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LDS Contradiction of the Bible. Tenable?

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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Note: I am fairly sure that this is not meant to be an "official" statement of church doctrine. However, the quote from Joseph Smith is, I assume. It is available in full on the LDS site:

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.
Actually, the King Follett Discourse was a funeral address and has never been canonized. This statement is also available on the LDS site:
  • Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
If, in fact, Joseph Smith was accurate in what he said (in the King Follett Discourse), he was clearly speaking on a topic on which the Bible is silent. The Bible starts out "in the beginning." It does not even mention the time before the beginning, before the clock started ticking, so to speak. Since God is believed to be eternal, He was obviously doing something before creating our universe. Basically, what it boils down to is that many Latter-day Saints have some beliefs concerning what God may have been doing prior to when He created our universe. The King Follett Discourse is the most comprehensive sermon we have on the subject but is not and never has been official doctrine. That said, a great many Mormons do believe that it was an inspired sermon.
 
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gsa

Well-Known Member
Actually, the King Follett Discourse was a funeral address and has never been canonized. This statement is also available on the LDS site:
  • Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
If, in fact, Joseph Smith was accurate in what he said (in the King Follett Discourse), he was clearly speaking on a topic on which the Bible is silent. The Bible starts out "in the beginning." It does not even mention the time before the beginning, before the clock started ticking, so to speak. Since God is believed to be eternal, He was obviously doing something before creating our universe. Basically, what it boils down to is that many Latter-day Saints have some beliefs concerning what God may have been doing prior to when He created our universe. The King Follett Discourse is the most comprehensive sermon we have on the subject but is not and never has been official doctrine. That said, a great many Mormons do believe that it was an inspired sermon.


Thank you, that is helpful. I am curious, then, about this 1982 Ensign Q&A regarding the doctrine, in reference to the statement by Lorenzo Snow: —“As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be." More specifically, the question is answered by Gerald N. Lund, Teacher Support Consultant for the Church Education System. He states that the lack of any official pronouncement on the subject is not a valid measure for determining if it is doctrine, as the First Presidency does not speak officially on all doctrinal matters. He states that there is substantial support for this being official doctrine:

Numerous sources could be cited, but one should suffice to show that this doctrine is accepted and taught by the Brethren. In an address in 1971, President Joseph Fielding Smith, then serving as President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said...

“This is a doctrine which delighted President Snow, as it does all of us. (underline added; italics in original). Early in his ministry he received by direct, personal revelation the knowledge that (in the Prophet Joseph Smith’s language), ‘God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens,’ and that men ‘have got to learn how to be Gods … the same as all Gods have done before.’

“After this doctrine had been taught by the Prophet, President Snow felt free to teach it also, and he summarized it in one of the best known couplets in the Church. …


I am of course no expert on Mormon theology or doctrine and I am happy to read any official pronouncements. As I have said elsewhere, my own impression from discussing this issue with Mormons is that the doctrine of exaltation and the pre-creation existence of Heavenly Father is opaque at least in its particulars. For example, this 1992 edition of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism refers to it as "doctrine," but it would appear largely on the basis of it being attributable to Smith. And President Hinckley certainly downplayed the first part of the saying of Snow in public statements, while agreeing with eternal progression.

I am curious what the origins of Heavenly Mother are. Is she co-eternal or was she also formed out of pre-existing matter?
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
But who says the bible is correct, after all its just full of books that won the position over other books, beginning from the first council of Nicaea after a long battle over what should be and what should not be put into the book of books.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
The council of Nicea only decided the New Testament books, the Old Testament books were already established from the septuagint, I believe.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
The council of Nicea only decided the New Testament books, the Old Testament books were already established from the septuagint, I believe.
Yes your right, but as far as I know even the books of the old testament were fiddled with, I think any Jew would agree, but yea thanks for bringing that up my friend.
 

zomg

I aim to misbehave!
Trying to figure out what is Mormon doctrine and what is not is like trying to nail Jello to the wall. What is doctrine one decade might be completely disregarded the next decade. Very confusing.

The Book of Mormon's view of God is pretty similar to the Bible if you read it without modern Mormonism's interpretation. I believe Joseph Smith's views on God changed as can be seen in the various versions of The First Vision. One part in the Book of Mormon always confused me since I was taught God, Jesus, and The Holy Ghost were three separate people -

Mosiah 15
"
And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people."

Mormons DO believe in multiple Gods. At least they did until a recent essay was released. I was taught there were more Gods than our God. I was taught he was a man from another planet. I believed it. Other members believed it. Read up on the Adam-God doctrine for a further mind explosion.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Trying to figure out what is Mormon doctrine and what is not is like trying to nail Jello to the wall. What is doctrine one decade might be completely disregarded the next decade. Very confusing.
It'll shift minute to minute depending upon what you pin them down on.
...
Mormons DO believe in multiple Gods. At least they did until a recent essay was released. I was taught there were more Gods than our God. I was taught he was a man from another planet. I believed it. Other members believed it. Read up on the Adam-God doctrine for a further mind explosion.
I believe you are correct, however, soon a troop of Mormons will tramp through here and assure everyone that they are just normal monotheist Christians with no need to tell the truth when it comes to world history or zoogeography.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
Trying to figure out what is Mormon doctrine and what is not is like trying to nail Jello to the wall. What is doctrine one decade might be completely disregarded the next decade. Very confusing.

The Book of Mormon's view of God is pretty similar to the Bible if you read it without modern Mormonism's interpretation. I believe Joseph Smith's views on God changed as can be seen in the various versions of The First Vision. One part in the Book of Mormon always confused me since I was taught God, Jesus, and The Holy Ghost were three separate people -

Mosiah 15
"
And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son—

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son—

4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people."

Mormons DO believe in multiple Gods. At least they did until a recent essay was released. I was taught there were more Gods than our God. I was taught he was a man from another planet. I believed it. Other members believed it. Read up on the Adam-God doctrine for a further mind explosion.


This is interesting. Are you an ex-Mormon? My understanding is that some of these doctrines are more firmly held by Mormon fundamentalists/polygamists, including the Adam-God doctrine (which is the doctrine taught by Brigham Young and many other early Mormons that Adam of Adam and Eve fame was God the Father, for those who do not know of it).
 

zomg

I aim to misbehave!
This is interesting. Are you an ex-Mormon? My understanding is that some of these doctrines are more firmly held by Mormon fundamentalists/polygamists, including the Adam-God doctrine (which is the doctrine taught by Brigham Young and many other early Mormons that Adam of Adam and Eve fame was God the Father, for those who do not know of it).
Yes. I resigned 3 years ago. I found out the LDS church wasn't what it claimed to be and left.

You are correct in saying the fundamentalists hold on to the teachings which have since been denied/ignored by the SLC Branch of Mormonism. I brought up Adam-God because it shows how much Mormonism changes over the years. Adam-God was a belief Brigham Young taught, even in the temple, that has since been swept under the rug. It's the same with the belief of becoming a God and ruling over your own planet. People say the Book of Mormon musical made up that belief and Mormons don't really believe it. Unfortunately, I was taught it to be true. Talk about an ego boost :p
 
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Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I see. So when an atheist discusses Mormonism, without giving credence to the religion, in a section of an internet forum titled "Religious Debates," this constitutes an "unmerited attack" on the Mormon belief system?

Mormons are free to believe whatever they want to believe. And in "Religious Debates," we are free to discuss those beliefs openly. You need not turn every topical thread into a meta debate over whether the discussion is appropriate. If you want to discuss religion in the absence of skepticism and criticism, the DIRs are waiting.

Actually my problems started with an atheist, Mycroft, using Christianity to bash Mormonism. If you want to attack Mormonism from an atheist viewpoint without need of Christianity, you're welcome to it, in my opinion. You can't have it both ways; call yourself an atheist but quote scripture and rely on Christianity to make your arguments from it. That's my contention.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Yup. And the modern interpretation is very different from main Christianity. Which is fine but the Mormons keep saying their have the same beliefs as Christians.
Yes, but they don't, anyone knows that, yes I feel sorry for these people who are lead to believe such nonsense, its beyond me how they are caught up in this imaginary world.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
Actually my problems started with an atheist, Mycroft, using Christianity to bash Mormonism. If you want to attack Mormonism from an atheist viewpoint without need of Christianity, you're welcome to it, in my opinion. You can't have it both ways; call yourself an atheist but quote scripture and rely on Christianity to make your arguments from it. That's my contention.

Atheists, particularly atheists who are ex-Christian or familiar with Christianity, are free to discuss the ways that Mormonism appears to be incompatible with Christian scriptures, traditions, predominant beliefs and practices. Must we also accept that Alawites and Druze are compatible with Islam, or that Messianic Judaism is compatible with the Jewish religion, on the basis of the claims of the Alawites, Druze and Messianic Jews? I do not think so. Not when the overwhelming majority of Muslims and Jews tell us otherwise. Not when their beliefs and practices are so at variance with the scriptures, traditions and practices of the overwhelming majority of Muslims and Jews.

Besides, Mormonism has a number of doctrines and/or traditions that clearly distinguish it from historic Christianity: Continuing revelation, the importance of the New World (including the tradition that the human race originated in what would become the United States), the doctrine of eternal progression (humans achieving godhood), eternal marriage (including eternal plural marriage), the baptism of the dead, the endowment ceremony, Heavenly Mother, rejection of creation ex nihilo, the pre-existence of humans as spirits and the literal fatherhood of their god, etc. Sociologists and historians of religion consider it to be a uniquely American religion, a point that the Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox denominations appear to agree with since they refuse to recognize the validity of Mormon baptism.


Many Mormons take exception to outsiders discussing these matters and they can of course correct us, or at least engage with us, if they believe that we are wrong about a particular doctrine, practice or tradition. Similarly, if Christians feel that we are not adequately describing their religion and its role in relationship to Islam they are also free to engage. I am happy to engage with Katzpur and others on these points, because it can move discussion forward.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Thank you, that is helpful. I am curious, then, about this 1982 Ensign Q&A regarding the doctrine, in reference to the statement by Lorenzo Snow: —“As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be." More specifically, the question is answered by Gerald N. Lund, Teacher Support Consultant for the Church Education System. He states that the lack of any official pronouncement on the subject is not a valid measure for determining if it is doctrine, as the First Presidency does not speak officially on all doctrinal matters. He states that there is substantial support for this being official doctrine:

Numerous sources could be cited, but one should suffice to show that this doctrine is accepted and taught by the Brethren. In an address in 1971, President Joseph Fielding Smith, then serving as President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said...

“This is a doctrine which delighted President Snow, as it does all of us. (underline added; italics in original). Early in his ministry he received by direct, personal revelation the knowledge that (in the Prophet Joseph Smith’s language), ‘God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens,’ and that men ‘have got to learn how to be Gods … the same as all Gods have done before.’

“After this doctrine had been taught by the Prophet, President Snow felt free to teach it also, and he summarized it in one of the best known couplets in the Church. …


I am of course no expert on Mormon theology or doctrine and I am happy to read any official pronouncements. As I have said elsewhere, my own impression from discussing this issue with Mormons is that the doctrine of exaltation and the pre-creation existence of Heavenly Father is opaque at least in its particulars. For example, this 1992 edition of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism refers to it as "doctrine," but it would appear largely on the basis of it being attributable to Smith. And President Hinckley certainly downplayed the first part of the saying of Snow in public statements, while agreeing with eternal progression.
In 2007, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (Mormonism's highest-ranking "General Authorities), issued the statement that I quoted from: Approaching Mormon Doctrine (link). You may wish to read it in its entirety as it is not long.

I previously quoted one paragraph from that statement. Here is another:
  • Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.
That paragraph is almost more important, in my opinion, than the one I quoted previously, at least with regards to a discussion of God's origins. You could attend LDS worship services for years on end (as I have) and never hear a sermon or a lesson on God's origins. Very infrequently, someone may make mention of either the King Follett Discourse or Lorenzo Snow's couplet, but it's never more than just a passing comment. If you were to go to the Church's official website and were to do a search of all the General Conference talks of the past nearly 40 years (that would be literally thousands of talks by the Church's General Authorities) to see how extensively the subject of God's origins is taught, you would find what I did when tried it. I first searched on "Follett." I found two entries, both quoting from paragraphs in the King Follett Discourse that had nothing to do with God's origins. When I searched on "As man is, God once was," not a single mention of the statement came up.

When you ask "What are the LDS Church's doctrines?" you could really be asking one of two possible questions: (1) "What teachings are canonical? What teachings are doctrinally binding on members of the Church?" Or you could be asking, (2) "What do Mormons teach in their adult Sunday School classes or in Priesthood Meeting (for males) or Relief Society (for females)?"

Once I month, I teach a 30-minute lesson in Relief Society. I am assigned a topic each month based on a talk (i.e. sermon) from the previous General Conference (there are 2 such conferences each year). Last month I had to teach a lesson entitled, "The Sacrament -- A Renewal for the Soul." It was on what we call "the Sacrament" and what most Christians refer to as "Communion" or "the Lord's Supper." During the lesson, one woman raised her hand and asked, "My mother used to always tell me that I was supposed to take the Sacrament with my right hand. Is that right?" I replied by asking the class if anyone knew of any scriptural support for the instructions her mother had given her. No one knew of any (there isn't any) but a couple of other women said, "Yeah, I can remember being told that, too, but come to think of it, I've never read anything to that effect in the scriptures." Suppose I had been taught that I must take the Sacrament with my right hand (which I wasn't) and it had been drilled into my head that this was really important. I could have answered the first woman's question by saying, "Yes, that is absolutely right. You must take the Sacrament with the right hand." If the word "doctrine" is just a synonym for the word "teaching," all thirty or so women in the class could leave the class believing that "Mormon doctrine is that you must take the Sacrament with your right hand." And suddenly Katzpur, having "taught" this, would have been declaring doctrine. This is how misunderstandings about what is and what is not official doctrinal, and it's why I am always careful to only post "official church doctrine" when I post at all. If I am merely presenting my own opinion or perspective, I make a point of saying so.

With respect to President Snow's well-known couplet, President Hinckley probably downplayed the first part of the saying ("As man is, God once was...") because it cannot be scripturally supported and is therefore not "official doctrine." The second part of the couplet, ("As God is, man may become.") is doctrinal. It is a one-line summary of the doctrine of Eternal Progression, for which there is scriptural support. It basically falls into the category of a teaching that is "peripheral to the Church’s purpose instead being placed at the very center." (Refer to the paragraph I posted in red font.)

A number of LDS leaders (more recent than past) have advised the members of the Church not to waste a lot of time speculating on doctrines that are somewhat vague (you used the word "opaque"). Some, however, don't seem to be able to resist the urge. Finding reasons for things we don't understand seems to be something human beings are inclined to do. In the case of Snow couplet, one might argue that if the second half of the statement is doctrinal, the first half is a logical possibility. In other words, if we can become godlike, could not the reverse be true as well? Still, saying that something "could be" does not make it so.

Regarding Gerald Lund's statement... Gerald Lund eventually became an LDS General Authority (although never as high-ranking as an Apostle). At the time he made the statement (in a Church periodical), he was a lay member of the Church voicing his own opinion as to what comprised Mormon doctrine.
I am curious what the origins of Heavenly Mother are. Is she co-eternal or was she also formed out of pre-existing matter?
I'm afraid I can't help you out with this one at all. If I were to venture a guess, I'd say she was co-eternal with God, but I could be wrong as easily as I could be right.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
But who says the bible is correct, after all its just full of books that won the position over other books, beginning from the first council of Nicaea after a long battle over what should be and what should not be put into the book of books.
Actually, the first council of Nicaea had nothing to do with what should be included in the biblical canon. It was to determine the nature of God. If you're seeking for even greater accuracy, you might say that the first council of Nicaea convened to enable Constantine to solidify his empire by putting an end to Christian bickering about Jesus Christ's relationship to His Father. It's really pretty interesting to consider the fact that the Pope at that time wasn't even in attendance. :eek:
 
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