or feelings about what the Bible states about a specific topic, immediately people say we are judgmental. Things are happening now that are not in tune to what the Bible says, when Christians stand up for what they believe, they are persecuted!
4: I respect and love others who do not follow as I do. I just don't see why that means I change my belief system simply because their in close proximity to me. Christ broke bread with the thief yes, but he he did not commit theft.
Your 4th point says it like it really is happening today. Christians are to love your neighbor, all people, as they love their Lord and Savior. That doesn't mean we have to change what we think or believe in because they think or believe different to us. That is where this world is heading though. The great deceiver is stirring up trouble on all fronts. If he can convince Eve to eat the apple that God just told not to eat, how much easier will it be for him to deceive people who haven't been in daily communication with God?
ronandcarol

 

[Grandliseur]

I'm conservative, or traditionalist(fundamentalist is too reactionary for me). Nothings going to change that. But I need a few things cleared up.

1: If Hell doesn't exist, where did Hitler, bin Laden, and Vlad the Impaler go? If a person lives good a morally his entire life, don't you think he or she would get upset that those three are there?

2: I know you emphasis love and forgiveness, a true christian should. However, you're stepping back from the laws makes me feel like you have some humanist fear of the public's opinion. Christ said he is love, but he also said he is the way and that he came to affirm the laws.

3: You say judge them by their fruit, but your more quick to judge your conservative brothers and sisters more than anyone else. I find that to be some kind of misdirection, which again feels like your scared of public opinion.

4: I respect and love others who do not follow as I do. I just don't see why that means I change my belief system simply because their in close proximity to me. Christ broke bread with the thief yes, but he he did not commit theft.

This is no a judgement. These are just the four major issues of your faith that I need clearing up.

If I bundle my self with the liberalists, I would be incorrect; if I bundle myself with the fundamentalist, I might not believe in some of their professed dogma. I am a by-the-Bible believer.

The reason I answer your question is because of the #1 question. There is no life after death, only life after the dead one gets resurrected. Without a resurrection, the dead one remains dead and destroyed. The promise is that "the soul who sins shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4). It is not - the soul who is evil shall be tormented forever in hell. Adam was told that he would return to dust, not hell-fire.

Isaiah 26:14: They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all remembrance of them to perish.
Isaiah 33:1: Ah, you destroyer, who yourself have not been destroyed, you traitor, whom none has betrayed! When you have ceased to destroy, you will be destroyed; and when you have finished betraying, they will betray you.
Psalms 101:8: Morning by morning will I destroy all the wicked of the land; To cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of Jehovah.
Psalms 103:4: Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; Who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;
Matthew 7:13: Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.
II Peter 3:7: but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
​

In the above, it may be understood that all wicked are destroyed. They are no more. If they were in some kind of hell, being alive there to feel pain, the following could not be true:

Eccl 9:5-10 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, hath now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun. . . . 10Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. (Webster)​

Love
How is Love defined in scripture? Our love of God is defined as strict obedience to God and Christ and that those who do not obey are seen not to love them. Mercy is given for those who in baptism have dedicated their lives to serve Christ and do so at their best ability. There is no mercy for the wicked.
Our love of neighbor is defined as assisting in teaching the things of God, and in providing practical assistance, clothing, and sustenance when needed. The one who ignores the needs of a righteous believer while having in plenty has foregone the faith.

Forgiveness
While we are admonished to forgive, this does not mean that all things must be forgiven. The wife whose husband commits adultery is permitted to divorce and remarry - by scriptures, this is. Our forgiveness, even God's - in no way means that there isn't punishment. At times, God forgives only if the person dies, and then that person may be destroyed forever. Death nullifies all sin, but does not put one in line for God's gifts of eternal life.

 

[Windwalker]

1: If Hell doesn't exist, where did Hitler, bin Laden, and Vlad the Impaler go? If a person lives good a morally his entire life, don't you think he or she would get upset that those three are there?

If you are trying to tie your notions of justice with some imagined eternal law of justice, that is a projection of ourselves and the cultures which produced us. Hell as a metaphor works, because to live life in violence to others is to live in a state of isolation, anger, and separation. The experience of connection with others is a much healthier lived reality than to be in our own isolated hell. That others are victimized by those who are sick that way, is the sometimes tragic reality of this world. The notion of vengeance applied to God as the ultimate punisher, is not a salve to make that go away. There is a difference of course between justice, and vengeance. The idea of a burning, punishing hell is not justice, but vengeance.

2: I know you emphasis love and forgiveness, a true christian should. However, you're stepping back from the laws makes me feel like you have some humanist fear of the public's opinion. Christ said he is love, but he also said he is the way and that he came to affirm the laws.

Hardly the case! First, it's not 'stepping back' from anything, but instead recognizing the our ideas of the laws are limited to our capacity to love. That we can see that the 'legalistic' interpretations of laws lesson the realization of their fulfillment through love, which means it's okay to not get hung up on the letters over the spirit of love, is something Jesus Christ taught, extensively.

3: You say judge them by their fruit, but your more quick to judge your conservative brothers and sisters more than anyone else. I find that to be some kind of misdirection, which again feels like your scared of public opinion.

If I see a conservative bearing the fruits of the spirit, then I embrace them, seeing them in that light and not letting the way we interpret and translate truth differently override that concern. That's what it's supposed to be. And believe me, if I were scared of others opinions, why then wouldn't we all be fundamentalists who judge others like theres no tommorow? They think everyone but themselves is going to hell. Why not believe like them to avoid their wagging fingers?

4: I respect and love others who do not follow as I do. I just don't see why that means I change my belief system simply because their in close proximity to me. Christ broke bread with the thief yes, but he he did not commit theft.

Who is asking you to? The only thing I would say, is that if you find your faith moving in such as way as that certain ways of thinking aren't flexible enough for you, then you can rest assured there are other ways to understand these things that are legitimate without becoming hypocritical to faith.

 

[anonymous9887]

I'm conservative, or traditionalist(fundamentalist is too reactionary for me). Nothings going to change that. But I need a few things cleared up.

1: If Hell doesn't exist, where did Hitler, bin Laden, and Vlad the Impaler go? If a person lives good a morally his entire life, don't you think he or she would get upset that those three are there?

2: I know you emphasis love and forgiveness, a true christian should. However, you're stepping back from the laws makes me feel like you have some humanist fear of the public's opinion. Christ said he is love, but he also said he is the way and that he came to affirm the laws.

3: You say judge them by their fruit, but your more quick to judge your conservative brothers and sisters more than anyone else. I find that to be some kind of misdirection, which again feels like your scared of public opinion.

4: I respect and love others who do not follow as I do. I just don't see why that means I change my belief system simply because their in close proximity to me. Christ broke bread with the thief yes, but he he did not commit theft.

This is no a judgement. These are just the four major issues of your faith that I need clearing up.

The 1st thing that is of concern to me is if your beliefs come from scripture or what is your view on the bible?
1. plain and simple they are asleep dead, and we don't know for sure how god has judged them, but many would assume to Gehenna which is the second death (meaning a permanent sleep)
2. We are to preach the good news, and we use bible principles to mold our approach
Ephesians 4:29
Colossians 4:6
Acts 17:3
Just as an example

 

[SinSaber]

5: Why do you guys constantly over generalize traditionalists and refuse to talk to them and see what their view is.

 

[Windwalker]

5: Why do you guys constantly over generalize traditionalists and refuse to talk to them and see what their view is.

Why did you not respond to my post, and then accuse us of refusing to talk? See post #24. Are you unwilling to have a conversation and share your view in a discussion with those who think differently?