Let's talk about the "Big Bang" (theory)

[YoursTrue]

No, they are not. But they would not hesitate if such evidence comes up.

Evidence?

 

[YoursTrue]

That is a prophecy, and I do not believe in prophecies.Your (unscientific) views, not mine.

Again, weighing the views, and conjectures, I find the substance of the Bible to be very realistic. (shrug.) But you take care.

 

[YoursTrue]

Again, if time *began* at that point, there was nothing there 'before'. Literally nothing because there was no 'before'.

I have to do some research about time. Right now it is clear that time is a way of counting the progression of things happening. But I'll have to look into that more. Since God in my estimation and understanding of what the Bible says, has no beginning, then He is the One in control of time. So I know how old I am based on the years passing, based on the solar system and men counting seasons, months and years. Also my gray hair.

 

[PruePhillip]

Going back to probabilities again -- today I was thinking about the probability of humans burgeoning (evolving by chance, I mean, natural selection) is so far beyond the scope of anyone's thinking in REALITY -- that yes, there is only one credible answer IMO of course. Of course, that's after the mass exploding a long time ago and planets, suns, moons and other things being formed by, um, chance, not natural selection.

Take a petrol engine - suck in fuel and oxygen, ignite it and the force will push against the piston,driving the engine.
Give the conditions and the effect will happen, over and over again.

Take a huge cloud of metal rich gas out in space. Given time gravity will contract it so that the gas will super-compress and ignite, forming a sun. And the remaining gas in orbit will form planets. And if in the right configuration (not too hot, not too cold, not too big, not too small etc) a planet will form life. Over and over again.

 

[PruePhillip]

Well, theists put everything at God's door. We atheists don't agree with that. Again putting all events at God's door is not our way. These events are well covered by the theory of probability.
Probability - Wikipedia

Yes, love probability, one of the more interesting aspects of mathematics. Probability rules the universe.
Doesn't mean there's no God though. When God commanded the sea to bring forth life who was He speaking to? The sea. How did the sea 'obey' God? By the laws of physics and probability.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yeah, that is the new theory coming up. 'Life did not require deep-sea sulfur vents'. I would not discount it. However, it still did not require intervention of a God.

Yes, so what was taught as truth may not be true. That is what started me on some levels questioning things "scientific" because of Haeckel's idea and the idea of ontology recapitulates phylogeny that was taught as true (beyond doubt) in schools some years ago until it was debunked and abandoned. So what is true today may not be taught as true in the future. When I did not believe in God, when I declared there is no God before I became a believer, I accepted anything I was taught about man's origins, and the universe's origins. So when I realized that "ontology recapitulates phylogeny" was debunked by scientists, everything, and I mean everything, including the "Unknown" so-called "Common Ancestor" of homo sapiens, gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos, is now not even in Limbo in my mind, but in Hell. haha that's just a little joke.

 

[YoursTrue]

Take a petrol engine - suck in fuel and oxygen, ignite it and the force will push against the piston,driving the engine.
Give the conditions and the effect will happen, over and over again.

Take a huge cloud of metal rich gas out in space. Given time gravity will contract it so that the gas will super-compress and ignite, forming a sun. And the remaining gas in orbit will form planets. And if in the right configuration (not too hot, not too cold, not too big, not too small etc) a planet will form life. Over and over again.

OK? and so? something was there. something ignited it. It simply did not happen or get there by itself. By "natural" means without an intelligent force causing these things. That is my conclusion.

 

[PruePhillip]

OK? and so? something was there. something ignited it. It simply did not happen or get there by itself. By "natural" means without an intelligent force causing these things. That is my conclusion.

I believe God created the initial conditions for all this to happen. And even though it happens 'naturally' it was God who created the 'naturally' to happe.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Evidence?

Yeah, science goes with evidence only.

Yes, love probability, one of the more interesting aspects of mathematics. Probability rules the universe.
Doesn't mean there's no God though ..

No God without evidence. God does not get a free pass in science.

Yes, so what was taught as truth may not be true.

It is never taught as "The Truth". It is always taught as "the prevailing cosmological model" (Big Bang - Wikipedia).

 

[Aupmanyav]

OK? and so? something was there. something ignited it. It simply did not happen or get there by itself. By "natural" means without an intelligent force causing these things. That is my conclusion.

What caused God to exist? Now, don't shirk the answer with special pleading.
When science does not understand something, it clearly says so, and tries to find the answer. "Why something exists?" is the ultimate question.
And my guess for it is that 'physical energy' has two phases - existence and non-existence, however wild and incomprehensible it may seem.

 

[PruePhillip]

Yeah, science goes with evidence only.No God without evidence. God does not get a free pass in science.

Certainly. It states in the bible that if you 'worship' God in some form where you never prove anything for yourself then your worship is in vain.
This is private proof, not corporate proof. Religion operates in a different realm to nature.

 

[PruePhillip]

What caused God to exist? Now, don't shirk the answer with special pleading.
When science does not understand something, it clearly says so, and tries to find the answer. "Why something exists?" is the ultimate question.
And my guess for it is that 'physical energy' has two phases - existence and non-existence, however wild and incomprehensible it may seem.

Before the universe there was no energy - or matter, or time, or physics or even mathematics.

 

[We Never Know]

Before the universe there was no energy - or matter, or time, or physics or even mathematics.

Not that we can understand.

Even if we don't understand what or if there was a before.
Energy/matter can't be destroyed or created. They just change forms. To me that means they always existed...pre big bang, big bang and post big bang.

Just because what we know in our short time here(milliseconds of the universe age) breaks down, doesn't mean "there was or wasn't this or that, a "pre". It simply means we aren't that advanced and smart enough yet to understand it.

Energy, matter and time either always existed or were somehow created at some point. When I say created I mean came into existence by whatever means.

When people say there was no "pre big bang" I think it's comical because we don't know and by saying there was no "pre" they are assuming they know.
However either..
1. Energy, matter and time didn't exist before the big bang so there was nothing for the big bang to happen from
2. Energy, matter and time did exist before the big bang and thats what spawned the big bang.
3. Energy, matter and time was somehow created at a certain point and the big bang followed.

Edit....

A tree can't exist without a seed.
Water can't exist without hydrogen.
An atom can't exist without a proton.
A proton can't exist without quarks.
Etc etc.

Something had to always exist for anything to exist and for anything to exist, time had to exist

 

[YoursTrue]

What caused God to exist? Now, don't shirk the answer with special pleading.
When science does not understand something, it clearly says so, and tries to find the answer. "Why something exists?" is the ultimate question.
And my guess for it is that 'physical energy' has two phases - existence and non-existence, however wild and incomprehensible it may seem.

There is no special pleading. God has no beginning. It's clear although beyond human comprehension. Because God is God.
Psalm 90:2 describes it this way: "Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, From everlasting to everlasting, you are God."
Creation itself testifies to God's existence. In order to know Him, you have to want to know Him. As I said, before I knew God, or asked to know Him, I was an atheist. It takes time to get to know someone.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yeah, science goes with evidence only.No God without evidence. God does not get a free pass in science.
It is never taught as "The Truth". It is always taught as "the prevailing cosmological model" (Big Bang - Wikipedia).

For instance, on tests in many parts of the United States, there was no question as to whether it was the prevailing concept. You either got the answer right or wrong, based on the current idea. No middle ground, no thought or teaching of maybe...such as: ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. You recited the concept as to the current teaching with no possibility of it being wrong. I'm not sure how it's done in other countries.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yeah, science goes with evidence only.No God without evidence. God does not get a free pass in science.
It is never taught as "The Truth". It is always taught as "the prevailing cosmological model" (Big Bang - Wikipedia).

It is not taught as something that might not be true. Most students will believe the "prevailing" model as if that's how it really happened. Yet again -- my question really is not about the "density," or mass, but about the peach idea. Like what was beyond the peach? Or shall I say what's beyond the exploded peach? OK, I take it back. Why decide it was as small as a peach? OK, let me guess. Because the universe is expanding? Back to the initial question. What's beyond the rims of the peach? Some things are unanswerable and may always be.

"Before the mountains were born
Or you brought forth the earth and the productive land,
From everlasting to everlasting, you are God." (Psalm 80:2)

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe God created the initial conditions for all this to happen. And even though it happens 'naturally' it was God who created the 'naturally' to happe.

I could go further into this concept, but it's kind of like another thread, so I'll forbear for the moment. Have a good one!

 

[Aupmanyav]

This is private proof, not corporate proof. Religion operates in a different realm to nature.

My religion (Hinduism. So what if I am an atheist Hindu?) has the same requirements for proof as science has. It does not operate on a different realm of nature.

Before the universe there was no energy - or matter, or time, or physics or even mathematics.

Yeah, the 'physical energy' was perhaps in its non-existent phase.

Creation itself testifies to God's existence. In order to know Him, you have to want to know Him. As I said, before I knew God, or asked to know Him, I was an atheist. It takes time to get to know someone.

For me, there is no creation, no birth, no death, all illusions - 'maya'.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Most students will believe the "prevailing" model as if that's how it really happened.
.. but about the peach idea. Like what was beyond the peach? Or shall I say what's beyond the exploded peach? OK, I take it back. Why decide it was as small as a peach? OK, let me guess. Because the universe is expanding? Back to the initial question. What's beyond the rims of the peach? Some things are unanswerable and may always be.

Yeah, at junior level, we think of Big Bang as certified history and atoms as balls, but as we go to senior levels, we begin to understand it more clearly.
As for the peach, I have already mentioned that science does not know it. We know only from the 'inflation', though we have signals from before that (CMBR). Research is going on.
It is a curved space. There is nothing beyond it. Have you heard of 'Manifolds'?
Keep your poems (Psalms) with you, I have never been interested in any poetry other than that in Urdu (Shayri, Ghazal).

"Hum ko maloom hai jannat ki hakiqat, lekin
dil ko behlane ko, Ghalib, ye khayal accha hai."
(I know the reality of hevean, but to pamper the heart, O Ghalib, this is a good idea.)
Mirza Asadullah Baig Khan "Ghalib" (1797-1869) Ghalib - Wikipedia

Manifold - Wikipedia

 

[Aupmanyav]

You recited the concept as to the current teaching with no possibility of it being wrong. I'm not sure how it's done in other countries.

No. I said the 'prevailing cosmological model', that means differing new data can change the model or even cause it to be rejected totally.