LDS ONLY - Views on Evolution

[Comprehend]

For those LDS members who believe that man came from a lower order of species, how do you address this scripture?

2 Ne 2:22
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

1. Do you believe that there was death of any kind before Adam and Eve ate the fruit? (if so please explain).

2. Who/what do you believe were the parents of Adam's physical body? (please explain)

3. Do you believe that man developed from a lower ordered specie?

4. Do you believe that man and apes share a common ancestor at some point?

5. If yes to 3 or 4, how do you believe Adam ended up with a perfect and immortal body?


obviously I don't think we evolved and I was interested that so many here seem to believe we do, so I am interested to hear what you all think about the questions and quotes.



Additional information:

James E. Talmage
Rulon T.Burton, We Believe
The Immediate Result of the Fall was the substitution of mortality, with all its attendant frailties, for the vigor of the primeval deathless state. AF:61

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 1-4 vols., edited by Daniel H. Ludlow (New York: Macmillan, 1992),, p.1088-1089

THE CREATION. One of the purposes for creating this earth was for God's spirit children to obtain physical bodies and learn to walk by faith. Earth life is the second estate. The scriptures teach that by the power of his Only Begotten Son, the Father has created "worlds without number" (Moses 1:33; cf. John 1:3; Heb. 1:2), but the Lord has revealed to us detailed information only about this world (Moses 1:40).

Ecclesiastes states that "whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever" (Eccl. 3:14). God does not work for temporal ends (D&C 29:34-35). The scriptures specify that when God created the earth, it was in a paradisiacal and deathless state. If Adam and Eve had not transgressed and fallen, "all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained for ever, and had no end" (2 Ne. 2:22; cf. Moses 3:9; DS, pp. 75-77).



Ezra Taft Benson, Come unto Christ, p.117
Even before the fall of Adam, which ushered death into this world, our Heavenly Father had prepared a place for the spirits who would eventually depart this mortal life. At the time of Jesus' death, the spirit world was occupied by hosts of our Father's children who had died-from Adam's posterity to the death of Jesus-both the righteous and the wicked.

 

[Sola'lor]

I used to think animals evolved. I never thought Adam evolved. But now I realize evolution from one species to another is impossible.

 

[madhatter85]

I'd have to agree comprehend,

 

[nutshell]

For those LDS members who believe that man came from a lower order of species, how do you address this scripture?

2 Ne 2:22
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

I do believe in evolution. I'll take a crack at your questions.

1. Do you believe that there was death of any kind before Adam and Eve ate the fruit? (if so please explain).

Since I believe in evolution, then YES, I do believe some sort of death must have existed on the earth prior to Adam and Eve eating the fruit.

2. Who/what do you believe were the parents of Adam's physical body? (please explain)

Adam and Eve's physical bodies were created by God.

3. Do you believe that man developed from a lower ordered specie?

Yes. I believe in evolution.

4. Do you believe that man and apes share a common ancestor at some point?

I haven't looked at an anthropology chart for some time, but, YES, I believe there is likely a common ancestor somewhere in the distant past.

5. If yes to 3 or 4, how do you believe Adam ended up with a perfect and immortal body?

I believe when it came time for "modern" humans to inhabit the earth, God created the Garden of Eden and placed this next step there. Once they partook of the fruit, they were escorted out of the Garden and into the loan and dreary world, which had been existing simultaneously as the Garden.

 

[Buttons*]

can I ask something? Didn't you have a little private room made especially for you to have LDS specific discussion? No?

Now, I know this has NOTHING to do with your thread, I was just a tad curious! Seriously, I was under the impression taht if ANY LDS threads were made outside the private forum then they would be trashed with people who just talk badly about the Church. It hasn't happened until my post in this thread.

And I'm STILL not trashing your beliefs. Go figure.

Mods, delete my thread and if you choose - gimme a warning. I know I'm a pain in everyone's behind

 

[Katzpur]

can I ask something? Didn't you have a little private room made especially for you to have LDS specific discussion? No?

Now, I know this has NOTHING to do with your thread, I was just a tad curious! Seriously, I was under the impression taht if ANY LDS threads were made outside the private forum then they would be trashed with people who just talk badly about the Church. It hasn't happened until my post in this thread.

And I'm STILL not trashing your beliefs. Go figure.

Mods, delete my thread and if you choose - gimme a warning. I know I'm a pain in everyone's behind

*** MOD POST ***​

The Same-Faith Debates forum is for debates between believers of the same religion. In this case, it's an LDS same-faith debate, so it's open only to Latter-day Saints. It could have been set up as a Christian same-faith debate, which would have made it open to all Christians. It could have been set up as an Abrahamic same-faith debate, which would have made it open to Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Baha'is.

Anyone is free to read threads in the Same-faith Debates forum; people outside of the faith being discussed just may not post on those threads. The Latter-day Saints do have a private forum which they alone can view.

Does that make sense? And no, you are not a pain in anybody's behind.

 

[jonny]

After what happened last time I participate in an LDS thread on this topic, I'm staying out of this debate. I don't care one way or another. I don't think evolution is incompatible with the gospel.

 

[Katzpur]

After what happened last time I participate in an LDS thread on this topic, I'm staying out of this debate. I don't care one way or another. I don't think evolution is incompatible with the gospel.

You and me both. There is no way I can adequately explain my beliefs on this subject without causing a major same-faith riot. I, too, believe that evolution is entirely compatible with the gospel.

 

[Bishka]

You and me both. There is no way I can adequately explain my beliefs on this subject without causing a major same-faith riot. I, too, believe that evolution is entirely compatible with the gospel.

I'll third that.

 

[Aqualung]

But how can evolution exist if, prior to the fall, "all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created". Evolution means "change", and how can things have changed (evolved) if they couldn't change? How can evolution and not evolution coexist? Or did all evolution happen after the fall?

 

[madhatter85]

I'll third that.

I will 4th that

 

[Aqualung]

This thread has some unexpected responses.

 

[Sola'lor]

I do believe that adaptation is possible but evolution is immpossible. I have difficulty explaining why this is but I will do my best. Essentiallyevolution is the changing of one species to another because certain genetic mutations are better able to survive in different environments. Let's take a fish evolving to live on land as an example. Say some fish had a slight genetic mutation that allowed its fins to propel itself on land. This mutation allowed this fish to survive on land better then other fish. Thus this genetic mutation would prosper as the fish reproduced. But once this mutation was sufficient to allow the fish to survive sufficiently there would no longer be a environmental reason for this fish to change further. The fish wouldn't naturally try to live further and further on land. The fish would only adapt enough to cancel out the environmental changes. Once it has met the needs to survive the won't be any further survival need for it to change.

I hope that makes sence.

A better example would be those moths that changed color becuase of the polution. The poultion blackened the tree trunks so the white colored moths were easy prey for the birds. But those moths that had genetic mutations which gave them a darker color were able to survive and reproduce. AS the trees got darker the moths that were darker tended to survive. But once better polution control was instituted the trees returned to their lighter color and now the white and black moths live together. The moths adapted to survive in their environment but after the environmental threat was over, they had no further reason to adapt. They didn't continue to evolve until they mutated into butterflies or a new species or developed better eyes.

Hopefully you get what I'm trying to say. That is why I say evolution is impossible. Adaptation is possible but evolution is not.

 

[jonny]

Before Adam by Hugh Nibley

 

[nutshell]

But how can evolution exist if, prior to the fall, "all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created". Evolution means "change", and how can things have changed (evolved) if they couldn't change? How can evolution and not evolution coexist? Or did all evolution happen after the fall?

Aqualung, were you directing that to me? If so, here's my answer.

I don't know.

I have two theories:

1. The Garden of Eden was a real pace that was separated from the rest of the world - in a bubble. In the bubble were things as described in Genesis and Moses. Outside the bubble things were likely similar to what modern science describes them as.

2. The Adam and Eve / Garden of Eden story is a myth, a story told to teach Truth. Do I believe Adam and Eve were real people? Yes - especially concerning who Adam is (and I suspect Eve had/has a similar great responsibility). However, I accept the possibility that the Genesis/Moses stories and even the events portrayed in the Temple are a fictional stories meant to teach us about our nature, the Plan of Salvation, and our potential. For those who have been to the temple, think about it - have we ever been told that we are seeing actual events?

I expect this post will create a firestorm with the more conservative LDS members here. I hope we can keep things civil (this hope is more for myself than any of you).

 

[Aqualung]

Aqualung, were you directing that to me?

Yes and no. It was directed at everyone.

1. The Garden of Eden was a real pace that was separated from the rest of the world - in a bubble. In the bubble were things as described in Genesis and Moses. Outside the bubble things were likely similar to what modern science describes them as.

2. The Adam and Eve / Garden of Eden story is a myth, a story told to teach Truth. Do I believe Adam and Eve were real people? Yes - especially concerning who Adam is (and I suspect Eve had/has a similar great responsibility). However, I accept the possibility that the Genesis/Moses stories and even the events portrayed in the Temple are a fictional stories meant to teach us about our nature, the Plan of Salvation, and our potential. For those who have been to the temple, think about it - have we ever been told that we are seeing actual events?

I expect this post will create a firestorm with the more conservative LDS members here. I hope we can keep things civil (this hope is more for myself than any of you).

OK, I think I understand now. But for question two - what purpose was there in latter-day prophets in affirming that myth in the face of evolutionary theory (like in comprehend's post)?


As for the OP, at this point in time I'm really quite comfortable siding with the one who makes the best case in this thread (that is to say, I haven't ever thought it about it much and this is the first time that I've been able to see both sides at once).

 

[nutshell]

OK, I think I understand now. But for question two - what purpose was there in latter-day prophets in affirming that myth in the face of evolutionary theory (like in comprehend's post)?

Because it's scripture. It still has the same value it had when the story was first told - this is especially true after going through the temple. I think people get caught up on the minutia (how long is a day? was it a serpent talking or is that figurative?). We have to think big picture at the Garden of Eden and see the overall Plan for us. Whether the events really happened or not does not affect God's message to us.

 

[Sola'lor]

1. The Garden of Eden was a real pace that was separated from the rest of the world - in a bubble. In the bubble were things as described in Genesis and Moses. Outside the bubble things were likely similar to what modern science describes them as.

Very intereting theory. I have also considered this. After all we don't know how long they were in the Garden of Eden. If could be possible that they were there while dinosaurs existed out side. This also leads into a ton of other topics including when did the continents break up? And of course there are those member who don't believe that dinosaurs are native to our planet. But anyway back to the topic.

2. The Adam and Eve / Garden of Eden story is a myth, a story told to teach Truth. Do I believe Adam and Eve were real people? Yes - especially concerning who Adam is (and I suspect Eve had/has a similar great responsibility). However, I accept the possibility that the Genesis/Moses stories and even the events portrayed in the Temple are a fictional stories meant to teach us about our nature, the Plan of Salvation, and our potential. For those who have been to the temple, think about it - have we ever been told that we are seeing actual events?

I believe Adam and Eve were real people and that the events described more so in the book of Moses than Genisis where actual events although I think some parts are symbolic. The things portrayed in the temple are even more symbolic.

 

[jonny]

OK, I think I understand now. But for question two - what purpose was there in latter-day prophets in affirming that myth in the face of evolutionary theory (like in comprehend's post)?

Good question. One of my favorite quotes from the book on David O. McKay I've been reading was what he said after Joseph Fielding Smith published the book "The Origin of Man" or whatever it was called. He said something to the effect of "We've known for a long time what he has believed in regards to this subject. The unfortunate thing is that it is now in print."

 

[Comprehend]

I do believe in evolution. I'll take a crack at your questions.



Since I believe in evolution, then YES, I do believe some sort of death must have existed on the earth prior to Adam and Eve eating the fruit.



Adam and Eve's physical bodies were created by God.



Yes. I believe in evolution.



I haven't looked at an anthropology chart for some time, but, YES, I believe there is likely a common ancestor somewhere in the distant past.



I believe when it came time for "modern" humans to inhabit the earth, God created the Garden of Eden and placed this next step there. Once they partook of the fruit, they were escorted out of the Garden and into the loan and dreary world, which had been existing simultaneously as the Garden.

that wasn't a terribly informative response but I enjoyed the sarcasm.