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barnabus said:If there is no different between the Gospels and the Book of Mormon, why is it necessary?
Moroni 10:3-5 - "Behold, I would exhort you that when you read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your heart. And when ye shall recieve these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."
I have discussed faith and works often and I don't think that we completely disagree, but we probably differ on how we understand the Plan of Salvation. What you need to understand is that it isn't because of our faith that we are necessarily saved. Rather, it is because of the grace of Jesus Christ. Mormon doctrine does not concentrate on avoiding Hell. As long as we have faith in Christ we will be saved. Mormon doctrine focuses on getting as close to God as possible. It isn't through our faith that we come close to God. It is through the actions that this faith promotes and repentance. Grace will save us. Faith will qualify us for this grace. Our actions, or works, will determine where we stand in relation to God.Revelation 20:12 - "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life(singular): and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books(plural), according to their works."
This verse in and of itself does imply a salvation by works, but in the context.
Revelations 20:13-" And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Point here is whether or not one is in the "book of life" depends on works is debatable. Furthermore, the book of Romans makes a strong arguement as to justification not of works, but of grace and faith.
Romans 3:22-""even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Roman 3:24-""being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"(Food for Thought: Is salvation something we earn, or a gift from God?)
Romans 3:26-"for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Romans 4:5-" "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Romans 11:6-""But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
There is no basis here for the idea of on-going preaching of the gospel to the dead, as far as I can tell.
With all this in mind, on what grounds can Joseph Smith be dubbed a prophet?
Now, a prophet should have the spirit of prophesy. The question is, what does that mean? Is prophesy fortune telling? Not according to the scriptures. Wilford Woodruff, the 4th President of the LDS church, said, "He is a prophet, I am a prophet, you are, and anybody is a prophet who has the testimony of Jesus Christ, for that is the spirit of prophecy." This is confirmed in Revelation 19:10, "...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy" and in Numbers 11:29 when Moses stated that the God, "would...that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them."The work of a Hebrew prophet was to act as God's messenger and to make known God's will. The message was usually prefaced with the words, "Thus saith Jehovah." He taught men about God's character, showing the full meaning of his dealings with Israel in the past. It was therefore part of the prophetic office to preserve and edit the records of the nation's history...
It was the prophet's duty to denounce sin and foretell its punishment, and to redress, as far as he could, both public and private wrongs. He was to be, above all, a preacher of righteousness. When the people had fallen away from true faith in Jehovah, the prophets had to try to restore that faith and remove false views about the character of God and the nature of the Divine requirement. In certain cases prophets predicted future events, e.g., there are very important prophesies announcing the coming of Messiah's kingdom; but as a rule a prophet was a forthteller rather than a foreteller. In a general sense a prophet is anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost.
For the sake of those following along, here is the scripture that you are interpreting:[FONT="]D&C 3.16-20 says that the Lamanites (Indians) will be converted. For a century and a half, the LDS missionaries have been trying to convert their "Lamanite brothers" and have not done so. The vast majority of Indians are not Mormons, and most of the few who become LDS turn inactive. This has obviously not been fulfilled, after many years and spending vast amounts of money on programs to convert Indians.[/FONT]
These scriptures, in context, are discussing a purpose of the Book of Mormon. The Lord is also chastizing the prophet, which is related to what I mentioned above. The purpose given is that the "Lamanites might come to the knowledge of their fathers, and that they might know the promises of the Lord, and that they might believe the gospel and rely on the merits of Jesus Christ."16 Nevertheless, my work shall go forth, for inasmuch as the knowledge of a Savior has come unto the world, through the testimony of the Jews, even so shall the knowledge of a Savior come unto my people
17 And to the Nephites, and the Jacobites, and the Josephites, and the Zoramites, through the testimony of their fathers
18 And this testimony shall come to the knowledge of the Lamanites, and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites, who dwindled in unbelief because of the iniquity of their fathers, whom the Lord has suffered to destroy their brethren the Nephites, because of their iniquities and their abominations.
Are you serious? A prophesy about a hotel? Is this really the best you could find. Let me quote these scriptures also:[FONT="]In D&C 124.56-60, Smith prophesied that the Nauvoo House in Nauvoo, IL. would be in his family forever (1841). It did not remain in his family, and is not owned by them today. (To my knowledge at the very least.)[/FONT]
Alright, so what is the Nauvoo House? The Nauvoo House was a hotel. The pupose of the house was to house travelers who were arriving in the city - most likely coming to attend the temple. These people would be "blessed" by Joseph Smith's family because the family would take care of the travelers staying in the boarding house. The house wasn't finished when Joseph Smith was killed.56 And now I say unto you, as pertaining to my boarding house which I have commanded you to build for the boarding of strangers, let it be built unto my name, and let my name be named upon it, and let my servant Joseph and his house have place therein, from generation to generation.
57 For this anointing have I put upon his head, that his blessing shall also be put upon the head of his posterity after him.
58 And as I said unto Abraham concerning the kindreds of the earth, even so I say unto my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy seed shall the kindred of the earth be blessed.
In regards to your earlier statements concerning this spiritual revelation concerning the Book of Mormon, as well as the supposed righteousness of Joseph Smith.
On Christmas Day, when the Kirtland brethern were discussing the possible repercussions of [the confrontation with South Carolina], South Carolina was mentioned in a revelation. The naming of a state was a departure for Joseph; political institutions had rarely been named in the revelations... The United States figured only as one of the unnamed nations that were to suffer in the last days. Mormons, like other millenarians, tended to dismiss human political institutions as ephemera doomed to disappear. But the Christmas Day revelation linked "the appearances of troubles among the nations" to prophesies of the last days. The revelation foresaw war in South Carolina that would spread through the world. First the North and South would fight, and later Great Britain as a sourthern ally. "After many days," the slaves would rise up against their masters, and eventually, the Indians, "the remnants who are left of the land," would join in. Reference to the "remnants" would have reminded the Saints of the Book of Mormon prophesies about the remnants of Jacob in America, the Lamanites, vexing the Gentiles if they refused to join Israel.
The Christmas Day revelation was the first Mormon revelation to correlate political events with the millenarian calender, the central project of most millenarian thinkers, who had linked the career of Napolean, for example, to prophesies in the Bible. Joseph's revelation foresaw a series of wars unfolding out of one another - North vs. South, Great Britain and the Nations, slaves rising up, then Indians "will marshall themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry" - until "the consumption decreed, hath made a full end of all nations." The "rebellion" of South Carolina would "terminate in the death and misery of many souls."
Little was made of the Civl War revelation in Joseph's time. He did not publish it during his lifetime, and not until 1876 did it stay in the Doctrine and Covenants for good. The revelation responded to events of the hour, in the spirit of cholera reports, and then was put aside. Interest revived in the 1850s when the conflict between North and South flared up again. In 1861, in the middle of the sucession crisis, a Philadephia newspaper reprinted the revelation as a curiosity, ending the article with the query, "Have we not a prophet among us?"
Many RLDS would probably be offended that you don't consider them to be included in the bunch, but that's off the subject.D&C 57.1-3 (1831) identifies Independence, MO as the center place of Zion, the gathering place of the saintsóit is "the land of promise." This revelation failed because, according to D&C 3.3, any work which is of God could not be frustrated. This "gathering" in Zion was really frustrated, because the Mormons tried to gather there and were physically driven out! To this day, there are few Mormons there; and actually many, many more RLDS members by far! If God was behind this revelation, then the Mormons could not have been driven out by men.
Here are the complete scriptures:D&C 97.19-20 (1833) prophesies: "Surely, Zion is the city of our God, and surely Zion cannot fall, neither be moved out of her place, for God is there and the hand of the Lord is there; And he hath sworn by the power of his might to be her salvation " This either makes Smith a false prophet or God too weak to keep his promises. "Zion" fell and the Mormons were driven out of Independence, MO in 1838-39!
Unfortunately, you, hopefully inadvertantly, left out the proceeding verse which makes it crystal clear that these scriptures are a promise and not a prophesy:19 And the nations of the earth shall honor her, and shall say: Surely Zion is the city of our God, and surely Zion cannot fall, neither be moved out of her place, for God is there, and the hand of the Lord is there;
20 And he hath sworn by the power of his might to be her salvation and her high tower.
Whare are "these things?" They were told to build a temple and not let any unclean thing enter it. The temple was never built, but I believe that in many ways the promise was fulfilled. Zion has prospered; she has spread herself; she has become great and powerful; nations do honor her; and I don't see it falling any time soon. Like I said, this isn't over. Members of the church still believe that Zion will be centered in Missouri and that the temple will be built.18. And, now, behold, if Zion do these things she shall prosper, and spread herself and become very glorious, very great, and very terrible.
http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=199Latter-day Saints use the name Zion to signify a group of God's followers, a place where such a group lives, or the state of mind and heart of such a group. Latter-day scriptures define Zion as the "pure in heart" (D&C 97:21). "Pure in heart" may be explained in terms of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus said that to be saved a person must believe in him, repent of sins, and be born of water and of the Spirit (John 3:5, 16). Scripture describes the rebirth to which Jesus refers as a "mighty change in your hearts" or being "born of God" (Alma 5:13, 14). A person who is pure in heart is one who has died to evil and awakened to good. The people of Zion live together in love as equals; they have "all things common" (4 Nephi 1:3); they labor together, each contributing to the work of salvation according to their individual talents. People of Zion enjoy a fulness of life, or happiness, in the highest degree possible in this world and, if they remain faithful, in the world to come. The prophets always labor to prepare people to become a people of Zion. In the Restoration, Joseph Smith taught his people that they can, and must, become people of Zion. That vision inspires the labors and programs of the Church to this day.
[FONT="]As I explained earlier, Joseph Smith met the second criteria in the passage in that his prophecies did not come true.( I have more such examples if necessary.)[/FONT]
Did you really just use a quote of Joseph Smith quoting Paul to prove your point? So, by your definition, I guess that Paul is also false prophet. I guess I find this incredibly ironic because Southern Baptists usually hold Paul at a higher level than even Christ himself. I never thought I'd see the day when a Southern Baptist was so desperate to prove a Mormon was wrong that he would actually discredit the man whose doctrines are the foundation of their faith. James I could see you discrediting, but I always thought that Paul was off limits. Again, isn't it obvious to you that your interpretation of this scripture is not supported by the Bible?[FONT="]For proclaiming other gods, we have the written word of Smith. Whether or not these passages are official doctrine of the church is void, in that Joseph Smith did teach such things in the name of God, and that they declare the existence of other gods.[/FONT]
[FONT="]"Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 474). [/FONT]
This is a quote from the King Follet Discourse, one of my favorite sermons by Joseph Smith. It was given at the funeral of a young man named King Follet. Here is the complete paragraph:[FONT="]"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5)[/FONT]
In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. When we begin to learn this way, we begin to learn the only true God, and what kind of a being we have got to worship. Having a knowledge of God, we begin to know how to approach him, and how to ask so as to receive an answer. When we understand the character of God, and how to come to him, he begins to unfold the heavens to us, and to tell us all about it. When we are ready to come to him, he is ready to come to us.
[FONT="]"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man....it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).[/FONT]
[FONT="]I would also like to point out the fundamental problem of how the Book of Mormon can be true when it defies every historic and anthropological kind of evidence. Not only does scientific evidence refute any kind of civilization as that described in the Book of Mormon , it give concrete evidence of a totally different civilization in its place. [/FONT]