LDS: Joseph Smith's Polyandry

[zomg]

I'm curious how members of the LDS faith justify and/or explain Joseph Smith's plural marriages to women who were currently married to their first husbands. These are the names of said women.

Lucinda Morgan Harris
Zina Huntington Jacobs
Presendia Huntington Buell
Sylvia Sessions Lyon
Mary Rollins Lightner
Patty Bartlett Sessions
Marinda Johnson Hyde
Elizabeth Davis Durfee
Sarah Kingsley Cleveland
Ruth Vose Sayers
Elvira Cowles Holmes

Thank you.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm curious how members of the LDS faith justify and/or explain Joseph Smith's plural marriages to women who were currently married to their first husbands. These are the names of said women.

Lucinda Morgan Harris
Zina Huntington Jacobs
Presendia Huntington Buell
Sylvia Sessions Lyon
Mary Rollins Lightner
Patty Bartlett Sessions
Marinda Johnson Hyde
Elizabeth Davis Durfee
Sarah Kingsley Cleveland
Ruth Vose Sayers
Elvira Cowles Holmes

Thank you.

Well, we can say, almost with a surety, that he was not intimate with many of the women he was married to. He fathered quite a number of children with Emma and yet not a single solitary one with any other woman. (A few individuals claimed to have been fathered by Joseph Smith, but DNA evidence has refuted their claims.) I'm guessing that his marriages to these particular women were for eternity as opposed to for this life. It's possible that their husbands were unworthy to enter into the covenant of eternal marriage. I'm merely speculating, but that's my guess.

 

[Elder_Bevan]

well the reason why is that god commanded the practice of polygamy, is was part of the restoration of all things. so just as abraham and jacob and many other prophets practiced polygamy in the bible, so too did the early saints, to help the lords kingdom to grow

http://www.elderbevan.blogspot.com

 

[Watchmen]

well the reason why is that god commanded the practice of polygamy, is was part of the restoration of all things. so just as abraham and jacob and many other prophets practiced polygamy in the bible, so too did the early saints, to help the lords kingdom to grow

http://www.elderbevan.blogspot.com

Read the actual question and try again.

 

[spanjo]

The dilemma the church faces in claiming divine revelation is that there is often no explanation. The church does not try to justify or explain this seemingly adulterous practice. I know this because I am a 31 year old mormon and did not know about this until a couple of years ago (most mormons have no ideas about this). Let me tell you, it was a shock and genuine struggle for me.
It seems like such a cop out to simply say that the wisdom of God will not bend to the reasoning of any man, but it is true. The only evidence that helps me to accept this as divine council, is the testimony of the women themselves (not to mention their own husbands). All of them were horrified at the prospects and resisted at first. None of them were forced, but were all given a choice. They were all counseled to pray for divine confirmation; they all received it! Most of them entered the covenant with the blessing of their husbands, whom they continued to live with.
Rationally, it makes no sense. I don't understand it, however, their testimonies melted my doubt when I read them, the spirit burned in my heart. No women would have entered into such an arrangement without the testimonies that they received directly from God.
I hope this helps. Good question!

 

[Gaura Priya]

My own problem is what the Book of Mormon says about polygamous marriages:

"Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord... Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts."

-- Jacob 2:24, 27-28


And then Doctrine and Covenants says this:

"David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me."

-- Doctrine and Covenants 132:38


The Book of Commandments says clearly:

"Thou knowest my laws, they are given in my scriptures, he that sinneth and repenteth not, shall be cast out."

-- Book of Commandments 44:25


I have a problem accepting the Doctrine and Covenants as Scripture, and anything else that Joseph Smith added to the revelation of the Book of Mormon. Because he was only given the task of revealing the Book of Mormon, and after that his gift of prophecy would cease.


"And I will give unto him a commandment that he shall do none other work, save the work which I shall command him."

-- 2 Nephi 3:8a


"And you have a gift to translate the plates; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift for I will grant unto you no other gift."

-- Book of Commandments 4:2

 

[spanjo]

Right, but if you continue reading in Jacob, verse 30, it reads:

"For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."

When it says "otherwise they shall hearken unto these things" it is referring to the commandment that you just referred to regarding having one wife. Notice the use of the word "otherwise", this signifies that there are conditions in which the Lord will command to have more than one wife. The condition being "to raise up seed" unto Him (during the time of the restoration). So, according to the Book of Mormon, the rule of thumb is to have only one wife, unless otherwise commanded by God.

Regarding Joseph being only called to translate the book of mormon, you quote:

"And I will give unto him a commandment that he shall do none other work, save the work which I shall command him."

This is true, but what is the work that the Lord commands of Him?
Continue reading in 2 Nephi 3:11:
He will be a "seer" like unto Moses, "not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word"

Verse 24:
"And there shall be one mighty among them, who shall do much good, both in word and in deed, being an instrument in the hand for God, with exceeding faith, to work mighty wonders, and do that which is great in the sight of God, unto the bringing to pass much restoration unto the house of Israel"

From this we understand that he is much more than just a translator. It mentions that he will be a "seer". What constitutes a seer? Read in Mosiah 8:16, Amon says "a seer is a revelator and a prophet also; and a gift which is greater can no man have, except he should possess the power of God." Verse 17: "a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed."

So, Joseph will be a prophet, seer, and "revelator", not simply a translator. Revelators obviously receive revelations. The D&C is the book that proves it.

I don't have reference to the Book of Commandments, that verse is not contained in the modern day D&C, and I would have to read it in full context before I could comment on it. But, for the sake of argument, you are referencing the Book of Commandments as if it is true, yet you claim it is not, which is it? The very fact that he received that revelation shows that he has other gifts besides translating. He is receiving direct revelation, is that not another gift? There must be more behind that verse.

 

[Gaura Priya]

The Book of Jacob is very clear that the Lord finds abomination in having more than one wife.

Doctrine and Covenants says one thing, and the Book of Mormon says another.

I believe in what the Book of Commandments say. Joseph Smith changed the meanings when he 'revised' the Book of Commandments into the 'Doctrine and Covenants' that many hold today as sacred.

This link, Doctrine and Covenants 5 contains the changes from the Book of Commandments into the 'Doctrine and Covenants;' look down into verse four, and you will see the verse.

"...and he hath a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift until my purpose is fulfilled for I will grant unto him no other gift."

The Book of Mormon and the Bible are the two Scriptures of the Restoration, and are the everlasting Gospel of Christ, and the Book of Commandments is lesser in authority, but nevertheless are the commandments given to Joseph Smith the Prophet. If anything is contrary to both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, it is to be rejected.

"God has given to this generation the Book of Mormon, and how plain and simple is the doctrine of Christ set forth therein. Now brethren, remember – remember the words of Him who reigns in heaven and on earth; which will ye hear, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ in that which is written, or the words of man? Choose for yourselves whom you will hear. I am not asking you to hear me; I refer you to the words of eternal truth, as they are contained in the two sacred books. I will always pray for you, that you may some day see that you are in error in believing and teaching the doctrines which men have added to the doctrine of Christ."

-- David Whitmer

I don't have reference to the Book of Commandments, that verse is not contained in the modern day D&C, and I would have to read it in full context before I could comment on it. But, for the sake of argument, you are referencing the Book of Commandments as if it is true, yet you claim it is not, which is it? The very fact that he received that revelation shows that he has other gifts besides translating. He is receiving direct revelation, is that not another gift? There must be more behind that verse.

 

[spanjo]

Brother, you just disregarded my entire argument without an explanation.
How do you explain verse 30 in Jacob 2?
How do you explain that the BOM clearly prophesied that Joseph Smith will be a prophet, seer, and revelator, not simply a translator?

 

[Gaura Priya]

Brother, you just disregarded my entire argument without an explanation.
How do you explain verse 30 in Jacob 2?
How do you explain that the BOM clearly prophesied that Joseph Smith will be a prophet, seer, and revelator, not simply a translator?

Yes, Joseph Smith was a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, but the verse in the Book of Commandments was also clear. He was given the power to reveal the Book of Mormon, and then after that, his job was to preach this true and restored Gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the Earth.

 

[spanjo]

"And you have a gift to translate the plates; and I have commanded that you should pretend to no other gift for I will grant unto you no other gift."

Just curious, how then do you believe in the Book of Commandments at all? Was not a large portion of it received before the Book of Mormon was finished? In fact, the very verse that you quote above was received before the BOM was finished. Does that not make a contradiction? Will God say one thing and do another?

D&C Section 21:1-5; Or, Book of Commandments Section 22.
"Behold, there shall be a record kept among you...being inspired of the holy Ghost to lay the foundation thereof, and to build it up unto the most holy faith...Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them...for his word ye shall receive as if from mine own mouth.

2 Nephi 29:8
"Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word?...I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Why is the Book of Commandments "lesser in authority"? It came from God did it not? Is God's word today somehow of lesser authority than in days past?

P.S. You never explained Jacob 2:30?

 

[Gaura Priya]

My point is that as Latter Day Saints, we should focus on what unites us rather than what divides us, and that is the two Witnesses, which are the Bible and the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon contains all the plain and precious parts of the true and restored Gospel, and it is the most correct book on Earth.

How do you explain the discrepancy between modern-day revelation concerning polygamy today in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and during Joseph Smith's time in his ministry, as well as what the Book of Mormon says?

Joseph Smith was given the ministry to reveal the Book of Mormon, and to teach its eternal truths to every people, kindred, tongue and nation. After all, God told Joseph Smith, that *all* the Churches are wrong. Was it not that Emma Smith did not follow Brigham Young, and helped with the establishment of the Reorganized Latter-day Saints Church, now spiritually represented as the Community of Christ?

The Book of Commandments are revelations given to Joseph Smith, but every revelation must always be backed up by the Scriptures, the Book of Mormon first, and then the Bible. Contrarily, The Book of Mormon is Scripture; it is free from the constraints of time, place and circumstance.

Just curious, how then do you believe in the Book of Commandments at all? Was not a large portion of it received before the Book of Mormon was finished? In fact, the very verse that you quote above was received before the BOM was finished. Does that not make a contradiction? Will God say one thing and do another?

Why is the Book of Commandments "lesser in authority"? It came from God did it not? Is God's word today somehow of lesser authority than in days past?

P.S. You never explained Jacob 2:30?

Jacob 2:31-34 reveals further light about having more than one wife:

"For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done."

 

[spanjo]

but every revelation must always be backed up by the Scriptures, the Book of Mormon first, and then the Bible.

Will God reveal nothing outside of what is contained in the Book of Mormon and Bible?

How do you explain the discrepancy between modern-day revelation concerning polygamy today in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and during Joseph Smith's time in his ministry, as well as what the Book of Mormon says?

Um, you kind of skipped over verse 30 in Jacob 2 again. It really is there, I promise. With that verse, there is no discrepancy. Polygamy has been commanded in the past and perhaps will be commanded at a later time.

 

[zomg]

Right, but if you continue reading in Jacob, verse 30, it reads:

"For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."

When it says "otherwise they shall hearken unto these things" it is referring to the commandment that you just referred to regarding having one wife. Notice the use of the word "otherwise", this signifies that there are conditions in which the Lord will command to have more than one wife. The condition being "to raise up seed" unto Him (during the time of the restoration). So, according to the Book of Mormon, the rule of thumb is to have only one wife, unless otherwise commanded by God.

Thanks for bringing this up.

The verse clearly states God would be cool with polygamy to raise up SEED. If this were the case, why didn't JS impregnant most of his wives? He didn't raise any seed. He was just being a swinger and enjoying an open marriage.

Also, in the Book of Commandments it clearly said polygamy was evil. Of course, that would change when the D and C came out...

Again, if JS was a prophet why would he feel the need to marry other men's wives?

 

[spanjo]

Thanks for bringing this up.

The verse clearly states God would be cool with polygamy to raise up SEED. If this were the case, why didn't JS impregnant most of his wives? He didn't raise any seed. He was just being a swinger and enjoying an open marriage.

Also, in the Book of Commandments it clearly said polygamy was evil. Of course, that would change when the D and C came out...

Again, if JS was a prophet why would he feel the need to marry other men's wives?

If you recall, Joseph was not the only one who practiced polygamy. There were many others raising up seed. Do you have any idea how big Brigham Young's family was, along with many other polygamists? Joseph was commanded, as the prophet, to instigate the practice among the believers, and yes, many, many seed were raised through the practice.
In reply to your comment about him just being a "swinger": How many swingers do you know, go as far as to risk their reputation by entering into the sacred covenant of marriage with the "other" women, have another member of the church perform the ceremony, and then go as far as to command others to start swingin' with him? If he was just looking for a good time, don't you think he would have gone about it a bit differently...just a bit!? He performed it in a sacred ceremony, and commanded others to do the same. He obviously believed that he was fulfilling the will of the Lord. Any claim that he just wanted some action, I think is clearly mis-guided as evidenced by his actions.

You ask, "if JS was a prophet, why would he feel the need to marry other men's wives?" The only person that could answer that is JS. He clearly believed that the Lord had commanded it.

Yes, along with The Book of Mormon, The Book of Commandments clearly said that polygamy was evil too...and it is, when practiced outside of the Lord's guidance (as stated in verse 30). Consider the commandment, "thou shalt not kill." Is killing evil? The same principle applies: Killing is evil...when practiced outside of the Lord's guidance. I have a hard time thinking of a scriptural prophet that has not killed somebody. Was Nephi a fallen prophet after he straight-up broke the commandment "thou shalt not kill", and murdered Laban outside of a time of war?
My point is that the Lord clearly makes exceptions to the rules to accomplish his own purposes.

I would like to hear your explenation and interpretation of Jacob 2:30? Read and analyze it with an honest eye and an open heart and tell me, what did the Lord really mean in that verse when you brake every word down? What was he referring to when he said "otherwise they shall hearken unto these things"? What things? If he said "therefore they shall hearken unto these things", you would be quick to point out that he was speaking of having only one wife, but because he used the word "otherwise", suddenly "these things" become mysterious to you, because you have an eye of doubt. It is clear to me that he was speaking of having one wife, and that there will be a time when he will command "otherwise".

 

[zomg]

If you recall, Joseph was not the only one who practiced polygamy. There were many others raising up seed. Do you have any idea how big Brigham Young's family was, along with many other polygamists? Joseph was commanded, as the prophet, to instigate the practice among the believers, and yes, many, many seed were raised through the practice.

Again, Joseph didn't follow the command to "raise up seed", thus negating the requirement found in Jacob. And if polygamy is such a great thing to do to "raise up seed" then why didn't God give Adam more than just Eve? Why didn't Nephi become a polygamist? Hell, even the apostles should have been polygamists! The Great Apostasy would have never happened, methinks

In reply to your comment about him just being a "swinger": How many swingers do you know, go as far as to risk their reputation by entering into the sacred covenant of marriage with the "other" women, have another member of the church perform the ceremony, and then go as far as to command others to start swingin' with him?

Um, ever heard of a guy named Bill Clinton? He was president of the freaking United States when he received a special gift from Monica. Bishops, Stake Presidents, even Apostles have been caught in extra marital affairs. Joseph WAS caught with a 17 year old girl in 1831. After that he claimed an angel with a flaming sword made him do it. Speaking of that girl, which "member of the church" preformed the "sealing" of him to little Fanny Alger?

Besides, JS wasn't afraid of stirring things up. Ever read the King Follett Discourse? He came right out and stated that all of Christianity were wrong about God.

If he was just looking for a good time, don't you think he would have gone about it a bit differently...just a bit!? He performed it in a sacred ceremony, and commanded others to do the same. He obviously believed that he was fulfilling the will of the Lord. Any claim that he just wanted some action, I think is clearly mis-guided as evidenced by his actions.

You obviously haven't read In Sacred Loneliness. What better way for him to have an open marriage by claiming "God made me do it!" ? It's the ultimate cop-out.

Joseph wanted other men's wives. Some resisted. Mary Lightner is quoted to say "
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times][SIZE=+1]Early in 1842, Joseph approached Mary about becoming his wife. According to Mary, Joseph said, “The angel came to me three times between the year of ’34 and ’42 and said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me.” Furthermore, Joseph told her, “I was his before I came here and he said all the Devils in hell should never get me from him...” and “I know that I shall be saved in the Kingdom of God. I have the oath of God upon it and God cannot lie. All that he gives me I shall take with me for I have that authority and that power conferred upon me.”[/SIZE][/FONT]

Again, the angel card. And then claiming he had her from the beginning of time, even though she was married to another man. That's just one example. Further study of his involvements with his other wives only adds to the evidence JS was an overly sexual man.

You ask, "if JS was a prophet, why would he feel the need to marry other men's wives?" The only person that could answer that is JS. He clearly believed that the Lord had commanded it.

Just like Warren Jeffs claims God told him to marry little girls. Oh wait, that guy is crazy and delusional, amirite?

Yes, along with The Book of Mormon, The Book of Commandments clearly said that polygamy was evil too

Joseph was heavily involved in polygamy when Section 101 of the Book of Commandments was printed. So either he lied or couldn't follow his own scripture!

...and it is, when practiced outside of the Lord's guidance (as stated in verse 30). Consider the commandment, "thou shalt not kill." Is killing evil? The same principle applies: Killing is evil...when practiced outside of the Lord's guidance. I have a hard time thinking of a scriptural prophet that has not killed somebody. Was Nephi a fallen prophet after he straight-up broke the commandment "thou shalt not kill", and murdered Laban outside of a time of war?

Under the Banner of Heaven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh wait, those guys are just delusional crazies!

My point is that the Lord clearly makes exceptions to the rules to accomplish his own purposes.

What a dangerous belief. So if I feel like God wants me to kill my wife? kill my enemy? rape someone? my bases will be covered? If God changes his mind so much (which goes against the BOM teachings) then how do we know our "temptations" aren't from God giving us the okay to break is commandments?

I would like to hear your explenation and interpretation of Jacob 2:30? Read and analyze it with an honest eye and an open heart and tell me, what did the Lord really mean in that verse when you brake every word down? What was he referring to when he said "otherwise they shall hearken unto these things"? What things? If he said "therefore they shall hearken unto these things", you would be quick to point out that he was speaking of having only one wife, but because he used the word "otherwise", suddenly "these things" become mysterious to you, because you have an eye of doubt. It is clear to me that he was speaking of having one wife, and that there will be a time when he will command "otherwise".

Oh, I believe your interpretation. I just don't believe the BOM to be scripture. JS put that in there for future use and use it he did.

I have some questions - What if Thomas Monson called you up on the phone and said, "hey, God wants me to take your wife. You down with that?" How would you respond. If you don't have a wife, just pretend.

What if your bishop told you to go kill someone who was fighting against the church? Would you do it?

 

[spanjo]

Fire of the covenant,
I assumed that you were one of those branch of Mormons that believe that the BoM is true but that JS was a fallen prophet. Your profile pick and name are a little deceiving.
In order to appeal to your logic, I need to know what you believe. Just the basics.
What does it mean to be "between LDS and Agnostic"? Those are complete oxymorons, so I have no clue what you believe, who you believe, or why you believe anything.
Do you believe in a Supreme Being? Do you believe in the Messiah? Do you believe in any scripture? Do you believe in prayer? Do you believe in any prophets? Were you ever LDS?
I am going to waste a lot of time making empty arguments if I don't know how you reason.
You make a lot of difficult and valid arguments, but give me something to play with here.

 

[Katzpur]

The verse clearly states God would be cool with polygamy to raise up SEED. If this were the case, why didn't JS impregnant most of his wives? He didn't raise any seed. He was just being a swinger and enjoying an open marriage.

Swingers generally sleep around a lot, and men who slept around a lot in the 19th century were likely to impregnate a lot of women. Joseph had children only by Emma which strongly suggests he was not the swinger you believe him to have been.

Again, if JS was a prophet why would he feel the need to marry other men's wives?

Clearly, if he wasn't sleeping with them, it was so that they would be sealed to him in the next life. According to Section 132 of the D&C, that is an important part of a celestial marriage. Raising up seed need not happen on earth. A marriage is temporal, but a sealing is eternal.

By the way, is "New Age Mormon" the step immediately preceding "Ex-Mormon"? I remember when you were one of the strongest defenders of the faith. Why not just make the break, find your own path and stop this nonsense of straddling the fence?

 

[Katzpur]

Because this is FireoftheCovenants' process and path, not yours. If this is what he needs to do, then that is what he should do. Alienating people who are questioning the LDS faith is not a way to "bring them back."

Okay, I guess if FireoftheCovenant's path requires him to call Joseph Smith a "swinger," I should just sit back and keep my mouth shut. There is no place for name-calling on the Same Faith Debate forum. Come to think of it, if you are no longer a practicing Latter-day Saint, you shouldn't even be posting on this particular thread either. FireoftheCovenant may have had issues with the Church for years, but until relatively recently, he has been -- at least online -- a defender of the Church. It's not my goal to bring anybody back or keep anybody from leaving. If you knew me better, you'd know that I actually encourage people to follow their hearts. I just think there's a better way to do it than FireoftheCovenant's doing it. And you really should read the forum rules before continuing to post. RF is different from most forums in terms of where debate is allowed and who is allowed to participate.

 

[Katzpur]

Way to encourage discussion! If you really want people to understand the LDS Church or have a honest discussion about what really happened you are going to tell people they don't belong?

I don't make the forum rules, happyhummingbird. If you want to have a debate in which you are free to express your opinion, start one in another forum. This one was started in the Same Faith Debates forum, which means that the only people who are supposed to be posting are members (not former members) of the specified faith -- which, in this case, is LDS.