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Just a little question.

Tyr

Proud viking :D:D
THE CRUSADES! A big scar on the face of christianity, contradicts a lot of the bibles teachings. What i would like to know is how christians view it? The phrase cried while slaughtering the infidels "God wills it!". An order to commit mass murder sanctioned by the pope? I invite every one to participate in this, all views would be greatly appreciated. :bow:
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
The most common answer I have gotten is that those who enacted the crusades were not "True" Christians.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
To me it is irrelevant what others do with the title Christian. Their actions don't reflect me. The only thing that matters is that I do my best follow Christ's teachings.
Frubals for you!!
 

MSizer

MSizer
Correct: a very little question reflecting very little thought ...

On the contrary, it is a very big question deserving much more thought than it gets. I grew up in a catholic home, went to catholic school, and went to church almost every week until I was about 16 or so, and didn't even know what the crusades were until well past my abandonment of christianity. Why does that matter? Because it is very insulting to muslims that Saladin showed mercy on the crusaders, and then was rewarded for it by more crusades.
 

rojse

RF Addict
To me it is irrelevant what others do with the title Christian. Their actions don't reflect me. The only thing that matters is that I do my best follow Christ's teachings.

That's the end of the thread right there. Frubals.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
First of all, I would say that when we evaluate historic events, we MUST distance ourselves from the 21st century and put these events into their true historical context. We can't pass judgment on them from our perspective - we have to understand the setting in which these events took place.

The Crusades took place in the middle ages, which was a pretty barbaric time, no matter your religious persuasion.

Islam was on the move, and Islamic tribes had been invading Europe. One of medieval Islam's tenets was one world religion - Mohammedism - and domination of that world. In less than 200 years from the death of Mohammed, they had overtaken Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, Egypt, North Africa, and the South of Spain. The Moslems even crossed the Pyrenees, threatening to stable their horses in St Peter's at Rome, but were at last defeated in 732, just one hundred years from the death of Mohammed.

By the 1100's, they had conquered and dominated Persia, Afghanistan, and a large part of India and in the twelfth century they had already become the absolute masters of all Western Asia, Spain, North Africa and portions of Italy. In the thirteenth century, Muslims overthrew the Byzantine Empire. From Constantinople, they even threatened the German Empire - but finally were successfully defeated and pushed back from the Danube in 1683. So - from about 900 AD to nearly the EIGHTEENTH century, Islam threatened to overrun all of Europe.

Some people would claim that they are now succeeding in that venture - but that's a topic for another thread.

We can't truly understand the Crusades without realizing that the whole of Europe was threatened by the spread of Islam. The Crusades were as much a DEFENSIVE movement as they were religious.

This was an age of battlefields, of massive armies on foot and horseback, of invaders and princes popes and kingdoms.

When the Roman Empire fell apart, the governing of Europe fell into disarray. Kingdoms were up for grabs. The only unifying force throughout Europe was the Church. This was the era in which the Church's power and reach expanded immensely.

As the Church grew in influence, Europe began to stabilize, and the Middle East was swallowed by Islam, the issue of the Holy Land began to grow. Remember that in this era, most faiths, including but not limited to Christianity, placed great importance on holy places, relics, etc. Since about the third century AD, Christians had been taking pilgrimages to the Holy Land - probably earlier than that, but we have records from that era.

In 1009, Hakem, the Caliphe of Egypt, ordered that the Christian holy places in Palestine be destroyed. Though Jews, Christians, and Muslims had until then lived pretty peacefully side by side in the Holy Land, things took a definite turn for the worse.

The Crusades were not simply European armies intent on overtaking Palestine. These groups also consisted of men and women who were simply devout Christians intent on making a pilgrimage to the Holy Land while they were still able to do so.

People joined the Crusades for a wide variety of reasons. Certainly some did so for selfish gain. Others did so for adventure. Others had little choice - they were ruled by kings and princes who demanded their allegience.

It's easy to judge from a distance. But it's also common for people to leave out the HUGE piece of the puzzle that is the threatening spread of Islam during this time. Eastern Christianity especially was under intense attack.

The Crusades were a Holy War in many ways - and not simply an offensive one. The Crusades were a direct response to the aggression of radical Islam.

This does not excuse the barbaric actions of individuals, or the greed of popes and kings.

As a Christian, I vew this era much as I view the Reformation, or the American Civil War. There were many reasons why people picked up the sword - some were noble, some were led by their conscience, some were selfish, some were devout, some were simply adventurous.

I am sure that the Muslims who were fighting to spread their faith across Europe and the world fought for many of the very same reasons.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
It should be noted also that on one of the crusades, the (Roman Catholic) crusaders stopped at Constantinople along the way to murder other (Eastern Orthodox Catholic) Christians!

Bruce
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
On the contrary, it is a very big question deserving much more thought than it gets.
Rubbish. Attempting to smear Christianity with the Crusades (which is precisely what underlies this deceitful "little question") is no more rational or ethical than attempts to smear atheism with Stalin.
 

Tyr

Proud viking :D:D
Not attempting to smear anything here, I love religion, I love hearing peoples views on topics, and this i feel is a big one for christians. Im sorry if I hit a nerve.
 
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rojse

RF Addict
Not attempting to smear anything here, I love religion, I love hearing peoples views on topics, and this i feel is a big one for christians. Im sorry if I hit a nerve grow up a little.

You didn't hti a nerve at all - it's been asked before, the answers bore, and it's obviously an attempt to smear current Christians with the actions of those that lived several hundred years ago, as Jayhawker Soule pointed out.

:sleep:
 

Tyr

Proud viking :D:D
And on another note. Why are they not considered "true" christians? Is it because of what they did or because they interpreted the bible differently than people do today?
 

rojse

RF Addict
And on another note. Why are they not considered "true" christians? Is it because of what they did or because they interpreted the bible differently than people do today?

I don't know - I've never met a true Christian or a false one. All I've met are people who say they are Christians.
 

Tyr

Proud viking :D:D
Once again im not trying to smear anything here. Since you believe that, are christians really that ashamed of it? I only ask this because i have never heard a christian openly talk about the crusades.
 
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