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Justification by being Christian?

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
(from a Christian perspective)

Is faith a type of obedience to the demands of God?

Is it about becoming the type of person God would like you to be?

i.e. a Christian?

If this is the case then surely "justification by faith alone" means "justification by being a practicing Christian alone"?

Being Christian (faith) = believing in Christianity (belief) + practicing Christianity (acts)

 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
(from a Christian perspective)

Is faith a type of obedience to the demands of God?

Is it about becoming the type of person God would like you to be?

i.e. a Christian?

If this is the case then surely "justification by faith alone" means "justification by being a practicing Christian alone"?

Faith isn't a type of obedience to the demands of God. Faith is a gift from God. Faith gives substance to the things hoped for and brings into evidence things that are not seen. God invites.

It isn't about what God would "like us to be" but rather helping understand "who we are".

i.e. "Christ-like"

So justification is a gift as Jesus was made unto us wisdom, righteousness and justification... just-as-if-ied never sinned.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
(from a Christian perspective)

Is faith a type of obedience to the demands of God?

Is it about becoming the type of person God would like you to be?

i.e. a Christian?

If this is the case then surely "justification by faith alone" means "justification by being a practicing Christian alone"?

Being Christian (faith) = believing in Christianity (belief) + practicing Christianity (acts)


Believing in Jesus and following Jesus, being a disciple of Jesus, allowing Jesus to be your Lord. Doing good works, avoiding evil works.
People say prayer, reading the Bible and fellowshipping with other Christians are good things and helpful also for drawing closer to God.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Faith isn't a type of obedience to the demands of God. Faith is a gift from God. Faith gives substance to the things hoped for and brings into evidence things that are not seen. God invites.

It isn't about what God would "like us to be" but rather helping understand "who we are".

i.e. "Christ-like"

So justification is a gift as Jesus was made unto us wisdom, righteousness and justification... just-as-if-ied never sinned.
Here I have to disagree with you because why would God withhold the possibility of having faith in Him to anyone?

To me, where I believe the "gift" comes in is when a person "hears" the Word and considers looking into it and then continuing on with it. This is basically his message to Thomas after the latter realizes that Jesus actually did rise from the dead, thus to live his life in Christ accordingly.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Here I have to disagree with you because why would God withhold the possibility of having faith in Him to anyone?

To me, where I believe the "gift" comes in is when a person "hears" the Word and considers looking into it and then continuing on with it. This is basically his message to Thomas after the latter realizes that Jesus actually did rise from the dead, thus to live his life in Christ accordingly.
I think it is more of an interpretation. Why would one think that the gift of faith is for only a select few? No... I think everyone has the gift.

What happens is when you hear the Word, it activates and increases the faith's capacity. IMV, God is the author and the finisher of our faith and it is in everyone

Like muscles... we all have them but when you exercise it grows.

Apologies if I made it sound that it is only for a few.
 
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Bathos Logos

Active Member
[just-as-if-ied] never sinned.
What on Earth is this? An attempt to incorporate "justified" with the phrase "Just as if I'd..."? This just doesn't work on so many levels. "I'd" obviously being a contraction of "I" and "had" - the apostrophe being entirely relevant, yet missing from your butchery above. And the word "justified" itself not containing the word "as" nor even a letter "a".

Is this one of those things that people think is clever toward the goal of making a brand stand out or be memorable? Like misspelling the word "light" as "lite" or something? "Try new Just-as-if-ied patented Sin Remover! Only $13.95!"
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Faith isn't a type of obedience to the demands of God. Faith is a gift from God. Faith gives substance to the things hoped for and brings into evidence things that are not seen. God invites.
So you have faith in God to justify belief in God, then faith is a gift from the God you justify via faith?

That's circular. But it illustrates how theists think, and how anything can be justified as believable even when it's not reasonable.

It isn't about what God would "like us to be" but rather helping understand "who we are".

i.e. "Christ-like"

So justification is a gift as Jesus was made unto us wisdom, righteousness and justification... just-as-if-ied never sinned.
This sounds like trying to mimic an ideal and not actually being moral, decent, compassionate, etc. Many very conservative Christians have attitudes that are in political alignment to the GOP, but far from what Jesus taught, which is arguably more of what Democrats have as their platforms. So we see many of these Christians struggle to align to the GOP and still make an argument that they are "Christ-like". I suggest they are anti-Christ.

I'll give an example of what a real Christian is to my mind and experience. In high school my grandmother asked me to volunteer at her church's food kitchen. They fed poor people three days a week, it was all they could afford. I had no idea there were poor people in the world, and they needed help. These folks were grateful, and everyone in her church did this duty to their fellow citizens. There was no forced prayer. There was no talk of Christianity. You wouldn't know this was a church. This was good people doing good deeds for this in need. There was no ulterior motive.

Then I encountered far right Christians in my family who were more self-absorbed. They went to Bible study, but never once did I see them do service for others. They were sure of their salvation. They were very right wing, voted for Trump, watch FOX news, and had contempt for liberals.

To observe both types of Christian in my family informed my understanding a great deal. There is a distinct difference between authentic Christians who do quiet service to those who are arrogant and confident, yet do little to live in a way that reflects what Jesus taught. The anti-Christ is a fraud. The authentic Christian is easy to spot. I suspect the frauds know they are frauds and work harder to justify their faith, their devotion to dogma and whatever "truth" their mind is attracted to and their sect of Christianity validates.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
What on Earth is this? An attempt to incorporate "justified" with the phrase "Just as if I'd..."? This just doesn't work on so many levels. "I'd" obviously being a contraction of "I" and "had" - the apostrophe being entirely relevant, yet missing from your butchery above. And the word "justified" itself not containing the word "as" nor even a letter "a".

Is this one of those things that people think is clever toward the goal of making a brand stand out or be memorable? Like misspelling the word "light" as "lite" or something? "Try new Just-as-if-ied patented Sin Remover! Only $13.95!"
It just helps understand what it means.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I think it is more of an interpretation. Why would one think that the gift of faith is for only a select few? No... I think everyone has the gift.
Why is faith even valuable at all? It's more a liability than a gift. Faith is notoriously unreliable and can be justified by the worst kind of human thinking we have. It doesn't lead to truth, just to belief. And as we know there is no certainly in belief, and beliefs can be dead wrong.

What happens is when you hear the Word, it activates and increases the faith's capacity.
On ly if a person has been indoctrinated to make these assumptions. It does not work on this who think objectively and ask sober questions.

IMV, God is the author and the finisher of our faith and it is in everyone
And you have this view because you accepted what other theists said was true. There are serious doubts about all of this. You ignore the doubt through the "gift of faith", which as I stated is a liability. You offer yourself no way out of the trap of Christian dogma.

Like muscles... we all have them but when you exercise it grown.
Atheism is the analogy of strength as it is the result of exercising reason and the self's worth above religious dogma. Belief/faith is more stagnant and like rigor mortis as it is more extreme. It exercises less and less of what the human mind is capable of.

Apologies if I made it sound that it is only for a few.
Well this approach only appeals to the few for reason, and that's because it doesn't work.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
So you have faith in God to justify belief in God, then faith is a gift from the God you justify via faith?

That's circular. But it illustrates how theists think, and how anything can be justified as believable even when it's not reasonable.

I can't find logic here... almost trying to force a circular post in a square peg

You will have to rephrase that a little better for me to understand what you are trying to say. (Or maybe what I was trying to say wasn't clear - it can go both ways) :)

The rest of your post (politics/how christians act like) - not relevant and a side trip. Maybe a different thread to start?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
.
Why is faith even valuable at all? It's more a liability than a gift. Faith is notoriously unreliable and can be justified by the worst kind of human thinking we have. It doesn't lead to truth, just to belief. And as we know there is no certainly in belief, and beliefs can be dead wrong.

sounds more like your personal experience. I have found it to be very valuable and an asset. Very reliable .

Though certainly beliefs can be dead wrong... can't argue that point.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I can't find logic here... almost trying to force a circular post in a square peg
Pegs aside, my point is that faith as you describe it is not logical, and a fallacy, that being circular. You have faith in God that it exists, and then faith is a gift from this God. That's circular. And faith is unreliable, so flawed there too.


You have unreliable faith in God (that a God exists, and you could be wrong) and despite possibly being wrong assume any faith comes a a gift from this God. If it was an actual gift from an actual God I would expect faith to be reliable and amazingly truthful. It isn't.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
.


sounds more like your personal experience. I have found it to be very valuable and an asset. Very reliable .

I think that you just hit the nail on the head, Ken, because from what I know about Christianity and from other Christians that I've talked to, it is about their own personal experiences with Christianity. However, the problem comes in when they feel like they need to impose their beliefs on others and that others should have their beliefs because if not, they are sinning or betraying Jesus.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I think that you just hit the nail on the head, Ken, because from what I know about Christianity and from other Christians that I've talked to, it is about their own personal experiences with Christianity. However, the problem comes in when they feel like they need to impose their beliefs on others and that others should have their beliefs because if not, they are sinning or betraying Jesus.

You also have hit the nail on the head. :) Jesus never "imposed" his beliefs (that I am aware of).

Not only that, but to say you are "betraying Jesus" IMV, is betraying the message that Jesus came to give... "He who is without sin, cast the first stone".

Great points, David
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
You also have hit the nail on the head. :) Jesus never "imposed" his beliefs (that I am aware of).

Not only that, but to say you are "betraying Jesus" IMV, is betraying the message that Jesus came to give... "He who is without sin, cast the first stone".

Great points, David

Thank you for the compliment, Ken, however, in Jesus' own words in the following links:

Matthew 12:30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters. (biblehub.com)

Luke 11:23 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters. (biblehub.com)

18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

Matthew 13:1-23 ESV - The Parable of the Sower - That same - Bible Gateway

Also, see: Luke 8:4-14 ESV - The Parable of the Sower - And when a - Bible Gateway

But so far, not very flattering. Although, I guess it depends on what denomination that you belong to because some fundamentalist Christians are more strict and more critical of people who decide that their faith is not for them.

But then there are the next verses, which are a bit more seething:

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

John 15:1-6 ESV - I Am the True Vine - “I am the true - Bible Gateway

But those are just from the synoptic gospels, however, there are more in my next post.
 

David Davidovich

Well-Known Member
And continuing:

2 Corinthians 6:14-17 ESV - The Temple of the Living God - Do not - Bible Gateway

And golly gee for this next one:

2 Peter 2:20-22 ESV - For if, after they have escaped the - Bible Gateway

And then there are these:

Romans 5:9 ESV - Since, therefore, we have now been - Bible Gateway

Galatians 1:6-9 ESV - No Other Gospel - I am astonished that - Bible Gateway

7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 ESV - and to grant relief to you who are - Bible Gateway

And more from the words of Jesus:

Revelation 2:2-5 ESV - “‘I know your works, your toil and - Bible Gateway

Revelation 3:15-16 NIV - I know your deeds, that you are neither - Bible Gateway

But these last two are very hardcore and very damning, in my opinion:

Hebrews 6:4-6 ESV - For it is impossible, in the case of - Bible Gateway

Hebrews 10:26-29 ESV - For if we go on sinning deliberately - Bible Gateway

Also, keep in mind that "sinning" or 'falling away' in those verses can be considered as disagreeing with or deciding that you no longer want to follow your Christian faith, or that you have found a different philosophy or faith or worldview.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Thank you for the compliment, Ken, however, in Jesus' own words in the following links:

Matthew 12:30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters. (biblehub.com)

Luke 11:23 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters. (biblehub.com)



Matthew 13:1-23 ESV - The Parable of the Sower - That same - Bible Gateway

Also, see: Luke 8:4-14 ESV - The Parable of the Sower - And when a - Bible Gateway

But so far, not very flattering. Although, I guess it depends on what denomination that you belong to because some fundamentalist Christians are more strict and more critical of people who decide that their faith is not for them.

But then there are the next verses, which are a bit more seething:

John 15:1-6 ESV - I Am the True Vine - “I am the true - Bible Gateway

But those are just from the synoptic gospels, however, there are more in my next post.
These are great versus - I'm not sure how it applies to what i was talking about. There are consequences or benefits to what we believe and do but even in the versus given, he isn't forcing.

I love the Parable of the Sower especially since Jesus said it was the key of unlocking all other parable. Mark 4:13

Even when Saul was against Jesus, God has a way to reach a person and make him a Paul. Love that message of grace.

As far as John--love that whole chapter.

It is true that there are those who interpret versus differently. I tend to follow Colosians 4:6 and Ephesians 4:29
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Those are a lot of verses... maybe if we diced them one at a time?
 
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