Koran v. Bible

[1robin]

But you seem to be missing the point.The point is how do you differentiate between one who calles himself Christian but doesn't actually follow Christ, and one who actually follows the commandments of the Father? So, my point is, just by calling one Christian, it does not prove, he would in practice follows Christ, neither understands the Bible.

This has nothing to do with what you said. You said Christ did not write for the benifit of Christians or something like that. I do not have to determine who is a Christian or not to know that Christs words are applicable to Christians.

Also, according to the Bible, in Return of Christ, He and His Followers are called by a new name:



Rev. 3:12 " Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

I do not have the energy to look up all the things you are missenterpreting here. Since Jerusalem has not come down out of the Heavens which is necessary for this event to happen then your guy has no connection to this verse. This new Jerusalem will be made of precious stones and descend from heaven full of mansions created for the redeemed and has obviously not shown up yet.

So, the above verse in our view says, Christ would come with a new name, and He would write on the ones who would remain to live during the new Age and believes in Him, His new name

In our view, that Name is "Baha"​

This might be applicable if we were living in the post end times. You start with a false premise and then build layer upon layer of false biblical doctrine on it. I am going to once again show the drastic faults of your interpretations in response to your feeding the five thousand posts but I am growing weary straightening out your interpretations. You seem to be primarily driven by an ideology that forces you to adopt interpretations that are impossible, false, and contradict all accepted scholars views.​

 

[1robin]

Again it seems you ignored the point. Moses prophesized about Messiah, who would be a world Messenger.

So? More people know who Jesus is than any other figure in human history.

The point is, you are saying for the past 2 thousands years, understanding of Bible is stablished by Christians, therefore it is impossible they could make major mistakes regarding interpretaion of Bible.

I never said that. They have made countless mistakes but over the course of thousands of years almost all those mistakes have been identified and worked through. There is even vast contribution from secular scholars who has confirmed the interpretations even though they do not accept the religion. I have no idea what problem you think you have found.

Before Jesus, the Jews also stablished the interpretation of Bible for more than 1000 years, but they didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah, because they had a different interpretation of their own Book.

I have already addressed this in detail.

So, how do you know that Christians understood the interpretation of Bible? Simply because they are called "Christians"?

I never said this either. I personally know that the core beliefs of Christian doctrine are correct because when I did what they required I recieved what they promised. I did not say only Christians have contributed to biblical truth either. It has been scrutinized by counntless people from countless world views and the vast majority of doctrine has been agreed upon for more than 10 times longer then Baha'i has even existed. Whatever issues Christian donctrine has they are multiplied many times over for Baha'i. How can you compare the most studied book in human history with a relatively new faith that most people are unaware of and who holy texts are not even all known yet and have infinately less studied? There are indeed some bible doctrine issues that are not agreed upon by a strong majority but they are not the ones you have stated. Yours have for the most part been slam dunk incorrect as well as impossible to reconcile with the biblical narrative as you will see with your feeding the people issue.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I know of no case of their methods produceing a result that was later judged to be wrong. These rules go back thousands of years and have survived more scrutiny than any other text ever has by many times over. They sure are not superceeded by a guy who invented a religion that attempts to reconcile the unreconcileable and interprets almost everything an impossible and contradictory way.

Ok, let's try the rule. You are saying all verses are literal unless it is impossible to be interpreted literally.

So, let's consider: "Let the Dead bury their Dead"

Well, God can do miracle to make a physically dead person to be burried by another Physically Dead person:

He would raise a dead person from his grave, then that person buries the other dead person, then God make him go sleep in his grave and die, and with the wind He places dust on him and buries him too.
You see? you can always say, God can do miracle to make something impossible. So, I am sorry, this is the major issue with your way of interpreting.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This has nothing to do with what you said. You said Christ did not write for the benifit of Christians or something like that. I do not have to determine who is a Christian or not to know that Christs words are applicable to Christians.

Sorry, you misunderstood me then.

I do not have the energy to look up all the things you are missenterpreting here.

You have not been able to show me with any proof I am misinterpreting, therefore my points still holds.

Since Jerusalem has not come down out of the Heavens which is necessary for this event to happen then your guy has no connection to this verse.

Only to the best of your knowledge.
Again going by your own rule:
Scripture is literal unless it is impossible to be interpreted literally.
In our view it is impossible for Jurasalem to come down, so this is Figurative verse. In our view this already happend. By New Jurisalem it was meant the New Law and Faith of God, which in our view is Baha'i Faith.

This new Jerusalem will be made of precious stones and descend from heaven full of mansions created for the redeemed and has obviously not shown up yet.

See above please.
You also ignored my quote from Revelation:
"The Book is sealed with Seven seals"
So, in our view it is unlseald for us.

This might be applicable if we were living in the post end times. You start with a false premise and then build layer upon layer of false biblical doctrine on it. I am going to once again show the drastic faults of your interpretations in response to your feeding the five thousand posts but I am growing weary straightening out your interpretations. You seem to be primarily driven by an ideology that forces you to adopt interpretations that are impossible, false, and contradict all accepted scholars views.

You have not shown me anything to prove your point, only comenting with no proofs.
As I said, in our view all the signs of end has passed. I had told you to choose 3 that you claim has not passed, which you did not, so my point still holds.

-Peace

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I never said this either.

Good, so you admitte the possibility that the interpretations of the Bible by mainstream Christians could have major issues.

I personally know that the core beliefs of Christian doctrine are correct because when I did what they required I recieved what they promised.

This is your own personal belief, with no proof. You are respected for your belief though, but doesn't prove anything.

 

[1robin]

Ok, let's try the rule. You are saying all verses are literal unless it is impossible to be interpreted literally.

So, let's consider: "Let the Dead bury their Dead"

Well, God can do miracle to make a physically dead person to be burried by another Physically Dead person:

He would raise a dead person from his grave, then that person buries the other dead person, then God make him go sleep in his grave and die, and with the wind He places dust on him and buries him too.
You see? you can always say, God can do miracle to make something impossible. So, I am sorry, this is the major issue with your way of interpreting.

I am speechless. Since there is no reference anywhere that God did raise anyone to bury anyone else. Since God could have turned the Earth wrong side out 15 minutes ago but there is no evidence whatsoever that he did then for that to have happened is impossible. You are confusing what transpired with what God was capable of. This was one of the strangest points I have ever seen anyone make concerning any issue ever. If this is the type of critical thinking that leads to the interpretations you have then the results should not suprise me. If you would please wait until I address the Feeding people verses before you keep going. You jump from one claim to a another none of which are backed up in anyway and so require much time to straighten out that nothing can be addressed in detail.

 

[1robin]

Sorry, you misunderstood me then.

Ok

You have not been able to show me with any proof I am misinterpreting, therefore my points still holds.

Ihave shown you many examples in detail that make a literal interpretation for most of the verses you have mentioned virtually certain at best your position has an infinately smaller likelyhood of being true.

Only to the best of your knowledge.

I think I would have noticed a new city descending from heaven. The world is only round to the best of my and virtually every scholar as well. So? Has Baha'i reinterpreted the shape of the planet with everything else?

Again going by your own rule:
Scripture is literal unless it is impossible to be interpreted literally.
In our view it is impossible for Jurasalem to come down, so this is Figurative verse. In our view this already happend. By New Jurisalem it was meant the New Law and Faith of God, which in our view is Baha'i Faith.

Since this is a future event compared with a past event for which there is no evidence to conclude a spiritual explenation possible then a literal interpretation is impossible to rule out. I have never seen points so easily for me to refute and that did so little good in my life.

See above please.
You also ignored my quote from Revelation:
"The Book is sealed with Seven seals"
So, in our view it is unlseald for us.

That is a reference to scrolls in heaven not the bible. has Baha'i written a completely different Bible and Quran. I have never addressed so many claims that were so diametrically opposed to obvious facts in my life. I am beginning to think it was the purpose of Baha'i to adopt the opposite conclusion of well accepted doctrine established over thousands of years. Complicating the obvious and trivialising the momentous is a strange basis for a religion.

You have not shown me anything to prove your point, only comenting with no proofs.
As I said, in our view all the signs of end has passed. I had told you to choose 3 that you claim has not passed, which you did not, so my point still holds.

My comments supported by scripture, scholars, and commentators trumps whatever you have given. It is as close to a proof as religion gets. I assume that last statement concerns the second coming, as I have not had time to show all the problems with previous claims you made to even address yet. Let me address the five thousand and we can look at the second coming. However I am becomeing more and more convinced that there isn't any evidence no matter how strong or complete to sway your precommitment to an ideology. There isn't any claims more obvious and universaly accepted than the ones I have shown. Whatever drawbacks (if any) to my position they are far more numerous and severe for Baha'i. In no category does the evidence for Baha'i even approach the relm of certainty for the bible. Whatever drives your confidence in your understanding of the Bible (and from what I can tell the Quran either) isn't based on scholarship, scripture, consistency, evidence, or doctrine. I have no idea what your understanding is based on beyond preference.

Selah,

 

[1robin]

Good, so you admitte the possibility that the interpretations of the Bible by mainstream Christians could have major issues.

I have said specifically that there are areas that no concensus view has been established. They are almost universally complicated doctrinal areas like the Trinity. They are not the simplistic literal verses symbolic issue you have brought up. Your issues are very basic and to have well established obvious interpretations.

This is your own personal belief, with no proof. You are respected for your belief though, but doesn't prove anything.

No this is absolute objective fact. You just have no access to the fact. If I claim I have a headache. Then that statement would be objective fact even though you have no access to it. If the bible said to say a certain word and a purple dragon would appear for 10 seconds. Then if I did that and one did appear then my belief in that claim of the bible is an objective fact as well. I did what the bible says to do and I had the experience the bible says I would have. It is possible I am lying but it is not possible it is my opinion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I am speechless. Since there is no reference anywhere that God did raise anyone to bury anyone else.

Then we are having a disagreement about how to interprete the Bible. I think we need to sort this out before we can continue.

First let's see what is your reference regarding the Miracles of Jesus. It is irrelevant if there is a reference anywhere or not (in this case) unless you have an unbiased reference regarding the Miracles of Jesus, becuase we are talking about interpreting the verses of a Book which was written thousands years ago, and the only acceptable reference is the Bible itself in my view.

In my openion we can only rely on the Bible as a reference. You cannot use the openion of certain scholars that interpreted the Bible in the way you agree with, and claim this is your reference, because that is using a biased source. You need to use an unbiased reference, so we can agree on.

In the case of the verses that you claim are the Miracles of Jesus, do you have any reference other than the Bible? I am talking a historical evidence that is recorded by someones who were not Christians, and is accepted by archialogists or other scientific evidents as a reference.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That is a reference to scrolls in heaven not the bible.

If you read those verses regarding the Book that is sealed with seven, and each angel comes and open a seal, you will see , it is talking about events that are happening on the earth. So, your point regarding the scrolls in heaven is not in accordance with the Biblical verses. Also, since, as you even say, the Bible is the only Book of God, that is meant for the Christians, then, you have no other choice to accept, the Book which is sealed is the Bible.
Here are some verses, which proves, the events regarding the opening the seals are on the earth:

"And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the
earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and
with death, and with the beasts of the earth. 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal"

And I beheld when
he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a
great earthquake; and the sun became black as
sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as
blood;

7:2 And I saw another angel
ascending from the east, having the seal of the
living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the
four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the
earth and the sea,

 

[1robin]

Then we are having a disagreement about how to interprete the Bible. I think we need to sort this out before we can continue.

First let's see what is your reference regarding the Miracles of Jesus. It is irrelevant if there is a reference anywhere or not (in this case) unless you have an unbiased reference regarding the Miracles of Jesus, becuase we are talking about interpreting the verses of a Book which was written thousands years ago, and the only acceptable reference is the Bible itself in my view.

In my openion we can only rely on the Bible as a reference. You cannot use the openion of certain scholars that interpreted the Bible in the way you agree with, and claim this is your reference, because that is using a biased source. You need to use an unbiased reference, so we can agree on.

In the case of the verses that you claim are the Miracles of Jesus, do you have any reference other than the Bible? I am talking a historical evidence that is recorded by someones who were not Christians, and is accepted by archialogists or other scientific evidents as a reference.

I have asked at least concerning your posts to me to allow me to catch up before posting more claims. The doctinal issues are so many and you require an at this time unknown almost infinate amount of data before you might abandon an incorrect position that it takes a long time to reply. Here is what I suggest. I will over the course of today and tomorrow address in detail your claims concerning the feeding of the five thousand. I will do so in so much detail that if you can't see why your position is innacurate that I will conclude there is no amount of data that will do so and we will have to just dissagree. We will allow this one issue as it is typical and IMO your missunderstanding is no more severe with it than your others, to speak on the whole topic. It just happens to be a simple claim that has not been addressed yet. We can discuss this until one or the other is convinced or it appears to be pointless. Then if I and you still regard it as worthwhile we can address the second coming issue.

 

[1robin]

If you read those verses regarding the Book that is sealed with seven, and each angel comes and open a seal, you will see , it is talking about events that are happening on the earth. So, your point regarding the scrolls in heaven is not in accordance with the Biblical verses. Also, since, as you even say, the Bible is the only Book of God, that is meant for the Christians, then, you have no other choice to accept, the Book which is sealed is the Bible.
Here are some verses, which proves, the events regarding the opening the seals are on the earth:

"And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the
earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and
with death, and with the beasts of the earth. 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal"

And I beheld when
he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a
great earthquake; and the sun became black as
sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as
blood;

7:2 And I saw another angel
ascending from the east, having the seal of the
living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the
four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the
earth and the sea,

Angels execute what is in the scrolls. Jesus who is in heaven opened these scrolls.

Chapter 5 introduces a new element:

And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a scroll written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the scroll, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the scroll, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the scroll, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders said unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll, and to loose the seven seals thereof​

John was weeping because no mere man was worthy to pay the price to redeem the entire human race. But the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Jesus, was no mere man. Jesus was our Kinsman Redeemer, and His sacrificial death on the cross paid the price for the entire earth. He had paid the price and was worthy to take the scroll from His heavenly Father. All who acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior will receive the benefits of that redemption

Bible Writer: Revelation 4-5, Preview of Heaven

You have never even went to the sites I gave you have you? Anyway please wait for the post I mentioned before we get into the end time stuff.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Here is what I suggest. I will over the course of today and tomorrow address in detail your claims concerning the feeding of the five thousand.

The problem is that, I am not so sure if you understood what i am trying to say.

So, I think we need to go back a bit to see, what was the purpose of our discussions.
If you recall, you were discussing, the proofs of Baha'u'llah, and if He has Mirracles.
Firstly, we should remind ourselves that a saparate thread should be used for questions regarding Baha'i Faith.

Therefore as I mentioned before, I am not saying that the Messengers are powerless to do Miracles, maybe they even did. I told you even many Baha'is living at the time of Baha'u'llah and the Bab witnessed these Miracles.

But, even as jesus asked, the reason they should believe in Him, is not because of Miracles, but becaues of the spiritual food, or heavenly bread that He gave. So, the point still holds, regrdless if Jesus or Baha'u'llah did any miracles or not.
So, if one believes in Miracles of Jesus, how come he should not believe in miracles of Baha'u'llah? The fact is Miracles could only be a proof to those who witness.

Now, if you say with this particular story of fish and bread, there has been witnesses who saw jesus feeding them, to me witnesses can be only acceptable, if either they are alive to come and testify that they saw, or at least there are written letters from them with their signitures. Moreover, these witnesses, could have been tricked, or they could have been the party of a false prophet.
So, In my openion it is totally vein and pointless, and useless to discuss about miracles and to use them as reference to discuss with others.
Offcourse you are free to believe in whatever you want, but to use them as document and prove is just not acceptable. I hope you realize that.

But the ones that you are particularly saying, in our view is to be interpreted symbolically.
As I said, it is almost always possible to interprete a verse literally, as I showed you regarding "Let dead bury their dead".
In fact, i believe, those who interpreted the Bible in a literal way, and thought they are miracles, they only used their vein imagination to match with bible.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Angels execute what is in the scrolls. Jesus who is in heaven opened these scrolls.

Chapter 5 introduces a new element:

And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a scroll written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the scroll, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the scroll, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the scroll, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders said unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll, and to loose the seven seals thereof
​

John was weeping because no mere man was worthy to pay the price to redeem the entire human race. But the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Jesus, was no mere man. Jesus was our Kinsman Redeemer, and His sacrificial death on the cross paid the price for the entire earth. He had paid the price and was worthy to take the scroll from His heavenly Father. All who acknowledge Him as Lord and Savior will receive the benefits of that redemption

Bible Writer: Revelation 4-5, Preview of Heaven

You have never even went to the sites I gave you have you? Anyway please wait for the post I mentioned before we get into the end time stuff.

But the point is the meaning of opening "the seal". And the seven seals become open one by one, after the appearance of the Angels one by one.

Jesus said "the son of man is in heaven" when at that time He was on earth. So, my point still holds, as the even is on the earth.

The Book that is sealed, is the same Book that danial was talking about. It was supposed to be unsealed at time of the Endacoording to Danial.

The same signs of the End is given in revelation, with regards to the events of unsealing the Book. The signs of the End are given:


"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

​

 

[1robin]

The problem is that, I am not so sure if you understood what i am trying to say.

You compared Bahá'u'lláh with moses Christ and Muhammad. You also said he claimed to be God as well as the second coming of Christ. He is apparently the camelion prophet. I didn't mention Muhammad but Bahá'u'lláh is in no wared comparable to Moses or Christ. As they did massive amounts of miracles among many other things. I have looked and have found no reference to any Bahá'u'lláh miracles. Even muhammad is pretty low on the miracle issue. Since I guess if a prophet can't rise to the level of another then the other must be brought down to the first. IMO that is why your faith has adopted the position that Jesus miracles were not physical miracles after all, even though that is not what 99% of Chrsitains and scholars think and what the text allows for. If 99% of scientists say smoking is bad and you claim it isn't without vast amounts of proof and impune the scientists, it just looks silly.

So, I think we need to go back a bit to see, what was the purpose of our discussions.
If you recall, you were discussing, the proofs of Baha'u'llah, and if He has Mirracles.
Firstly, we should remind ourselves that a saparate thread should be used for questions regarding Baha'i Faith.

No we were discussing prophecie which I was researching and finding uncompelling one by one but you just kept posting so I dropped it and addressed your Bahá'u'lláh is God issue which led to miracles.

Therefore as I mentioned before, I am not saying that the Messengers are powerless to do Miracles, maybe they even did. I told you even many Baha'is living at the time of Baha'u'llah and the Bab witnessed these Miracles.

Well he did so many miracles I could not find a claim of even 1. If you type miracles in a search box you get hundeds of hits on the bible and Jesus but I didn't see any for Baha'i. I did finally find a site that addressed Bah'i and miracles. It spent most of it's time claiming that just because a guy claims to have supernatural power his demostration of that power is meaningless. It also went on to claim some miracles for Bahá'u'lláh which were strange and not actual miracles. The more I learn about Baha'i the less I consider it reliable. It makes almost all of the mistakes usually mentioned of false religions. I am not trying to suggest what you should do but for me Baha'i looks less and less legitamate. There is no comparison between Bahá'u'lláh being said to make his prison a nice place (whatever in the world that means) and Jesus walking on water, casting out demons, and raising people from literal physical death. That is why his miracles must be missinterpreted for Baha'i to seem compatable.

But, even as jesus asked, the reason they should believe in Him, is not because of Miracles, but becaues of the spiritual food, or heavenly bread that He gave. So, the point still holds, regrdless if Jesus or Baha'u'llah did any miracles or not.
So, if one believes in Miracles of Jesus, how come he should not believe in miracles of Baha'u'llah? The fact is Miracles could only be a proof to those who witness.

This simply not biblical. You seem jam up all sorts of contradictory points that make sence in their original context but not when they are stripped of it and jammed together and then you make some sweeping claim about this jammed up mess. Jesus says in some places that miracles would not be given because those particular hard hearted people would just ask for more. In other places he suggests miracles should be taken as proof. They make sence in their respective context but not when distorted. If fact even the people who Jesus said he would not accept miracles he still said he would do one. The greatest one and rise from the dead.

Now, if you say with this particular story of fish and bread, there has been witnesses who saw jesus feeding them, to me witnesses can be only acceptable, if either they are alive to come and testify that they saw, or at least there are written letters from them with their signitures. Moreover, these witnesses, could have been tricked, or they could have been the party of a false prophet.
So, In my openion it is totally vein and pointless, and useless to discuss about miracles and to use them as reference to discuss with others.
Offcourse you are free to believe in whatever you want, but to use them as document and prove is just not acceptable. I hope you realize that.

You do not make arbitrary standards for what is evidence or not. In fact if you want to know what the worlds legal experts, scientists, and philosophers say about the legal status of evidence in the bible then here is another site you probably won't vist: Evidence That Demands a Verdict - Ch. 10 p. 2
It contains many things like this: Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901), English scholar who was appointed regius professor at Cambridge in 1870, said: "Indeed, taking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. Nothing but the antecedent assumption that it must be false could have suggested the idea of deficiency in the proof of if."
Which exactly what you are doing.
Bolding mine.

But the ones that you are particularly saying, in our view is to be interpreted symbolically.

I have shown that is impossible or at the very least an infinately less likey interpretation which is why only Bah'i makes these claims.

As I said, it is almost always possible to interprete a verse literally, as I showed you regarding "Let dead bury their dead".

As I showed a literal interpretation of that verse is impossible. Do you ever read my responses or are you on auto pilot.

In fact, i believe, those who interpreted the Bible in a literal way, and thought they are miracles, they only used their vein imagination to match with bible.

That didn't make any sense. There is no imagination involved in turning two fish and five loaves into enough for five thousand to eat.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You compared Bahá'u'lláh with moses Christ and Muhammad. You also said he claimed to be God as well as the second coming of Christ. He is apparently the camelion prophet. I didn't mention Muhammad but Bahá'u'lláh is in no wared comparable to Moses or Christ. As they did massive amounts of miracles among many other things. I have looked and have found no reference to any Bahá'u'lláh miracles. Even muhammad is pretty low on the miracle issue. Since I guess if a prophet can't rise to the level of another then the other must be brought down to the first. IMO that is why your faith has adopted the position that Jesus miracles were not physical miracles after all, even though that is not what 99% of Chrsitains and scholars think and what the text allows for. If 99% of scientists say smoking is bad and you claim it isn't without vast amounts of proof and impune the scientists, it just looks silly.

Again you are using Miracles as a way to compare Messengers.
I have to disagree with you. Firstly, there is NO historical evidence accepted that actually those Messengers did Miracles.
There is only a reference in the Bible Books. Those references are subject to interpretations. As I showed you, those verses can be symbolic. You are free to interprete them the way you like. But in our view they are symbolic. Thus, your way of comparison of Messengers is not Biblical. Can you show a verse in Bible which says, the way to recognize True Messengers, is by comparing their Miracles?
If not, then, you should realize this is your own way, "A Manmaid way", but not according to Bible.

- Peace

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In other places he suggests miracles should be taken as proof.

What does this mean to you:

John 6:26-7: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In other places he suggests miracles should be taken as proof.

Which places?
What does this mean to you:

John 6:26-7: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."​

 

[1robin]

But the point is the meaning of opening "the seal". And the seven seals become open one by one, after the appearance of the Angels one by one.

Jesus said "the son of man is in heaven" when at that time He was on earth. So, my point still holds, as the even is on the earth.

I have no idea what this means.

The Book that is sealed, is the same Book that danial was talking about. It was supposed to be unsealed at time of the Endacoording to Danial.

No it is not.

The same signs of the End is given in revelation, with regards to the events of unsealing the Book. The signs of the End are given:


"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind."

Since this has not happened yet you have disproven your own case.

Since you will not stop posting long enough for us to actually get to the bottom of anything and that may be the intention. I am not going to give a detailed response to the feeding of the five thousand. I do not think it would matter. I will give instead one verse and it's explenation that reners your whole position impossible. You said that Jesus in later verses says what he actually meant when he was talking about feeding the five thousand. Those verses are John 6:26-27:

New International Version (©1984)
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.
New International Version (©1984)
Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

Now before I address these verses please pat attention to what has hppened up until this point.
1. Jesus was followed or approached by many people when he was sitting with his desciples.
2. The question came up as to how to feed all these people.
3. Jesus used this as a teaching opportunity.
4. He asked Phillip what to do.
5. The reason he asked Phillip is because Phillip was from a nearby town and so it was a good test for him. He wanted to see if Phillip would suggest going to the town to buy bread or have faith that Jesus could make due with a supernatural miracle.
6. That whole event only makes sense if we are dicussing real food. The involvment of Phillip in particular because he would have the greatest reason to offer a natural solution because he lived close by. None of this makes any sense if we are discussing spritual food.
7. They also mention several details about what the food was composed of specifically and how much was left over after they ate. This makes perfect sense in a physical understanding and is just confusing and silly for a spiritual one.
8. In one verse it specifically lists the the men in a seperate category from women and children. This once again makes perfect sense in a literal understanding. Men in Israel literally ate literal food seperate from women and children. So why list a specific literal tradition that has no symbolic meaning.
9. These verses we are discussing take place at a completely seperate event. I believe it was the next day and at a different location near the sea of Galilee but that is not important.
10. Many of these same people he had literally fed the previous day followed him and then he says those verses: Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval. John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval." Now my and virtually every commentators understanding as well as the plain reading of these verses means this.
11. To these same people he says were only following him because he gave them food to eat. This is a strange thing indeed to say if it was sybolic food (Spritual healing) that he gave them. But it makes perfect sense if it was literal food. He also says he will give them not that he has given them this siritual bread.
12. Especially since he contrasts this (spiritual bread) food with what he says is much more important and completely different from what he gave them before (literal bread).
13. He was not clarifying what he did before he was clarifying which kind of bread is more valuable.
14. There is no way two things that are contrasted are equal. One is literal and one is spiritual.

I do not know what could be more obvious. If I was being generous and said your position has a one percent chance of being true in every case then the fact you always adopt the 1% position and ignore the 99% conclusion that is backed up by coutless proofs, scholars, and commentators tells me that what is driving you is not a desire for truth but a preconcieved commitment to an ideology. If you know statistical probabilty then you know that the chances of your position being right in total is 1% x 1% n times where n = the total number of claims. Of course the percentage is a guess but according to my 20 plus years of almost obsessive research a generous one. If logic like what is above has no effect on your claims I do not know what I or any one could provide that would. It is as plain as plain gets. I cannot justify spending large amounts of time in a futile discussion so I will determine by your response whether this is one or not.

 

[1robin]

Which places?
What does this mean to you:

John 6:26-7: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."​

I have already covered this in detail above and it is obvious what it means. That sipritual bread as contrasted with the literal bread he gave them earlier is much more important (infinately so).