Letting go of God for science--where to begin?

[truthseekerTX]

I am shedding my Christian ideals and looking to gain knowledge (yay!). My first instinct was to go out and seek things like 'The God Delusion,' 'A History of God,' 'Jesus, Interrupted' etc to help me prove that Jesus, The Bible and God were all fictitious. I then heard a few people say that the best thing to do when trying to make this 'transition' is not to look for writings and sources to debunk your faith, but to start by learning.

That sounds like a vague difference but by that I mean I have now shed the chains of Creationism and discovered that there is this whole valid and truly amazing concept of...dun DUN! SCIENCE! When thinking of all there is to now learn about this universe, it is utterly overwhelming!

I want to read Sagan and Darwin and Hawking all at the same time! And I probably want to read another 20 authors I don't even know about! My new 'learning' period isn't even two weeks old yet so I am afraid of jumping into something that will leave me more confused. Also, Christianity is still a bit of a sensitive subject since I am only newly removed so I may have to work up to such strident things like Hitchins and Dawkins. (The main thing that bothers me about atheism so far is the anger, but I suppose that depends on what you feel religion and the religious have done to you, personally.)

As someone who really has very little understanding of science as a whole beyond what is taught in high school, how difficult is it to understand things like 'Origin of Species' or 'Cosmos'?

I consider myself to be an intelligent person (former Christianity aside), but are their works more for the intermediate scientist or would this be a good place to start? I have watched some Sagan clips on YouTube and he seems to break it down in a way that is fairly easy for the every man to grasp.

I realize that asking where one should start in learning everything about the origin of the Universe is in itself a ridiculous question, I am hoping there might be a few of you here who have gone through this and can tell me what you found most interesting and helpful in your journey from believer to atheist.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Sunstone]

I think Sagan would be an excellent place to start. So would any of Richard Dawkins' science books (as perhaps opposed to his "angry atheist", The God Delusion). Stephen Gould also writes some good books on evolution, although I find his style a bit trying at times. Not that the ideas themselves are difficult, but that his writing style is sometimes difficult.

Darwin's Origin might be a challenge in the sense that the language is old (clear, but old) and so much has been learned since he wrote it.

As for texts on Christianity, Walter Kaufmann's Critique of Religion and Philosophy was written well before the era of today's prominent atheists. It's not an "angry atheist" book by any means. But it critiques religion from the standpoint of someone who knows Western theology and philosophy intimately.

 

[AdityaMookerjee]

I am shedding my Christian ideals and looking to gain knowledge (yay!). My first instinct was to go out and seek things like 'The God Delusion,' 'A History of God,' 'Jesus, Interrupted' etc to help me prove that Jesus, The Bible and God were all fictitious. I then heard a few people say that the best thing to do when trying to make this 'transition' is not to look for writings and sources to debunk your faith, but to start by learning.

That sounds like a vague difference but by that I mean I have now shed the chains of Creationism and discovered that there is this whole valid and truly amazing concept of...dun DUN! SCIENCE! When thinking of all there is to now learn about this universe, it is utterly overwhelming!

I want to read Sagan and Darwin and Hawking all at the same time! And I probably want to read another 20 authors I don't even know about! My new 'learning' period isn't even two weeks old yet so I am afraid of jumping into something that will leave me more confused. Also, Christianity is still a bit of a sensitive subject since I am only newly removed so I may have to work up to such strident things like Hitchins and Dawkins. (The main thing that bothers me about atheism so far is the anger, but I suppose that depends on what you feel religion and the religious have done to you, personally.)

As someone who really has very little understanding of science as a whole beyond what is taught in high school, how difficult is it to understand things like 'Origin of Species' or 'Cosmos'?

I consider myself to be an intelligent person (former Christianity aside), but are their works more for the intermediate scientist or would this be a good place to start? I have watched some Sagan clips on YouTube and he seems to break it down in a way that is fairly easy for the every man to grasp.

I realize that asking where one should start in learning everything about the origin of the Universe is in itself a ridiculous question, I am hoping there might be a few of you here who have gone through this and can tell me what you found most interesting and helpful in your journey from believer to atheist.

Thanks in advance.

People don't believe in God, because of divinity. Divinity is the perception of a person who might, or might not see the perception in the self. The idea, that one can find no fault, leads to the idea, that everything is perfect. The idea of perfection is later to finding no positive or negative issues. People just feel positive, because they feel no cause to be. I mean, the same idea of a mother towards her child.

 

[Twilight Hue]

He he. . This might help a bit. :0D

[youtube]4qymoktf0wY[/youtube]
I Know More Than God. - YouTube

 

[truthseekerTX]

Thanks, Sunstone! Sagan has been really easy to understand thus far. I've only been deconverted for about 9 days (that still sounds weird), but I was immediately sad to learn he had already passed --for what that's worth. I assume when I get to the next stage, I'll feel the same about Hitchens.

Can you recommend a more 'modern' book on evolution that might be easier to get through?



Nowhere man --That video makes some good, clear points. There are obviously still parts of me that says "God wanted us to have faith in believe in him and he never said he'd give us all the answers. What's the point of testing a people and asking them to have faith if you provide all the facts? If we had hard facts of his existence, only fools would not believe and worship him." I know that's still my indoctrination speaking, but is precisely why I am looking to expand my wealth of knowledge.

Any articles/videos/books any of you can recommend is greatly appreciated!

 

[Twilight Hue]

Nowhere man --That video makes some good, clear points. There are obviously still parts of me that says "God wanted us to have faith in believe in him and he never said he'd give us all the answers. What's the point of testing a people and asking them to have faith if you provide all the facts? If we had hard facts of his existence, only fools would not believe and worship him." I know that's still my indoctrination speaking, but is precisely why I am looking to expand my wealth of knowledge.

Any articles/videos/books any of you can recommend is greatly appreciated!

You know I had those same thoughts cross my mind as well. Then it occured that the main characters portrayed in the Bible all had interventions and contacts that strengthened them whereas the faith requirement is exempted. Thats when things started to smell fishy about the whole faith thing. Like someone pulling the wool over the eyes saying faith is necessary when in fact the Bible characters never needed to exercise any faith.

When I left Christianity I just chilled out and just observed the world play out for awhile resisting any urge to embellish or interpret just to see what was really going on for a bit. Obviously not requiring my input. That was better than books for the time being. I like reading, yet my recommendations would be whatever fancys your own particular tastes. Not mine. Works better that way. The only thing i can recommend deals with Zen and related.

Of course like others, I do like Dawkins book, " The God Delusion" and Sagons "Demon World" Esp Carl Sagon. :0)

 

[lunakilo]

I am shedding my Christian ideals and looking to gain knowledge (yay!). My first instinct was to go out and seek things like 'The God Delusion,' 'A History of God,' 'Jesus, Interrupted' etc to help me prove that Jesus, The Bible and God were all fictitious. I then heard a few people say that the best thing to do when trying to make this 'transition' is not to look for writings and sources to debunk your faith, but to start by learning.

That sounds like a vague difference but by that I mean I have now shed the chains of Creationism and discovered that there is this whole valid and truly amazing concept of...dun DUN! SCIENCE! When thinking of all there is to now learn about this universe, it is utterly overwhelming!

I want to read Sagan and Darwin and Hawking all at the same time! And I probably want to read another 20 authors I don't even know about! My new 'learning' period isn't even two weeks old yet so I am afraid of jumping into something that will leave me more confused. Also, Christianity is still a bit of a sensitive subject since I am only newly removed so I may have to work up to such strident things like Hitchins and Dawkins. (The main thing that bothers me about atheism so far is the anger, but I suppose that depends on what you feel religion and the religious have done to you, personally.)

As someone who really has very little understanding of science as a whole beyond what is taught in high school, how difficult is it to understand things like 'Origin of Species' or 'Cosmos'?

I consider myself to be an intelligent person (former Christianity aside), but are their works more for the intermediate scientist or would this be a good place to start? I have watched some Sagan clips on YouTube and he seems to break it down in a way that is fairly easy for the every man to grasp.

I realize that asking where one should start in learning everything about the origin of the Universe is in itself a ridiculous question, I am hoping there might be a few of you here who have gone through this and can tell me what you found most interesting and helpful in your journey from believer to atheist.

Thanks in advance.

Since I have never been a religious person I cannot claim to ever have gone through what you are going through, so I can't help you there.

But if you are looking for to understand stuff and need some place to start I can recommend a guy I stumbled onto by chance named Neil deGrasse Tyson. He wrote some books, but I suggest starting by searching for some clips about him on YouTube.
You could start with this one:
[youtube]Ti3mtDC2fQo[/youtube]
Neil Tyson presentation about intelligent design - YouTube

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Stephen Gould also writes some good books on evolution, although I find his style a bit trying at times

Really? I find him to be a superb writer.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am shedding my Christian ideals and looking to gain knowledge (yay!).

It seems to me that you're making some hasty and naive generalizations.

 

[Jainarayan]

I am shedding my Christian ideals and looking to gain knowledge (yay!). ...

That sounds like a vague difference but by that I mean I have now shed the chains of Creationism and discovered that there is this whole valid and truly amazing concept of...dun DUN! SCIENCE! When thinking of all there is to now learn about this universe, it is utterly overwhelming!

Might I respectfully ask why you feel science is incompatible with a belief in God? I am unabashedly monist, henotheistic, panendeistic, panentheistic and any other -theistic combination you can come up with, and I am also unabashedly and firmly entrenched in our current model of the universe(s), physics and cosmology, and the evolution of life. I can find no conflict between science and theism. I can even reconcile Intelligent Design to the extent it meshes with science. But this is not about me, I simply am curious to know why you feel they are incompatible. My guess is because you were indoctrinated into Creationism?

 

[billthecat]

...valid and truly amazing concept of...dun DUN! SCIENCE! When thinking of all there is to now learn about this universe, it is utterly overwhelming!

As someone who really has very little understanding of science as a whole beyond what is taught in high school, how difficult is it to understand things like 'Origin of Species' or 'Cosmos'?

... works more for the intermediate scientist or would this be a good place to start?

A good place to start is to follow the fundamental part of true Science - the Scientific Method.

The first step is to ask a question. In your case, I think a reasonable question would be "Are Christianity and Science incompatible?" Or "Are Science and the existence of God mutually exclusive?"

But you've already violated the Scientific Method. Rather that starting off asking a question, you've started by deciding what is false and what is true, and now you're out to enforce what you've already decided.

You admitted repeatedly in your post that you are ignorant of Science in general - you find the entire concept utterly overwhelming, you have very little understanding.

Therefore, the place to start is to increase your knowledge of Science in an OBJECTIVE manner. THEN, work on answering your hypothesis.

I am fascinated with both the largest and the smallest parts of the Universe. I am blown away by the shear size and components of the Universe. The vastness and the different components. I've also tracked with great interest the search for the Higgs boson at CERN. They are searching for the Higgs not because they KNOW it exists, but because its existence is predicted by The Standard Model. If they find it for sure, then that is a great substantiation of the The Standard Model. If they would prove that the Higgs does NOT exist, then that brings the entire Standard Model into question, REGARDLESS of how entrenched The Standard Model is in Science. Neither of those disciplines - largest or smallest - include anything that would lead me to doubt the existence of God.

In your quest for "the truth" I recommend reading the book "The Case for Christ".

I also hope you differentiate a belief in GOD versus a "religion" being true or correct.

The main thing that bothers me about atheism so far is the anger, but I suppose that depends on what you feel religion and the religious have done to you, personally.)

Religion and the religious have often done a great disservice to God and to people.


At the very least, I think the appropriate transition for you is to consider yourself an agnostic at this point, rather than an atheist.

 

[Reverend Richard]

I am shedding my Christian ideals and looking to gain knowledge (yay!). My first instinct was to go out and seek things like 'The God Delusion,' 'A History of God,' 'Jesus, Interrupted' etc to help me prove that Jesus, The Bible and God were all fictitious. I then heard a few people say that the best thing to do when trying to make this 'transition' is not to look for writings and sources to debunk your faith, but to start by learning.

I think that's excellent advice. I began by trying the "debunking" method, but I found it made me a cynic, as opposed to a seeker of truth.

That sounds like a vague difference but by that I mean I have now shed the chains of Creationism and discovered that there is this whole valid and truly amazing concept of...dun DUN! SCIENCE! When thinking of all there is to now learn about this universe, it is utterly overwhelming!

I want to read Sagan and Darwin and Hawking all at the same time! And I probably want to read another 20 authors I don't even know about! My new 'learning' period isn't even two weeks old yet so I am afraid of jumping into something that will leave me more confused. Also, Christianity is still a bit of a sensitive subject since I am only newly removed so I may have to work up to such strident things like Hitchins and Dawkins. (The main thing that bothers me about atheism so far is the anger, but I suppose that depends on what you feel religion and the religious have done to you, personally.)

Yep. So many books, so little time.

Some advice: If you can afford one, I recommend buying a Kindle (or some other e-reader). There are dozens of Kindle books on religion and philosopy that you can download for free, then read, compare and contrast the ideas in each book. Sometimes I will read a little from 4 or 5 different books everynight before I go to bed. Or sometimes I will simply read several chapters of a single book. It depends on my mood, or what questions I've been mulling over recently.

One of the books I highly recommend is William James' "The Varieties of Religous Experience". It's one of the free Kindle books I mentioned. (addendum - I think this also available for free online as a downloadable PDF file. Just do a Google search for it_.

As someone who really has very little understanding of science as a whole beyond what is taught in high school, how difficult is it to understand things like 'Origin of Species' or 'Cosmos'?

I consider myself to be an intelligent person (former Christianity aside), but are their works more for the intermediate scientist or would this be a good place to start? I have watched some Sagan clips on YouTube and he seems to break it down in a way that is fairly easy for the every man to grasp.

I realize that asking where one should start in learning everything about the origin of the Universe is in itself a ridiculous question, I am hoping there might be a few of you here who have gone through this and can tell me what you found most interesting and helpful in your journey from believer to atheist.

Thanks in advance.

I ended up as a "believer", but not in the traditional sense of the word. My journey includes the following path:

Southern Baptist > Catholic > Agnostic > Panentheist > Ordained New Thought Minister

I has been quite a ride, but so far it's been really fun! Enjoy your journey!

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

honestly the first thing i would do is educate yourself on how science is actually done. if you were once a creationist, i'm going to assume you've got some funky ideas about what science really is. i'd start by clearing that up, then find a field of study that interests you and check it out. some people really dig on biology, others are hella into space. figure out what you like learning about and learn. but make sure you get the basics first.

 

[Maya3]

I don't see a contradiction between religion and science either.

The biblical view that God sat somewhere and created the world in 7 days, yes that I agree is fiction. But there are many religions and they don't all believe in that concept.

Not to say that it's wrong to be Atheist, you might very well be right.

Maya

 

[Reverend Richard]

I don't see a contradiction between religion and science either.

I totally agree with this.

In fact, as our civilization progresses, I think this will become more and more evident. Indeed, atheists may be horrified by this merging of the two, but my view of who (or what) "God" is has changed drastically over the last 45 years.

Physics and astronomy seem to peel back the layers of my panentheistic view of God.

 

[StarryNightshade]

You don't actually need to not believe in God to in order to follow science. Many theists believe in God while adhering to actual science (not young earth creationism).

That being said, perhaps start with Darwin's On the Origin of Species and work your way from there.

 

[Alceste]

If you're coming from a creationist background, you should start by reading the Greatest Show on Earth. It is Richard Dawkins at his finest - I like him best when he is writing about evolution ad opposed to religion. I honestly feel he wrote that book for people like you. It lays out all the evidence for evolution very carefully, in a format designed to address each of the misconceptions you will have learned as a creationist. For example, fundamentalists are taught that gaps in the fossil record, certain issues with carbon dating and geologic evidence pose insurmountable problems for evolution. He deals with each topic at length, and you will be hard pressed to retain any of these misconceptions after reading his argument.

It's also a really good book. I never had any doubts about evolution myself, but I learned much I didn't previously know.

Bill Bryson's "A Short History of Nearly Everything" is a wonderful, fun way to learn about science and scientists throughout history, as well as get a general overview of their most significant discoveries. I absolutely loved it, and would recommend it to anyone.

For criticisms of christianity, this essay by Bertrand Russell elegantly and succinctly lays out all the issues modern atheist writers are banging on about. In my opinion, most of that work is a waste of time.

Why I Am Not A Christian, by Bertrand Russell

Welcome to the world! Have fun.

 

[Penumbra]

I am shedding my Christian ideals and looking to gain knowledge (yay!). My first instinct was to go out and seek things like 'The God Delusion,' 'A History of God,' 'Jesus, Interrupted' etc to help me prove that Jesus, The Bible and God were all fictitious. I then heard a few people say that the best thing to do when trying to make this 'transition' is not to look for writings and sources to debunk your faith, but to start by learning.

That sounds like a vague difference but by that I mean I have now shed the chains of Creationism and discovered that there is this whole valid and truly amazing concept of...dun DUN! SCIENCE! When thinking of all there is to now learn about this universe, it is utterly overwhelming!

I want to read Sagan and Darwin and Hawking all at the same time! And I probably want to read another 20 authors I don't even know about! My new 'learning' period isn't even two weeks old yet so I am afraid of jumping into something that will leave me more confused. Also, Christianity is still a bit of a sensitive subject since I am only newly removed so I may have to work up to such strident things like Hitchins and Dawkins. (The main thing that bothers me about atheism so far is the anger, but I suppose that depends on what you feel religion and the religious have done to you, personally.)

As someone who really has very little understanding of science as a whole beyond what is taught in high school, how difficult is it to understand things like 'Origin of Species' or 'Cosmos'?

I consider myself to be an intelligent person (former Christianity aside), but are their works more for the intermediate scientist or would this be a good place to start? I have watched some Sagan clips on YouTube and he seems to break it down in a way that is fairly easy for the every man to grasp.

I realize that asking where one should start in learning everything about the origin of the Universe is in itself a ridiculous question, I am hoping there might be a few of you here who have gone through this and can tell me what you found most interesting and helpful in your journey from believer to atheist.

Thanks in advance.

Well congrats on your appreciation for science.

That all seems kind of abrupt and black&white though. Almost like one form of fundamentalism to another.

I'm not sure why one would have to or want to read a lot of books to 'prove' that the Christian gods are fictitious. If you're still interested in religion/philosophy, it might be a good idea to read several religious and philosophical texts from around the world and modern commentaries on them. Many atheists in the west seem to think Religion = Christianity.

Reading the Bhagavad Gita, some Buddhist texts, the primary Upanishads, the Tao Te Ching, the Qur'an, the Bible, some Christian Apocrypha, Greek and Roman philosophers (Plato & Aristotle for a sampling of ancient Greek philosophy, Aurelius and Seneca for Roman stoicism derived from earlier Greek philosophy), some New Age writings, brushing up on European philosophy or American transcendentalism, etc. would help alleviate the dichotomy between Christianity and science I think.

I was way into science back when I was still a theist and way into science when I was no longer a theist. Only certain religious groups make an enemy out of science, not all of them.

Anything by Carl Sagan is good imo. The Demon Haunted World would be a good entry into skepticism.

Speeches, books, or articles by Sam Harris tend to be good in my view.

Can you recommend a more 'modern' book on evolution that might be easier to get through?

I read 'Evolution for Everyone' when I was bored in a library once. Pretty good, imo.

 

[Maya3]

Well congrats on your appreciation for science.

That all seems kind of abrupt and black&white though. Almost like one form of fundamentalism to another.

I'm not sure why one would have to or want to read a lot of books to 'prove' that the Christian gods are fictitious. If you're still interested in religion/philosophy, it might be a good idea to read several religious and philosophical texts from around the world and modern commentaries on them. Many atheists in the west seem to think Religion = Christianity.

Reading the Bhagavad Gita, some Buddhist texts, the primary Upanishads, the Tao Te Ching, the Qur'an, the Bible, some Christian Apocrypha, Greek and Roman philosophers (Plato & Aristotle for a sampling of ancient Greek philosophy, Aurelius and Seneca for Roman stoicism derived from earlier Greek philosophy), some New Age writings, brushing up on European philosophy or American transcendentalism, etc. would help alleviate the dichotomy between Christianity and science I think.

I was way into science back when I was still a theist and way into science when I was no longer a theist. Only certain religious groups make an enemy out of science, not all of them.

Anything by Carl Sagan is good imo. The Demon Haunted World would be a good entry into skepticism.

Speeches, books, or articles by Sam Harris tend to be good in my view.


I read 'Evolution for Everyone' when I was bored in a library once. Pretty good, imo.

Excellent point. Especially your point that a lot of people in the west assumes that religion is Christianity and if you don't believe in it you must be atheist.
As if Christianity is the only option.

Truthseeker,
I agree that it might be good to read up on other religions and see what you think. You might still be atheist at the end which is fine of course, but it is not a black and white issue like Penumbra pointed out.

Maya

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Indeed, atheists may be horrified by this merging of the two...

No. Merging implies both integrate into each other with relatively equal amounts of accommodation. Science has not been changing for gods, gods have been changing to keep up with discovery.