LHP + Thelema = Luciferianism

[1137]

I realized this rather by accident, I seriously cannot escape the term lol.

Obviously we understand the LHP here, gaining knowledge of ourselves and the world around us to better our lives, climbing from the dung hill that is the world into the light, things of that nature. But Thelema tends to see the LHP as a group of "black brothers", those of us who come to deify the ego, feel a sense of objective superiority and control, what have you. The law of Thelema fits this just fine, but the problem is the aim of Thelema can, ultimately, better the external world on a grand scale. Even a star on its own orbit may be rammed by another who's orbit is lost. Luciferianism seems to mix these concepts, rising yourself from the the dung and then trying to help others do so as well, same as all the Luciferian archetypes. Just a thought.

 

[Iti oj]

luciferianism seems to mix these concepts, rising yourself from the the dung and then trying to help others do so as well, same as all the luciferian archetypes. Just a thought.

this is what i have been saying!

 

[nash8]

Praise Jesus!!! lol

 

[Mindmaster]

I confirmed that a long time ago. I would even say that at some levels ToS flirts with the same girl. A lot of the conversation about Xeper sounds damn close to "true will" talk.

 

[1137]

I confirmed that a long time ago. I would even say that at some levels ToS flirts with the same girl. A lot of the conversation about Xeper sounds damn close to "true will" talk.

Based on Setian posts in the Thelema DIR they seem to think they're the prophesized group come to expound on the Law. Shall we start with believing AL is purely divine inspiration on the belief in prophecy....

Then again I've only heard this from one member.

 

[Mindmaster]

Based on Setian posts in the Thelema DIR they seem to think they're the prophesized group come to expound on the Law. Shall we start with believing AL is purely divine inspiration on the belief in prophecy....

Then again I've only heard this from one member.

I would go with that because the Aeon of Set is apparently "after" the Aeon of Horus. No one gave a crap about it before, so my guess is perhaps and attempt to gain credibility via these old notions? (Please don't take this as an attack... I am merely exploring this observation)

Prophecy is a nice way of saying bulldoodood. Sorry, that's how I see it. My understanding of the "magical universe" eliminates the concept of finite absolutes therefore prophecy is equally garbage being based on the emo-mental-spiritual garbage bin of its utterer -- a well we don't have to drink from this being the future... etc..

 

[1137]

I would go with that because the Aeon of Set is apparently "after" the Aeon of Horus. No one gave a crap about it before, so my guess is perhaps and attempt to gain credibility via these old notions? (Please don't take this as an attack... I am merely exploring this observation)

Prophecy is a nice way of saying bulldoodood. Sorry, that's how I see it. My understanding of the "magical universe" eliminates the concept of finite absolutes therefore prophecy is equally garbage being based on the emo-mental-spiritual garbage bin of its utterer -- a well we don't have to drink from this being the future... etc..

Haha, I like this.

 

[Adramelek]

I would go with that because the Aeon of Set is apparently "after" the Aeon of Horus. No one gave a crap about it before, so my guess is perhaps and attempt to gain credibility via these old notions? (Please don't take this as an attack... I am merely exploring this observation)

Prophecy is a nice way of saying bulldoodood. Sorry, that's how I see it. My understanding of the "magical universe" eliminates the concept of finite absolutes therefore prophecy is equally garbage being based on the emo-mental-spiritual garbage bin of its utterer -- a well we don't have to drink from this being the future... etc..

To be perfectly honest, I'm not all that into prophecy, its not reliable and primarily up to personal interpretation. I've posted quotes from the BoCFbN in the Thelema DIR simply to try and make a distinction between the AEH and AES. In Liber AL Aleister Crowley is called a prophet, but I don't see him as such. Personally, I really don't know if the ToS or AES was prophesied in Liber AL, it just is not an interest of mine. There are Thelemites who question the relevance of Xeper, if they even consider it at all. And there are Setians who question the relevance of Thelema. I personally choose to Work with both on my Magical path as I have found them both to be relevant to me, just as I do the Words of Remanifestation, Runa, Xem, and Indulgence.

The Magical Formulae of the Aeon of Horus: "Do What Thou Wilt, Shall Be the Whole of the Law."
The Magical Formulae of the Aeon of Set: "Xepera-Xeper-Xeperu= I Have Come Into Being and by the Process of my Becoming (Remanifestation) I Have Become the Creator of That Which Has Come Into Being."

Xeper and Remanifest.
/Adramelek\

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There's really no escaping the influence of Thelema on modern Western occultism. That's just the way it is.

 

[Mindmaster]

There's really no escaping the influence of Thelema on modern Western occultism. That's just the way it is.

Strangely, I don't think Thelema was the lynch-pin I think Kenneth Grant was. You have to understand that Grant actually had contact with Crowley directly and was mentored by him for a number of years. After Crowley dies Grant befriends Austin Osman Spare and becomes almost a family member. Spare dies in obscurity, but bequeaths all his work to Grant and he then proceeds to write biographies and publish the work. With this information goes on to establish the Typhonian Order of the O.T.O. focused on the "Set Current" (hmm sounds familiar!). That group is reabsorbed into the New Isis order and voila... Here we are!

As you can see though.. basically Grant is more responsible for "modern methods" of magic than Crowley and without his work basically Spare would be an unknown eclectic... No one would have approached this "Set current" subject... etc.. This man is probably singly responsible for the fact that their is even a ToS and the entire realm of Chao Magick which would be completely unknown without his effort to expose it. Certainly, there is no direct relation to the ToS here, but it's the first time I am aware of the effort taking place. ToS is certainly a spiritual successor.

 

[crossfire]

One thing I've noticed about Crowley: what I've seen of his writings about Taoism, and its symbolism, I just have to scratch my head and say "huh?"

 

[Octavia156]

Based on Setian posts in the Thelema DIR they seem to think they're the prophesized group come to expound on the Law. Shall we start with believing AL is purely divine inspiration on the belief in prophecy....

Then again I've only heard this from one member.

the expounding refers to the encoded sequence in chapter 2 of Liber Al, nowhere does it say a group will expound the Law. just saying.

 

[Octavia156]

Strangely, I don't think Thelema was the lynch-pin I think Kenneth Grant was. You have to understand that Grant actually had contact with Crowley directly and was mentored by him for a number of years. After Crowley dies Grant befriends Austin Osman Spare and becomes almost a family member. Spare dies in obscurity, but bequeaths all his work to Grant and he then proceeds to write biographies and publish the work. With this information goes on to establish the Typhonian Order of the O.T.O. focused on the "Set Current" (hmm sounds familiar!). That group is reabsorbed into the New Isis order and voila... Here we are!

As you can see though.. basically Grant is more responsible for "modern methods" of magic than Crowley and without his work basically Spare would be an unknown eclectic... No one would have approached this "Set current" subject... etc.. This man is probably singly responsible for the fact that their is even a ToS and the entire realm of Chao Magick which would be completely unknown without his effort to expose it. Certainly, there is no direct relation to the ToS here, but it's the first time I am aware of the effort taking place. ToS is certainly a spiritual successor.

eeek.... what Grant have you read?

Grant indeed was very close to Crowley, in fact at one point he was set to become Heir to the Thelemic current.
But there is a good reason Crowley did not choose him in the end... Grant's brand of OTO is lovecraftian nonsense... it is dogmatic, cultish, sci-fi Thelema.
Not a fan, but do acknowledge Grant's genius - just think he went a bit mad.
As for O Spare... I don't think wanking over sigils in a hovel has had more effect on occultism than Crowleys prolific writings.
Chaos magick is useful, but wholely irresponsible, unchecked and undisciplined. Effective though..thus it can border on dangerous imo, at the very least it is lazy magick.

 

[Octavia156]

One thing I've noticed about Crowley: what I've seen of his writings about Taoism, and its symbolism, I just have to scratch my head and say "huh?"

what was confusing?

Perhaps you'd be interested to check out his interpretation of the Tao Teh King:

Liber CLVII - The Tao Teh King

 

[Adramelek]

eeek.... what Grant have you read?

Grant indeed was very close to Crowley, in fact at one point he was set to become Heir to the Thelemic current.
But there is a good reason Crowley did not choose him in the end... Grant's brand of OTO is lovecraftian nonsense... it is dogmatic, cultish, sci-fi Thelema.
Not a fan, but do acknowledge Grant's genius - just think he went a bit mad.
As for O Spare... I don't think wanking over sigils in a hovel has had more effect on occultism than Crowleys prolific writings.
Chaos magick is useful, but wholely irresponsible, unchecked and undisciplined. Effective though..thus it can border on dangerous imo, at the very least it is lazy magick.

As all Magic originates from within the mind, I see nothing wrong with incorporating the Lovecraftian mythos or Chaos Magic in ones own ritual magic. There is nothing nonsensical, dogmatic, or lazy about it. A primary premise of the Western, Hermetic Magical tradition is Self-Initiation and the ability to create your own magical system. The talent to construct ones own individual and effective magical working is a good sign of an Adept Left Hand Path Black Magician;

From the Book of Coming Forth by Night:
"The Satanist thought to approach Satan through ritual. Now let the Setian shun all recitation, for the text of another is an affront to the Self."

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ments-practices-dir/135009-call-old-ones.html

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

 

[1137]

As all Magic originates from within the mind, I see nothing wrong with incorporating the Lovecraftian mythos or Chaos Magic in ones own ritual magic. There is nothing nonsensical, dogmatic, or lazy about it. A primary premise of the Western, Hermetic Magical tradition is Self-Initiation and the ability to create your own magical system. The talent to construct ones own individual and effective magical working is a good sign of an Adept Left Hand Path Black Magician;

From the Book of Coming Forth by Night:
"The Satanist thought to approach Satan through ritual. Now let the Setian shun all recitation, for the text of another is an affront to the Self."

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ments-practices-dir/135009-call-old-ones.html

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

I've seen you post recitation type things, and all Setian texts you always quote are of another. But you know this, that's why you lash out

 

[Adramelek]

I've seen you post recitation type things, and all Setian texts you always quote are of another. But you know this, that's why you lash out

Sure, I may quote. However, I have also shown that I am capable of constructing my own works of magic, my own ritual texts. I don't lash out, unless someone lashes out at me. I am just saying we all learn from and barrow from others... all Magical philosophy is eclectic remanifestation. I don't see you lashing out at others who quote Crowley all the time on the forum, but who also utilize his style of writing in their own texts. You seem to me to be one sided about the whole thing DoP.

 

[crossfire]

what was confusing?

Perhaps you'd be interested to check out his interpretation of the Tao Teh King:

Liber CLVII - The Tao Teh King

Well yes. Even the "corrected version" got the trigrams wrong. Have you compared his version of the Tao Te Ching with the real thing? (You might then understand why I'm scratching my head.)

 

[Mindmaster]

eeek.... what Grant have you read?

Grant indeed was very close to Crowley, in fact at one point he was set to become Heir to the Thelemic current.
But there is a good reason Crowley did not choose him in the end... Grant's brand of OTO is lovecraftian nonsense... it is dogmatic, cultish, sci-fi Thelema.
Not a fan, but do acknowledge Grant's genius - just think he went a bit mad.
As for O Spare... I don't think wanking over sigils in a hovel has had more effect on occultism than Crowleys prolific writings.
Chaos magick is useful, but wholely irresponsible, unchecked and undisciplined. Effective though..thus it can border on dangerous imo, at the very least it is lazy magick.

There are two sides of the coin... Simplicity and complexity.. Spare was simple and refined where Crowley was pompous and ceremonial. There are more ways to use chaos magick than wanking it... Personally, I find that practice completely distracting so why bother if meditation or mantras and chanting work. Crowley's magic suffers from inefficiency.... A prime example... Say you had to erect a magical defense... You'd have to hit the books, prepare the ritual according to correspondences, and obtain everything required. A chaos magician would already have a defensive magical servitor in tow and merely launch it on its way in a few seconds, or could create one in a manner of minutes via a sigilization and do the same. As a daily PRACTICAL magickal paradigm one is useful and one is impossible. They both work, but in a modern world there are times when it is not advisable to be prancing around murmuring god names. They BOTH work -- just one can be applied covertly and one requires setup.

Grant himself... Not a great a person as his inheritors, but I simply give credit where it is due. Grant's relationship to this whole thing is similar to Israel Regardie's, in comparison to The Golden Dawn, that a great amount of Spare's work would be lost to obscurity, and few Thelemites would flirt with the Typhonian current. And as great as Crowley would seem 99% of his work was simply borrowed from others. If you read the work of his predecessors much of what he was doing was copied verbatim or with minor alterations. Surprisingly, I think his major contribution aka _The Book of the Law_ was more relevant than any of his other work. It stacks up pretty well in regard to works like _Tao Te Ching_ and the like and fresh perspectives are always nice, but I am aware Crowley studied that work intensely as well.