Judaism and Ethno-Conversion

[Sha'irullah]

Before I start I would like to state that I do not wish to bring up any hostilities towards Jews and Muslims as it seems popular for people to believe that every Muslim is hell bent on attacking Jews. I AM NOT THAT SORT OF PERSON!

I do not live in an area that has a Jewish community of any sort within 300 miles so I have never been able to speak to a rabbi or religious leader of any sort regarding my question.
But from various forums on the internet so many Jews are hostile towards conversion of people that are not "Jewish". The word Jew has become so intertwined with a religion and a ethnicity that the two are inseparable now. We have the "religious Jew" and the "ethnic Jew" as descriptions to designate Jews of different religions or none for that matter. This of course becomes highly confusing to many people since it is expected that if you come from Israel or are of a certain Semitic descent then you must be a follower of Judaism. I have actually known an Arab Buddhist so I know for a fact that there are plenty of non-Muslim Arabs. Ethnicity and religion in reality have very little to do with theological choices.

I assume that people of the Judaic faith that are active on this site are more liberal and open. So I would like to know what are your personal standpoints of why you think others of non Jewish/Semetic descent CAN'T or CAN join the founding religion of the Abrahamic faiths.

I have actually never found a Jew who supports conversion oddly. This is something which has baffled me truly.

Salam, namaste, shalom and all that jazz

 

[dantech]

Well, this depends greatly on what type of Judaism the person practices or wishes to practice. Reform Jews make it a lot easier on potential converts compared to Orthodox Jews who are very difficult.

The thing is, we(Orthodox Jews) don't consider Judaism to be a religion to begin with, we consider it a covenant.

You see, a religion is generally started with one teacher who spreads his beliefs. These beliefs are then accepted by disciples who, in turn, preach them to the world. All who accept these beliefs are joined together in a community you might call religion.

A covenant, however, is different. In the case of Judaism, Moses did not preach a religion to individuals. He was more of a leader who empowered his own people, who already had a common heritage, along with the many who decided to join that people, and revealed God to them at Mount sinai. There, he was the middle man in the Covenant that God made with the nation.

This covenant is what unifies us as a nation. It is not the geopgraphic factor, language, culture or governmant. More importantly, even if we sstop keeping our obligations under the covenant, or decide to completely renounce the "religion", the covenant endures. This is why we call it an eternal covenant, binding forever. It is a two-way street and a person can not just decide to relieve himself of his duties.

The difference, in other words, is that in religion, you belong because you believe. In a covenant, you believe because you belong.


Now, talking about conversion. Say you are a Goy (Gentile) who wants to convert to Judaism... You can't just accept their beliefs, you need to join them as a people, and become a part of their heritage.

To do that, you need to become a ger. Ger means "someone who has come to live among the people to which he or she was not born. That's how a ger is described in the Torah and how the process to becoming one is described in the Talmud : "A ger who comes to sojourn among us."

By joining the people, a ger instantly becomes a part of the heritage of these people. He is suddenly under this same covenant. And although the most important part of joining is to believe in the obligations and commandments, it is not essential in the sense that if a ger decides one day to no longer believe in everything, well he will still be considered Jewish since it is a two-way street and he can not break this engagement up on his own.

If you wish to go more into the process of conversion, let me know.

 

[Tarheeler]

I'm a convert to Judaism, and I've encountered very little hostility or resistance from those who were born Jewish.

I've never found found a Jew who rejected the possibility of conversions outright; we might quibble about the methods of doing it or the requirements for it to be valid, but conversion is a recognized way of adding people to the Covenant.

 

[Flankerl]

Huh?

Basic orthodox stand on this issue is that anyone born by a jewish mother or who has gone through a conversion is to be considered jewish.

 

[dantech]

Huh?

Basic orthodox stand on this issue is that anyone born by a jewish mother or who has gone through a conversion is to be considered jewish.

Indeed, but wasn't he asking about a gentile wishing to convert?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I have actually never found a Jew who supports conversion oddly.

Conversion is often discouraged because it is viewed as an extremely imported step perhaps comparable to marriage. No serious Rabbi would want someone to take that step without a high degree of informed commitment. That said, anyone - ANYONE - can convert if they chose to do so; ethnicity has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[dantech]

Conversion is often discouraged because it is viewed as an extremely imported step perhaps comparable to marriage. No serious Rabbi would want someone to take that step without a high degree of informed commitment. That said, anyone - ANYONE - can convert if they chose to do so; ethnicity has absolutely nothing to do with it.

This is true. One thing I have seen though, is some Rabbis who are not willing to take on conversions because of the fear of not doing it right. Their humbleness basically tells them it's such a huge responsibility that they rather not do it from fear of not doing it right. In that case they would refer you to the local, more popular, conversion Rabbis.

 

[jazzymom]

I assume that people of the Judaic faith that are active on this site are more liberal and open. So I would like to know what are your personal standpoints of why you think others of non Jewish/Semetic descent CAN'T or CAN join the founding religion of the Abrahamic faiths.

I have actually never found a Jew who supports conversion oddly. This is something which has baffled me truly.

Salam, namaste, shalom and all that jazz

I am a Jew by choice. I have been active in unaffiliated, Conservative and Reform synagogues. In each I have never felt unwelcome.

I have yet to find a Jew who does not support conversion.

When you become Jewish you become part of the Jewish people.

 

[Flankerl]

Indeed, but wasn't he asking about a gentile wishing to convert?

I have no idea.

 

[Caladan]

There are several serious Jewish convets right here in this forum, so your misconception that Jews wholeheartedly reject converts needs further inspection.
The only difference I can think of between conversion to Judaism and Islam for example, is that in Islam all you need to do is recite the Shahada in order to become a Muslim, while Judaism demands a long and serious study in which the Rabbi is going to make sure your are up to it and may challenge you.
In addition, as Dantech said, in Judaism there is the element of Peoplehood, Judaism was not started by a lone prophet converting people like in the case of Islam, but on a shared religious experience of an entire nation.

 

[Sha'irullah]

There are several serious Jewish convets right here in this forum, so your misconception that Jews wholeheartedly reject converts needs further inspection.
The only difference I can think of between conversion to Judaism and Islam for example, is that in Islam all you need to do is recite the Shahada in order to become a Muslim, while Judaism demands a long and serious study in which the Rabbi is going to make sure your are up to it and may challenge you.
In addition, as Dantech said, in Judaism there is the element of Peoplehood, Judaism was not started by a lone prophet converting people like in the case of Islam, but on a shared religious experience of an entire nation.

Not referring to Jews in general but more along the lines of Jewish clergy. Rabbis seem to oppose it although not in a hostile manner. More in the sense as they do not see it as practical or possible for a person of non-Jewish descent. Muslims can't wait to convert people while Jews seem to oppose conversion or just do it EXTREMELY slowly.
I myself am against proselytization altogether .

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Not referring to Jews in general but more along the lines of Jewish clergy.

Gven:

I do not live in an area that has a Jewish community of any sort within 300 miles so I have never been able to speak to a rabbi or religious leader of any sort regarding my question.

how would you know?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Gven:

​

how would you know?

Devoutly Jewish friends. I can't remember their denomination but I was never able to find a synagogue or Jewish center. All of them said rabbis would not like converting and they themselves seemed opposed to it. They were not hostile about it but they just seemed opposed to it.
I did some fishing on the net and from numerous articles most people got the same impression as I did in person. But it only seems to be an "impression" a non Jew cannot convert.
I have heard of black Jews converting and even Jews of Chinese descent so I know there is a "conversion" of some sorts. It just seems that whenever the topic is brought up in regards to rabbis they seemed opposed to it. Very hard to describe.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Devoutly Jewish friends.

Strange that you would have devoutly Jewish friends and yet "live in an area that has a Jewish community of any sort within 300 miles." Oh, well ...

 

[Jesper]

I've been discussing conversion in another thread and have encountered no opposition. Neither, however, have I encountered anyone pressuring me to convert. That to me shows a healthy attitude, because what I'm basically being told is to take things slowly, study and to make my own decision after time. That encourages me because I grew up a Catholic and am well used to Christians talking to non-Christians about God in a way that tries to convince the non-believer. I find that quite offensive as it should be for the person himself to discover if the Bible is for him/her. It wasn't for me, I struggle with the concept of the Ressurection, and the pressure put on me by my parents to believe was enough to make me suspicious of conversion crusades.

Then there's the fact that Jews believe that non-Jews have the same opportunity to enter Heaven as they do. Jews have actually gone so far as to bury non-Jews in highly significant Jewish cemeteries because the person lived a righteous life, see Oskar Schindler as an example. Those two issues would not be countenanced in certain other faiths, so any suggestion that Jews are not welcoming to others would appear misguided.

 

[Levite]

Not referring to Jews in general but more along the lines of Jewish clergy. Rabbis seem to oppose it although not in a hostile manner. More in the sense as they do not see it as practical or possible for a person of non-Jewish descent. Muslims can't wait to convert people while Jews seem to oppose conversion or just do it EXTREMELY slowly.
I myself am against proselytization altogether .

I am a rabbi, the son of two rabbis, married to a rabbi, with a ton of friends who are rabbis; and not only do I not oppose conversion, I have never met another rabbi who opposes conversion.

I know many, if not most, who take conversion very seriously, and discourage conversion on a whim, or for improper reasons, or without due commitment and thought. Conversion is a matter of great gravity, and requires considerable commitment to study and lifestyle changes.

And of course, we all oppose proselytization: we support the ability of anyone to convert to Judaism who comes to us, and voluntarily seeks us out to become one of us. But we all oppose Jews actively going out and recruiting non-Jews to convert. That is abhorrent.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am a rabbi, the son of two rabbis, married to a rabbi, with a ton of friends who are rabbis; and not only do I not oppose conversion, I have never met another rabbi who opposes conversion.

I know many, if not most, who take conversion very seriously, and discourage conversion on a whim, or for improper reasons, or without due commitment and thought. Conversion is a matter of great gravity, and requires considerable commitment to study and lifestyle changes.

And of course, we all oppose proselytization: we support the ability of anyone to convert to Judaism who comes to us, and voluntarily seeks us out to become one of us. But we all oppose Jews actively going out and recruiting non-Jews to convert. That is abhorrent.

Great response.

 

[Fingy]

I have heard that a prospective convert who approaches a rabbi will be turned away three times before they are "converted". Is this true? It sounds a bit odd to me. It may have been Gore Vidal who said that, sorry I can't remember exactly.