karma

[The Sum of Awe]

Those that believe in karma, please read this.

A lot of people refer to karma as cause and effect. But I don't understand. In classical sense (e.g. My Name is Earl) is often portrayed as doing good things will bring good things, and doing bad things will bring you bad things. Is that correct to any degree?

If yes, why is it that occasionally something bad happens the a good man? Vice versa.
If no, what is its basis?

When I think about karma, I imagine it like this: Every action brings consequences. Such as, if you were to fight someone, it may impact your life eventually, perhaps a revenge.

The future is built by the past: So doing A (action) will have results, and those results are thus part of this future as it is being constructed.

Is that right?

But then where does morality come into play here? (if it does at all). If someone is doing something that might be considered negative (relative to their culture, of course), this may further down the road not effect them, but instead brings relatively positive things.

If that's so, why do a lot of people seem to seek for "good karma?"


If you wouldn't mind, could you give examples of karma?

 

[Bunyip]

Karma is not limited to your own life and experiences, in societies that believe in karma one may walk down the street and see (for example) a poor disabled child begging. That they were born disabled and poor is their karma. The western interpretation tends to reduce to a kind of personal cause and effect, but the traditional interpretation is far more broad.

 

[Chakra]

Sri Vaishnavas have talked a lot about this. I will post on what I have heard from authorities.

Those that believe in karma, please read this.

A lot of people refer to karma as cause and effect. But I don't understand. In classical sense (e.g. My Name is Earl) is often portrayed as doing good things will bring good things, and doing bad things will bring you bad things. Is that correct to any degree?

Not actually. There is this a misconception that by going good things you get good karma and doing bad things gets you bad karma. Let me explain.
Everyone who is in this samsara has karma. Our karma is anadi, eternal, not started by anyone. We have been whirling in samsara from time immemorial. This karma is why we cannot attain Sri Vaikuntha. Because of our karma, we are forced to take birth. Please note that your karma only affects your birth. It does not determine your present actions. If it did, that would mean predestination, which is illogical.

Now, your karma is like a bank account. It has both Papam (bad karma) and Punyam (good karma). Now, in this life, just because you have more Papam than Punyams in your "bank account" does not mean you will live a bad life. It's not so. Basically, here's how it works. If you do a good thing, your bank account of Punyams goes down. If you do a bad thing, your bank account of Papams goes down. Life is full of pain and happiness. You must go through them all. The very nature of this material world is like that. There is no need for you to have done a bad deed in the past for you to suffer right now. I hope this was easy to understand. If not, let me know.

Every effect must have a cause, but not every effect has a specific cause. There are general causes for most of the things we do. Take the example of a plane crash. A hundred people died. Was it because they all did the same bad deed when they were 5? No. What happened was there was a general cause (let's say, they all bought tickets to the same plane) and that plane happened to crash. Karma did not play a role on whether or not the plane crashed or not.

If yes, why is it that occasionally something bad happens the a good man? Vice versa.
If no, what is its basis?

Like I explained before, the nature of this world is that good things and bad things will happen to everyone. You cannot avoid them. Basis is the "bank account" explanation I gave you.

The future is built by the past: So doing A (action) will have results, and those results are thus part of this future as it is being constructed.

Is that right?

Like I said, every effect does have a cause, but not all are specific causes. Maybe you kill someone and his son kills you. That's a specific cause.

But then where does morality come into play here? (if it does at all). If someone is doing something that might be considered negative (relative to their culture, of course), this may further down the road not effect them, but instead brings relatively positive things.

If that's so, why do a lot of people seem to seek for "good karma?"


If you wouldn't mind, could you give examples of karma?

Basically, the goal is not to keep doing good karma. The goal is to get rid of karma altogether and thus attain salvation. The reason why you should keep doing good karma is because it lessens the effect of the Papams (bad karmas), or so I've heard.

I don't think I made a mistake in this explanation but if I have, let me know.

 

[Vinayaka]

Karma is not a thing that you get, create, etc. It is a law, like gravity. When people use the term karma, they're talking about the effects of action because of the principle of karma. So 'my karma' is reallythe effects of my previous actions.

 

[Quintessence]

It's worth noting that "karma" means quite different things. In particular, it means something quite different in the Eastern religions where it originated compared to the Western (mis)appropriation of the term. Which is being discussed here?

 

[Bunyip]

It's worth noting that "karma" means quite different things. In particular, it means something quite different in the Eastern religions where it originated compared to the Western (mis)appropriation of the term. Which is being discussed here?

I agree with you, I think they are so different as to be practically incompatible.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Thank you all, that did clear up the clouds

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

"The Sum of Awe, post: 4180508, member: 27592"]

Namaste,

There are probably some good answers already, so i will try not to repeat but put my perspective on this.

A lot of people refer to karma as cause and effect. But I don't understand. In classical sense (e.g. My Name is Earl) is often portrayed as doing good things will bring good things, and doing bad things will bring you bad things. Is that correct to any degree?

This is a western version of Karma, and it fails as a explanation for life circumstance because in common experience we can do good but receive bad or get neutral effects. The original idea i think is more akin to action and reaction or cause and effect in the universal sense, but Karma theory is tied in with other concepts such as Samsara (rebirth cycle), Atman, Shareera (body& mind) also Dharmah which is the context of life. All these have to be properly understood in relation to Karma, as these are not absolute separate concepts in themselves.

When I think about karma, I imagine it like this: Every action brings consequences. Such as, if you were to fight someone, it may impact your life eventually, perhaps a revenge.

The future is built by the past: So doing A (action) will have results, and those results are thus part of this future as it is being constructed.

Is that right?

Yes i would agree in context to life at present, and Karma done in this life may give fruit in this life but may also give fruit in the next, the idea is to not be attached to the fruits as these are out of our control.

But then where does morality come into play here? (if it does at all). If someone is doing something that might be considered negative (relative to their culture, of course), this may further down the road not effect them, but instead brings relatively positive things.

If that's so, why do a lot of people seem to seek for "good karma?"

This is because we think of Karma in the western sense, which is divorced from the idea of Samsara, Atman ect. Adharmic Karma surely has negative ripples in time and space, and as the Atman moves among the different bodies in time and space at some time and in some space the waves will hit.

And we are thinking about the fruits of Karma, which is not in our control, a person may be living out past punya, but his present actions are papam and the fruits will be eaten either in this life or in the next.

As a Hindu i try not to seek "Good Karma", but i try to be Dharmic or try to uphold Dharmah and oppose Adharmah, by knowing that my actions have consequences, and by understanding that my situation in life is the fruit of my past Karma i seek enjoyment and happiness keeping this in mind, and by following our Parmo Dharmah which is Ahimsa i try to ensure no harm comes to me or anyone else. That is all we can do, this is our only right.

If you wouldn't mind, could you give examples of karma?

Breathing

 

[Vishvavajra]

The word karma is one of those tricky terms that is used in various traditions of Indian origin, often with significantly different meanings, from one to another. In the Buddhist view, the doctrine of karma follows from the doctrine of dependent origination, which is the understanding that all phenomena arise in accordance with causes and conditions in a regular (i.e. non-random) way. That regularity means that, complex as they are, causal relationships are at least somewhat predictable. We take this for granted in our daily lives when we make choices based on anticipated outcomes.

The Buddhist view of karma is mostly concerned with the predictable effects of intentional action, which creates and reinforces mental habits that then proceed to color future perceptions and actions. Karma is not inherently "bad" or "good," but from our perspective some consequences are necessarily preferable to others, so we should strive to create good habits and avoid bad ones. That does not mean that every positive action will have favorable consequences and every negative action have unfavorable ones, but things are regular enough that we can identify habits that result in favorable and unfavorable consequences, generally speaking. In this way we can make informed decisions about how to act, in the knowledge that actions in the present will help to determine the state of things in the future, just as the state of things in the present results from actions in the past.

Ultimately there is nothing supernatural about the Buddhist view of karma--no divine being whose job it is to mete out rewards and punishments. It's an impersonal function of the regularity of nature and causality. It has ethical implications insofar as Buddhist ethics is largely pragmatic and consequentialist, based on the Buddhist understanding of phenomenology.

It's also worth noting that karma in the Buddhist view doesn't strictly belong to anyone in particular. We may speak conventionally of "my" karma or "your" karma, but in the end there is just karma. We do not produce karma so much as it produces us. Causal relationships stretch back long before our individual lifetimes, and they will continue long after. In that sense it is transpersonal while also linking individual lifetimes together, as well as moments within a single lifetime, and we all participate in these relationships.

Buddhist practitioners are encouraged to regard their present obstacles and vexations as the consequences of karma, which is strictly true insofar as karma encompasses even the mental habits that inform our perceptions of reality. But this comes with a very serious caveat: One should never dismiss the suffering of another as just the result of their karma, as that quickly leads to victim-blaming, whereas the true practitioner should cultivate perfect compassion for all sentient beings. The difference between self and other is not ultimately real, so the suffering of others is not ultimately different from our own suffering, and "their" karma is not ultimately different from "ours." Nobody deserves unhappiness; it's an illness from which we all suffer.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Wind on your face. Rain. Jumping in puddles. Get wet. Kicking the dog. Dog bites you. Bite the dog. Dog gives you rabies. Foam at the mouth. Bugs. Spiders and flies. Muddy dirt. Flash flood. Mudslide. Curse like a sailor.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Interesting...karma?

Grandson of pilot of plane that dropped atomic bomb on Hiroshima to head B-2 wing in Missouri

Grandson of pilot of plane that dropped atomic bomb on Hiroshima to head B-2 wing in Missouri

KANSAS CITY, Missouri — A grandson and namesake of the man who piloted the massive B-29 that dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, Japan, during World War II is taking over leadership of the United States' aging fleet of nuclear-capable B-2 stealth bombers.

Brig. Gen. Paul W. Tibbets IV takes command of the 509th Bomb Wing during a ceremony Friday at Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri, replacing Brig. Gen. Glen VanHerck, who has led the wing since February 2014.

Tibbets' grandfather, Paul W. Tibbets Jr., was assigned to a predecessor of the 509th Bomb Wing when he piloted the Enola Gay in the world's first atomic bomb mission on Aug. 6, 1945. The bomb destroyed much of Hiroshima and killed tens of thousands of its citizens. Paul W. Tibbets Jr. died in 2007.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Those that believe in karma, please read this.

A lot of people refer to karma as cause and effect. But I don't understand. In classical sense (e.g. My Name is Earl) is often portrayed as doing good things will bring good things, and doing bad things will bring you bad things. Is that correct to any degree?

If yes, why is it that occasionally something bad happens the a good man? Vice versa.
If no, what is its basis?

When I think about karma, I imagine it like this: Every action brings consequences. Such as, if you were to fight someone, it may impact your life eventually, perhaps a revenge.

The future is built by the past: So doing A (action) will have results, and those results are thus part of this future as it is being constructed.

Is that right?

But then where does morality come into play here? (if it does at all). If someone is doing something that might be considered negative (relative to their culture, of course), this may further down the road not effect them, but instead brings relatively positive things.

If that's so, why do a lot of people seem to seek for "good karma?"


If you wouldn't mind, could you give examples of karma?

I believe and see karma as another word that describes cause and effect. It means that whatever I do on this end has a ripple affect and will affect you in some way on the other. According to the Buddha, when we create bad karma (say lie) that has a ripple affect for all people not just the two parties involved. Interconnection and balance between one cause and another and knowing this, because of this, things always change. Nothing is stable.

Example. If I do a charitable action, say give money to the poor, that poor person may use my good karma (good as it helps others) for bad (such as, sorry for stereotype, buying a beer) for himself or a minor. That minor is an "good" person but he gets fined still for being a minor with an acoholic beverage (in the states/VA). Its not about the bad person. Its about who startes the karma affect. Since the ripples are too far out, no one knows.

Rarely, I hear "why do good things happen to bad people." There should be a balance. That each persons karma is an affect of someone eles good And bad. Take away the duality, its just karma. Nothing more.

Where is the morality? Why seek good karma?

Everyone is different and have different namez for it. I see it as buidling good karma lessons the affects of possible bad karma. So, best I can do is make good karma and know there is a balance that my action may bring something bad. Also, I remember that each of us are responsible for our actions. So, if someone takes advantage of my action, the morality is that I did something good "and" I didnt ask for or expect anything from the person (i should careless what he uses the money for).

The morality lies in taking away duality. Good/bad, cause/affect and so on and see them as interconnected. That, I feel, frees oneself of expectations, stereotyping oneself ans others, and so forth. Its a goal to bring better karma hence more possibilities for good ripples without expecting to be some.

Hope that makes sense 2:13 in the morning?

 

[aoji]

There are general causes for most of the things we do. Take the example of a plane crash. A hundred people died. Was it because they all did the same bad deed when they were 5? No. What happened was there was a general cause (let's say, they all bought tickets to the same plane) and that plane happened to crash. Karma did not play a role on whether or not the plane crashed or not.

I believe Nisargadatta Maharaj would likely say that collectively their Karmas caused the accident. We would have to say that collectively the part(s) that failed, that caused the accident, was due to the person who made it, serviced or maintained it, or lack thereof, caused a potentiality for a karmic event to manifest when the potentialities (i.e., weather) presented itself greatest.

The problem with Karma is that we can never know why something happens to us. The mind always wants answers.

And we are thinking about the fruits of Karma, which is not in our control.

I often wonder whether or not we can have control. For example, in the aforementioned airplane crash, should someone listen to a dream, or listen to a feeling, or intuition, and thereby decide not to get on the plane and therefore not die? No matter how far one wants to go down the Rabbit Hole (was he destined not to get on? If he was destined to get on but didn't, is his Karma delayed?, or was his decision not to get on a result of some good karma (in which case why was the possibility even a probability?), ultimately it must foster a sense of helplessness, which usually manifests as an acceptance of one's Fate or Destiny. And by the time one realizes it it is too late (although it probably is realized at death) since much negative karma will have been created in one's formative, young and middle years. One therefore is doomed to repeat it over and over again until one becomes Enlightened. Is the delayed recognition also a result of one's past Karmas? Can one decide to be born during an auspicious time? Or is one born during an auspicious time because of one's karma? Or is it mere chance?

Time travel and the single atom | Cosmos Magazine

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

"aoji, post: 4339130, member: 56443"]

Namaste,

Sorry for the late reply, i cant remember getting a alert on this. My apologies friend.

I often wonder whether or not we can have control. For example, in the aforementioned airplane crash, should someone listen to a dream, or listen to a feeling, or intuition, and thereby decide not to get on the plane and therefore not die? No matter how far one wants to go down the Rabbit Hole (was he destined not to get on? If he was destined to get on but didn't, is his Karma delayed?, or was his decision not to get on a result of some good karma (in which case why was the possibility even a probability?), ultimately it must foster a sense of helplessness, which usually manifests as an acceptance of one's Fate or Destiny. And by the time one realizes it it is too late (although it probably is realized at death) since much negative karma will have been created in one's formative, young and middle years. One therefore is doomed to repeat it over and over again until one becomes Enlightened. Is the delayed recognition also a result of one's past Karmas? Can one decide to be born during an auspicious time? Or is one born during an auspicious time because of one's karma? Or is it mere chance?

Well its all chance, From a Hindu perspective (mine), we can act, or not, we can breath, or not breath, but the results are with the Cosmos/Universe/Time, There is no certainty of what will occur in the next moment, there are probabilities and chances but no certainty. With the Karma theory of Hinduism there is no thing as fate or destiny in the way we understand these words. IMO we make our own fate, and we can work (Karma) towards our own destiny, weather we achieve it or not depends on our Karma but the results is not in our control. Its not helplessness it is "Self Help", that is fostered with Karma, because it is accepting that ones Fate or Destiny is ones own doing and achievable by our own actions.

The advise in the Gita is that "the self alone is ones friend, and the self alone is also ones enemy", there is no blame game, there is only standing up and taking responsibility either you DO or your DON'T.

 

[mystic64]

It would be interesting to get the conservative Hindu Brahman tradition's take on what karma means. And what about the gods and goddesses and the God of Abraham God that a lot of folks worship? They can effect karma/be a source of karma (cause and effect), any kind of karma, should they choose to. I do realize that there are a lot of folks that do not believe in there being higher beings that can assist one (or not assist one for that matter ) but a lot of folks do and they do get results. Karma is the cause and effect energy/action envirionment that we all live in and these causes range all of the way from the things that we do as individuals and as groups, in this life time and in other life times, to the automated things that the forces of nature/Creation do. And if a higher being decides to get involved, that is also karma. As an example: Everytime that I have involked Lord Shiva, everything changed. He just tore everything apart (which was scary) and put it back together better. Karma just went from one thing to something else. And I do not worship Lord Shiva, we are just friends. These higher beings also (based on my experience) have to be included as a part of the definition of Karma (cause and effect). I know that there are a lot of you guys that are going to say that this is not real, but it is real to a lot of other folks and they do get results. And those results are also a part of the karma/cause and effect that we have to deal with as living beings.

We are in Theological Concepts, I think that it is allowed to mention higher beings? I hope so

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

"mystic64, post: 4349295, member: 47630"]

Namaste,

It would be interesting to get the conservative Hindu Brahman tradition's take on what karma means.

Yes, That would be interesting.

And what about the gods and goddesses and the God of Abraham God that a lot of folks worship? They can effect karma/be a source of karma (cause and effect), any kind of karma, should they choose to. I do realize that there are a lot of folks that do not believe in there being higher beings that can assist one (or not assist one for that matter ) but a lot of folks do and they do get results.

I think that believing in a higher being or in case of some Hindus higher states of being, does influence our Karma, as our actions are determined by the environment around us, by our mental state, beliefs, prejudices, cultures and by our physical ability ect all of which can affect our Karm (and in turn are already effected by Karma) and the decisions we make in particular situations resulting in influencing the Phala of our Karm.

[QUOTE]Karma is the cause and effect energy/action envirionment that we all live in and these causes range all of the way from the things that we do as individuals and as groups, in this life time and in other life times, to the automated things that the forces of nature/Creation do. And if a higher being decides to get involved, that is also karma. As an example: Everytime that I have involked Lord Shiva, everything changed. He just tore everything apart (which was scary) and put it back together better. Karma just went from one thing to something else. And I do not worship Lord Shiva, we are just friends.[/QUOTE]

Yes Karma in context.

I think if Shiva gets involved he himself would create his own Karma, which is fine, i don't think Shiva would break his own Law (of Karma).

To me Shiva Ji, is transformation and transformation is at the feet of Kali Mata (time), you could say that i believe in higher beings in this way.

These higher beings also (based on my experience) have to be included as a part of the definition of Karma (cause and effect). I know that there are a lot of you guys that are going to say that this is not real, but it is real to a lot of other folks and they do get results. And those results are also a part of the karma/cause and effect that we have to deal with as living beings.

From my Hindu perspective, they are included.

We are in Theological Concepts, I think that it is allowed to mention higher beings? I hope so

Yeh why not, but may i clarify i personally don't believe in things like G_D or God or Gods. Thy cause too much trouble.

Dhanyavad.

 

[spiritualhitchhiker]

I think if Shiva gets involved he himself would create his own Karma, which is fine, i don't think Shiva would break his own Law (of Karma).

Both Shiva and Vishnu are beyond Karma but they out of their own volition appear to submit to the effects of Karma, to set an example to others.

 

[mystic64]

Namaste,



Yes, That would be interesting.



I think that believing in a higher being or in case of some Hindus higher states of being, does influence our Karma, as our actions are determined by the environment around us, by our mental state, beliefs, prejudices, cultures and by our physical ability ect all of which can affect our Karm (and in turn are already effected by Karma) and the decisions we make in particular situations resulting in influencing the Phala of our Karm.

[QUOTE]Karma is the cause and effect energy/action envirionment that we all live in and these causes range all of the way from the things that we do as individuals and as groups, in this life time and in other life times, to the automated things that the forces of nature/Creation do. And if a higher being decides to get involved, that is also karma. As an example: Everytime that I have involked Lord Shiva, everything changed. He just tore everything apart (which was scary) and put it back together better. Karma just went from one thing to something else. And I do not worship Lord Shiva, we are just friends.

Yes Karma in context.

I think if Shiva gets involved he himself would create his own Karma, which is fine, i don't think Shiva would break his own Law (of Karma).

To me Shiva Ji, is transformation and transformation is at the feet of Kali Mata (time), you could say that i believe in higher beings in this way.



From my Hindu perspective, they are included.



Yeh why not, but may i clarify i personally don't believe in things like G_D or God or Gods. Thy cause too much trouble.

Dhanyavad.[/QUOTE]

"They cause too much trouble ( )" I agree and that is why Buddha said no to the worship of gods. They are "a part" of the reason that we are all in a state of ignorance which causes us to create suffering in our lives and the lives of others. Also they can be a crutch. I was the father of Yogananda's Kriya Yoga tradition in my last lifetime so I do have a strong affinity to Hinduism and the reason that I am a yogi in this lifetime. In this life I am a Christian and have been since I was five years old, as well as being a yogi and having an affinity to Hinduism. Dhanyavad, I understand your tradition and I do not have any problem with it. If I was to have a problem my problem would be with the conservative Brahmans and probably the Raja Yoga folks. But the truth is that it is all karma and things will solve themselves eventually . And I reincarnated in the US to be unhampered by thousands of years old traditions.

"Shiva wouldn't break his own Law (of karma)." To me Lord Shiva is an expample of what a self realized yogi can become should they choose to. He carries "a lot" of power, but at the sametime he also carries "a lot" of love and he is really fun to be around. He always makes me laugh and feel happy. I do not think that he would break his own law of karma either, but I also do think that his law of karma is by his own choice. In order to live/exist in this world one has to be surrounded by karma (otherwise you are not in this world anymore and you exist somewhere else). Lord Shiva creates his own karmic environment, he is not effected by the forces of the normal karma that we have to deal with. And because he has the ability to create his own karmic environment he also has the ability to recreate ours, should he choose to . So because he is my yogi teacher I guess that is what I am studing how to do also. Through Lord Jesus you can go to a more user friendy karmic reality and through Lord Shiva you can learn how to create your own karmic reality, if he will work with you. I guess eventually I may end up being a self realized Christian and then just skip Heaven and go on to next level where Lord Shiva and the Father of Jesus play together.

Namaste, you are loved!

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

="mystic64, post: 4351025, member: 47630"]

Namaste,

Thanks for the reply, some questions come up in your reply, ill dare to ask.

I was the father of Yogananda's Kriya Yoga tradition in my last lifetime so I do have a strong affinity to Hinduism and the reason that I am a yogi in this lifetime.

How do you know your past life? and so specifically?

....... If I was to have a problem my problem would be with the conservative Brahmans and probably the Raja Yoga folks.

May i ask Why?

But the truth is that it is all karma and things will solve themselves eventually . And I reincarnated in the US to be unhampered by thousands of years old traditions.

This comment strikes me a bit odd, you associate your self with Christianity which is a 2000 year old tradition, and you say your a Yogi which is far much a older tradition, yet you seem to think that tradition hampers you? its confusing?

Through Lord Jesus you can go to a more user friendy karmic reality and through Lord Shiva you can learn how to create your own karmic reality, if he will work with you. I guess eventually I may end up being a self realized Christian and then just skip Heaven and go on to next level where Lord Shiva and the Father of Jesus play together.

What do you mean by the above in Bold?

Namaste, you are loved!

Dhanyavad

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Both Shiva and Vishnu are beyond Karma but they out of their own volition appear to submit to the effects of Karma, to set an example to others.

Namaste,

IMO, not beyond karma, but more not attached to the fruits of Karma, or performing NishKama Karma, because the vary act (karm) of setting a example is Karma.

Dhnayavad.