Lack of Evidence?

[Quiddity]

For all non-theists. What is it exactly that causes you to not believe in a diety? Is it as simple as lack of evidence?
At some point I really thought that was it. But when I have asked "What if God came down from the heavens". I would get interesting and different responses. Some would say,'that's all I would need". Is there something deep in the non-theist that does not allow he/she to believe? Something beyond their objections?

Let me know your thoughts.

~Victor

 

[dorsk188]

Well, personally, I would cite several reasons:
A) Lack of Evidence: Like you said. Ockham's razor. There is no need for a god, there is no evidence of such a being.
B) The Fallibility of Early Humans: Most religions trace their roots to early men who couldn't explain how lightning works. Why believe them to tell you the ultimate truth of the universe?
C) The Variety of Faiths: There are literally thousands of religions, and certainly dozens of different religious traditions. Why believe in YHWH instead of Brahma? Why Allah instead of Buddha? Why not Thor, Nut, or Cronus? Even though all religions are different, none of them are uniquely better or more true than the others (that I can see). The obvious conclusion is that they are all products of humanity.

As for your "If he decended from heaven" question: I would ask for a more specific example. If a guy floated down from the sky, claiming to be God? No, probably not. I would check him for jetpacks, transparent parachutes, alien technology, etc, before believing his claim. Of course, I'm not immovable. If suffecient evidence was shown to me, evidence I could not explain any other way than "He is God", then I would tenatively deem him so.

Most importantly, I don't think even then, that I could be convinced that the Abrahamic God exists. The OT and NT simply describe a thing that contradicts itself, and that's impossible for the thing to do, so it cannot exist. I don't want to get into a debate about whether or not such a being could exist, but I feel I should tell you that the #1 reason I reject Judaism/Christianity/Islam is the OT/NT/Koran.

Hope that answers your questions, and if you want to ask more questions, keep 'em comin'.

 

[Valjean]

Let me turn this question around a bit, Victor. What is it that withholds your believing in Humpty-Dumpty or Odin? Is it simply lack of evidence?

If God really were interested in being recognized or cared that humans had a correct understanding of His will, surely he would bellow forth from the clouds -- or at least leave text messages on all our cell phones simultaneously.

 

[cmotdibbler]

Lack of evidence has to be pretty high on the list. Also the interesting corellation between the local religion and geography that would suggest either multiple gods or that god is a manifestation of each respective culture's foray into social engineering.

Apologies to Dorsk188 (I wrote this offline without seeing his comments)

Victor, the problem with your thought exercise "what if God came down from the heavens?" is the lack of many important bits of information. Your premise might sound simple in an off-the-cuff conversation but when you think about it more you need to provide details regarding....

Do you mean the "sky" when you say "heavens"? If it is the sky does "he" float down gently or arrive in some sort of vehicle. Describe the vehicle. Are there interesting effects?

If the arrival is at a specific place (Jerusalem?) why was that place chosen over another that would have more unbiased witnesses (say Beijing)? Isn't the whole point of "god" to have people believe in him so that they worship him? If so,there are some cities with huge populations that would be tempting targets for God's touchdown. Will the arrival be televised or will we all get some divine perception that god has arrived? How are the various governments of the world reacting, I would guess high military alerts with alot of scrambling around by the politicians.

What is the appearance of "God", is he black, white, brown, asian? Is he tall? What about gender, is god clearly masculine, feminine or gender-neutral? Does God know shame? If so then s/he must be wearing clothing of some sort. What kind of clothes would god wear? Is it a synthetic blend, cotton, or animal hides? Do they have plants and animals in heaven in order to make garments? If god doesn't know shame, then he must be naked. To be indelicate about this but I would want to know... is God *above* average. Since there was so much obsession about this in the OT, is god circumicised?

How do you know this is God? Couldn't it simply be Satan posing as god? How do you know this isn't just a representative of a more technologically advanced civilization having some fun with the local yokels? How do you know this is the same god as described in the Bible?

What is the purpose of God's visit? To provide proof to a "fallen" world? To bring about the Rapture? Is this the proverbial "fat lady singing"? Are Hindus, Sikhs, Buddists, etc all given the same version of god or are there localized versions according to the cultural norms? Is God speaking or proclaiming his dominion, if so then in what language is he speaking? Is it mandarin chinese, spoken by more people over the the world or an ancient language? Is he using some sort of amplifier?

Most importantly....
Will there be a question and answer session?

After all this, I could only simply conclude that an entity came from the sky (unaided) and claimed to be god. My approach to such an entity will depend on his actions and statements after arrival, this might lead to "belief" but certainly not "worship".

 

[Ceridwen018]

or at least leave text messages on all our cell phones simultaneously.

Hehehehehe!

Lack of evidence is what does it for me. Whether or not "God coming down from the heavens" is proper evidence...well, I suppose that will all be analyzed when it happens.

 

[Quiddity]

Well, personally, I would cite several reasons:
A) Lack of Evidence: Like you said. Ockham's razor. There is no need for a god, there is no evidence of such a being.
B) The Fallibility of Early Humans: Most religions trace their roots to early men who couldn't explain how lightning works. Why believe them to tell you the ultimate truth of the universe?
C) The Variety of Faiths: There are literally thousands of religions, and certainly dozens of different religious traditions. Why believe in YHWH instead of Brahma? Why Allah instead of Buddha? Why not Thor, Nut, or Cronus? Even though all religions are different, none of them are uniquely better or more true than the others (that I can see). The obvious conclusion is that they are all products of humanity.

As for your "If he decended from heaven" question: I would ask for a more specific example. If a guy floated down from the sky, claiming to be God? No, probably not. I would check him for jetpacks, transparent parachutes, alien technology, etc, before believing his claim. Of course, I'm not immovable. If suffecient evidence was shown to me, evidence I could not explain any other way than "He is God", then I would tenatively deem him so.

Most importantly, I don't think even then, that I could be convinced that the Abrahamic God exists. The OT and NT simply describe a thing that contradicts itself, and that's impossible for the thing to do, so it cannot exist. I don't want to get into a debate about whether or not such a being could exist, but I feel I should tell you that the #1 reason I reject Judaism/Christianity/Islam is the OT/NT/Koran.

Hope that answers your questions, and if you want to ask more questions, keep 'em comin'.

A) Understandable.
B) You had some of the most philosophical and intelligent to the dumbest. It can go both ways......... . This doesn't really weigh as a heavy justification.
C) Wanting Truth and searching is all you need. God knows the hearts of men. Whether you find the proper one or not.

Most importantly, I don't think even then, that I could be convinced that the Abrahamic God exists.

This is the type of stuff I'm talking about. Why even say you want evidence if you will resist at any cost?

~Victor

 

[Quiddity]

Let me turn this question around a bit, Victor. What is it that withholds your believing in Humpty-Dumpty or Odin? Is it simply lack of evidence?.

Reasons, reasons, and reasons. Humpty-Dumpty is simply to fragile to be god and is full of cholestrol.

If God really were interested in being recognized or cared that humans had a correct understanding of His will, surely he would bellow forth from the clouds -- or at least leave text messages on all our cell phones simultaneously.

Seyorni, because I get responses like:
"Most importantly, I don't think even then, that I could be convinced that the Abrahamic God exists."

Makes me think that God coming down would make no difference for some. Is this secluded to the Abrahamic God?

~Victor

 

[Quiddity]

cmotdibbler, I'll leave the details to you. What ever it took for you to conclude he is truly God.

~Victor

 

[cmotdibbler]

Hmm.. an interesting twist on the old saying that "the Devil is in the details" :biglaugh:.

If, after close inspection, I can only conclude that "God" is in fact here and it is the same "God" as in the bible. Then I would have no choice but to "believe" he exists. This belief does not require my worship of the diety nor even reflect on the present status of his omnipotence.

Perhaps Satan won a decisive battle and banished God to Earth? This God could still be the creator of the universe and man who became complacent. The same would apply if Biblegod lost a battle with gods from the Hindu, Greek, or Egyption pantheons and was banished here.

What if you were faced with the fact that you believe in a second-string god?

 

[Pah]

From a previous post - You can see that it is not a lack of evidence for me

For existence (and tailored to Christianity), I think we have

• The Bible
• Personal revelation that confirms the Bible or even advances faith beyond the literal word. This would include the writings of the Early Church fathers and pronouncements from Spiritual leaders.

Evidence for non-existence

• Contradictions in the literal Bible with the thought that a powerful God would make sure his Word (and translation) was clear, unambigious, logical to readers, and scientifically accurate - not needing interpretation
• The absence of an historical Jesus
• The pluracy of Biblical translations
• Conflicting theology within the Body of Christ
• The success of Scientology which was created on a bet

The evidence from science and scholarship includes

• The study of mythology as coordinated by Joseph Campbell
• The advancements of science to explain how a possible God did something
• The recent advancements of socio evolution showing how God was created which include
  • the beginnings of language
  • the evolution of morality
  • The evolution of law apart from morality
  • The study of child development which leads to confirm socio evolution
  • The study of society's beginnings
• The philosophy of Locke in the 1st book of his Essay on Human Understanding
• The religious experience I have had (anecdotal)

Those arguments based on Christianity would readily extrapolate, I believe, to any other religious system in varing degrees based on the scientific and scholastic evidence

 

[cmotdibbler]

I'll admit to setting the bar pretty high for belief in a god. The type of proof required for me to worship the creator is for me, non-sensical since I cannot comprehend why a creator requires worship. One could always respond that it is not within man to know the whims of god but then why bother anyway.

I'm just wondering what point Victor is trying to make here. Is he trying to prove that atheists are as inflexible as some atheists claim christians are? Some christians say that atheists don't believe in god so they can carry on with their sinful lifestyle without guilt or fear of judgement. Surely there are some overly rigid atheists just like there are some who don't think it through and do simply want to engage in their "sinful" behavior.

Better to stop here since I'd rather not put words in Vic's mouth.

 

[Valjean]

Good points cmotdibbler.

I have a lovely, huge anthill in my yard; big, industrious ants. I like my anthill. Sometimes I feed it. I don't expect the ants to worship me, understand me, or pay any attention at all to me, though. They are not in my league and I don't expect them to be.

 

[joeboonda]

Hi! Well, I believe in God, and I am a Christian, and if you dont that's ok with me. I know many people dont see evidence of God, and I understand that. When I look around, though, I feel like the very creation, with its intelligent design and complexity would merit an intelligent creator. The more I study nature, the more I see not only the beauty, and wonder of it, I see that it had to have been created by a highly-intelligent being. The human eye, body, the balance of the atmosphere, the inner programmings of brains of birds, animals, even a banana is to me a well thought out creation. The Bible says that the creation is one of the main things that shows God's handiwork, and I see it! Another thing the Bible says points us to God is our conscience, he has written his word in our heart. And a third is the prophecies that came true 100% and 100% accurate, except those that are yet to come. The Bible warns that people would become wise in their own eyes denying the creator, and thus become fools. It says the fool has said in his heart, there is no God. Well I ain't no fool, lol. Just thought I'd add my opinion, thanks, and peace!

 

[cmotdibbler]

Yes! You have absolute dominion over the ant hill. You could smite them with fire, flood, or poison yet choose not to do it. Overall, it is just another anthill and you are just another human. No deity required.

 

[joeboonda]

ants are cool. The Bible says God created everything for his glory, the whole creation, even ants.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

For all non-theists. What is it exactly that causes you to not believe in a diety? Is it as simple as lack of evidence?

Lack of evidence, contempt for the God-of-the-Gaps, and a deep appreciation for the power of methodological naturalism.

What causes you to not believe in Pixies?

 

[cmotdibbler]

Belated welcome Joeboonda,
I too admire the complexity encountered in the environment. In my molecular genetics lab I have an old bottle of 5M NaCl that has formed huge crystals. I see no more intelligent design in this crystal formation than in the complexities of the trabecular meshwork that filter aqueous humor and regulate intraocular pressure in the eye.

Since I've been attending a fundamentalist, non-denominational church and various bible studies for only 15 years I have had no religious experiences or evidence of the efficacy of prayer. People with terminal diseases died an early death 100% percent of the time. There have been a couple of nasty divorces and a shocking number of tragic motor accidents for such a small congregation.

I'd like to hear about the 100% fulfilled biblical prophesies (with references) in the appropriate forum but please avoid the typical cut/paste routine.

peace

 

[Quiddity]

I'm just wondering what point Victor is trying to make here.

I'm not trying to make a point, but simply trying to understand. Like you said, there are some overly rigid atheists and some "simply want to engage in their sinful behavior".
This isn't foreign with Christians either. You got your lax ones and your rigid ones.


I was only seeking for answers further then the objections made. But I suppose that will differ from individual to individual.

~Victor

 

[Quiddity]

Lack of evidence, contempt for the God-of-the-Gaps, and a deep appreciation for the power of methodological naturalism.

Hmm...interesting how you said power.

What causes you to not believe in Pixies?

I already answered this.

~Victor

 

[cmotdibbler]

That's cool Victor. I didn't know if you were actually interested in the answer.