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Jonny vs. Barnabus - One-on-one Debate

Discussion in 'One-on-One Debates' started by jonny, Mar 14, 2006.

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  1. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Barnabus has agreed to a one-on-one debate with me in regards to some of his information about Mormonism. We have agreed to the following:

    (1) That the debate would be between he and I.
    (2) Barnabus agreed to cite any sources of information about the LDS church.
    (3) The discussion will remain civil and respectful.

    I'll let him start when he gets a chance.
     
  2. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    I should also add that it is helpful if we keep it to one topic at a time. I'm sure you've gathered a lot of information to throw out, but let's try focus on one thing at a time. We can move on to new topics after the first topic has been adequately debated.

    It might be helpful also for you to give your religious background. I don't think we've really met properly.
     
  3. barnabus

    barnabus Member

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    Query:Why was Joseph Smith still preaching against polygamy in October 1843 after he got his revelation in July 1843 commanding the practice of polygamy? (Doc. & Cov. 132; and History of the Church Vol. 6, page 46, or Teachings of the Prophet, page 324).(Not loaded.)
     
  4. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Since we're copying and pasting questions, I'll just copy and paste an answer:



    http://www.shields-research.org/Critics/CARM-JAT.htm

    You can read the rest of the answers on the website.

    Also, I'm not going to do your research for you. If you'd like me to defend what's in those sources, you're going to need to provide me with the information in them. I don't have the History of the Church books and have no clue what your question is referencing from it.

    In July, Joseph Smith received the revelation in D&C Section 132. This revelation sets forth the laws governing plural marriage, starting in verse 58.

    I also have a copy of the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. The quote being referenced from October in your question is, "Gave instructions to try those persons who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality or wives; for, according to the law, I hold the keys of this power in the last days; for there is never but one on earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred; and I have constantly said that no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise." (TPJS pg, 324, Oct 10, 1843)

    I don't know what it says in the History of the Church, but it seems to me that Joseph Smith was just trying to keep control. Plural marriage was never practiced openly during Joseph Smith's life. In fact, the RLDS church contends that it never happened (I disagree, as one of my ancestors, Patty Sessions, was married to Joseph Smith). The doctrine wasn't announced to the public until 1852. I believe that Joseph Smith was caught between his will and the Lord's will. I don't believe that he wanted to be a polygamist, but was following what he believed was God's desire.

    In the book Rough Stone Rolling, Bushman said the following:

    When discussing what plural marriage was to Joseph Smith, I don't think we quite understand it 100%. My ancestor who was married to him, for example, was already married to another man. It was more of a spiritual marriage than anything else.
     
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  5. barnabus

    barnabus Member

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    Sweet.

    Define salvation, as well as how and why it can be acquired, if you will.
     
  6. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    There are a couple of different meanings for "salvation" in Mormonism, but I'm assuming that you are referring to salvation from sin. Salvation from sin means that we need to be cleansed from sin. This is acquired only through the atonement of Jesus Christ and is necessary because, no matter how much we do, we will always fall short and need to rely on the grace of Jesus Christ to be redeemed from sin.

    To be cleansed through the atonement, we need to exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and remain faithful throughout our lives.

    You might also be referring to being "born again." The Book of Mormon teaches in Mosiah 27:25-26 that "All mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; and thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in no wise inherit the kingdom of God." I believe that being born again is a process that happens when we are baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. We should have a change of heart and commit ourselves to following the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    I guess you might also be asking about salvation from the first and second death. The first death is physical death. We are saved from this death through the atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Because Christ rose from the dead and conquered physical death, each of us will rise from the dead and be resurrected. The second death, spiritual death, is being cut off from God. Again, we are saved from this death through the atonement of Jesus Christ. According to LDS doctrine, almost everyone will be saved from spiritual death, except for a select few who commit the unforgivable sin, which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. All other sins will eventually be forgiven.
     
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  7. barnabus

    barnabus Member

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    Interesting.

    But is it not written", Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it."(Matthew 7:13-14)

    Mormon explanations?
     
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  8. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Great question. What is the gate that is being talked about? I believe it is baptism. The path to God is a straight and narrow path. Relatively few will find it in this life, but all will be given the opportunity to accept it in the next life.

    Doctrine and Covenants 132:25 states, "Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law."

    What are the deaths being described? First, there was the fall of man. By default we are on the road to "destruction." This isn't a road we choose, rather it is a road we end up on because we don't choose the Savior. Because of the fall, we are seperated from God. We are in a carnal state. This is a form of spiritual death (I realized I used the same term above to describe the sons of perdition, but it's the same idea). Few people will overcome this death in this life. Until they overcome it, they are not on a path that will lead to exaltation, rather they are on a path that will not allow them to fulfill their eternal potential, which is to become like God.

    The road to life begins with baptism. Doctrine and Covenants 132:21-24 states, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot obtain this glory. For straight is the gate and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. For if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also. This is eternal lives - to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law."

    So, we know that the gate is baptism and that the path leads to exaltation. What of destruction? Certainly you know that I believe that each of us has the potential to become like God. Those who do not enter the gate of baptism and do not stay on the path cannot become like God. They are destroyed (not literally), in effect, because their potential is limited and they cannot fulfill the purpose for their creation.
     
  9. barnabus

    barnabus Member

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    No offense, but nowhere in the above passage from Matthew, or from the D&C for that matter, is there any mention of "the gate" being baptism? By the way, is this baptism spiritual or physical, or a mixture of both in your understanding?Explain in detail, if you will.

    Furthermore,in regards to a second oppurtunity to accept the redemption of offered by Christ after death, is it not written ?
    "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement."(Hebrews 9:27)
     
  10. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I forgot the scripture that references the gate as being baptism:

    2 Nephi 31:17-18 - "For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And then are ye in this straight and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye enter in by the way ye should receive."

    And since my favorite scripture follows shortly thereafter, I'm going to include it just for fun.

    Verse 20 - Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the words of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

    From the verses above, you can see that baptism is both spiritual and physical. We were commanded to be born again of water and of the spirit. When we are baptised with water we make a covenant with God and take the name of Christ upon us. The spirit seals this covenant and provides comfort, protection, and guidance as we follow the path that leads to God.

    On your second question, I don't see the opportunity to accept Christ after death as a "second chance." It is before the final judgment. For many people it will be their first chance. I see the next life as a continuation of this life. I agree that there are no second chances. We might disagree on when it is too late.
     
  11. barnabus

    barnabus Member

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    For the sake of comparison, is there an equivalent to this passage in the 66 books of the Bible? John the Baptist refers to a baptism of a less physical nature when he says "I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."Explanations?

    "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement" In regards to an oppurtunity for redemption after death, this verse speaks of judgement coming after death, and gives no basis for assuming and imposition between the two. Explanation?

    P.S. Do you have any arguements to put forth?
     
  12. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    I don't know of any scriptures in the Bible that define what "the gate" is. What do you believe it is and why wouldn't baptism be involved?

    In regards to John the Baptist speaking of Christ baptising with the spirit, I believe that both are necessary. In the LDS church, after someone is baptized by water they are given the gift of the Holy Ghost. I believe that this scripture you mentioned above indicates that authority is necessary to perform priesthood ordinances. John the Baptist had the authority to baptize by water, but he did not have the authority to give someone the gift of the Holy Ghost. Christ carried this authority.

    The scriptures teach us that both are necessary - John 3:5, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

    With regards to the gospel being preached to the dead, this is in the Bible. Christ himself "preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:19). Later in 1 Peter 4:6 we read that "the gospel" was "preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." So, here it is outlined, clear as can be, that the gospel being preached to the dead is directly related to the judgment - and the end result isn't eternal death and damnation, but life with God. There is no indication in the scriptures that the judgment happens immediatly upon death. Revelation 20 indicates that the judgment won't happen until after the Millenium.

    Revelation 20:12 - "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

    Oops. I seem to have dragged that we will be judged according to our works into this debate. I'm certain you'll disagree with that one. :D

    What do I argue? I argue that according to your beliefs, Mormons are saved Christians. Could you define what being saved is for me? How will we be judged and how do we obtain salvation?
     
  13. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    No response...
     
  14. barnabus

    barnabus Member

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    1.)
    As for "the gate" I would have to say that Christ was referring to Himself.
    John 10:9-"I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."
    (some translations "door" is translated "gate", but are apparent synonyms.)

    2.)
    As for baptism in John 3:5, the verses around the passage read...
    John 3:4-"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
    John 3:6-"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.''
    With this in mind, it would appear in saying "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit...." Jesus is making a comparison between phsyical and spiritual birth.(There is a great deal of water involved in the birthing process;). )

    3.)
    On baptism for the dead, and the passage "preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Peter 3:19), to my knowledge the Bible nowhere else uses the word "spirit" (Greek: pnema) by itself to refer to human beings. Angels and demons are spirits (Matthew 8:16;10:1;12:45; Acts 5:16; 19:12; Hebrews 1:7; 14:1) whereas human beings have spirits (Luke 23:46; Acts 7:59). If Peter had intended to say that Christ preached to deceased humns, we would expect him to have written someting like " the spirits of those which sometime were disobidient..."(as, for example, in Hebrews 12:23)

    Secondly, the idea that salvation is being offered in the spirit world is out of sync with the development of the arguement in 1 Peter 3:17-22. The purpose of this passage is to encourage suffering Christians with the example of Christ's vindication: He was put to death in flesh but was raised to life and victory( verse 22 says that Christ is "gone into Heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him"). To say that verse 19 is describing the offer of the gospel to deceased humans implies that Peter veered off into an unrelated topic that does not serve this purpose (and is nowhere else mentioned in the Bible). How would it encourage suffering Christians to know that God will give unbelievers (including their persecutors an oppurtunity to repent in the spirit world? In that case, why suffer in the flesh? The fact that the Mormon interpretation results in such a disjunction counts heavily against its validity.


    1 Peter 4:6 does read "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." However, there are major differences between the "preaching" in 4:6 and Christ's proclamation to the spirits in 3:19. For instance, in 4:6 there is no mention of "spirits"- it simply describes those who receive the preaching as "them that are dead"(Greek: nekrois; literally "dead ones") Furthermore, it does not say that Christ preached the gospel, only that "the gospel was preached." In fact, verse 4:6 can only be understood as a reference to Christ preaching in the spirit world if we already know about such a mission from 3:19, but as of yet it does not refer to "those who are dead" but "spirits in prison."

    Even if it is granted for the sake of arguement that 1 Peter 4:6 is an allusion to 3:19, the text still does not support a general doctrine of salvation for the physically dead. Note that it does not say "for this cause is the gospel preached," but "for this cause was the gospel preached (past tense, completed action) to them that are dead." There is no basis here for the idea of on-going preaching of the gospel to the dead, as far as I can tell.

    4.)
    Revelation 20:12 - "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life(singular): and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books(plural), according to their works."

    This verse in and of itself does imply a salvation by works, but in the context.

    Revelations 20:13-" And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

    Point here is whether or not one is in the "book of life" depends on works is debatable. Furthermore, the book of Romans makes a strong arguement as to justification not of works, but of grace and faith.

    Romans 3:22-""even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."

    Roman 3:24-""being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"(Food for Thought: Is salvation something we earn, or a gift from God?)

    Romans 3:26-"for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."

    Romans 4:5-" "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

    Romans 11:6-""But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

    5.)

    Query-

    Galatians 1:6-9 reads
    I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    In an earlier discussion, you countered with the fact that the whole Bible had not yet been written. I can understand that. But, from reading the text, Paul is refering not to the Bible but to the Gospel, and Lord knows that it was completed.

    With this in mind, why should the Book of Mormon be accepted? There is no evidence of the age of the text, or the events it depicts. And if Galatians is of any authority, it should be rejected, despite the standing or inspiration of Joseph Smith.
     
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  15. barnabus

    barnabus Member

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    P.S. Question is not loaded, LOL.
     
  16. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    I'll put in the time to read and respond to your statements over the weekend, but I've gotta say something about this one:

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 - "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall retun unto God who gave it."

    1 Corinthians 6:20 - "...therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit [pneuma], which are God's."

    James 2:26 - "...the body without the spirit [pneuma] is dead."

    Since when did Peter write Hebrews? Last I knew, it was Paul who wrote Hebrews. Arguing that Peter would have written like Paul if Peter had meant to say what Paul was saying isn't a very strong argument. Also, how are you qualified to determine what Peter meant to say?

    The scriptures make it pretty clear that Christ was preaching to people who had been alive at some point:

    1 Peter 3:19 - "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

    It sounds to me like he was preaching to those who were killed during the flood. To be fair, this preaching could have happened either during the flood or during the time when Christ's body was in the tomb (it is clear that he went "by the Spirit"). Because of the context in verse 18 and my understanding of the Plan of Salvation, it makes sense to me that this happened between the crucifixion and resurrection.

    He continues on and mentions that "baptism doth also now save us," but I'll save that arguement for later this weekend.
     
  17. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Are you prepared to demonstrated that the Book of Mormon preaches a different gospel than the one taught by Christ? If the Book of Mormon preaches a gospel different than the one Christ taught than you have an argument. If you can't demonstrate that the gospel is different than accepting the Book of Mormon is a matter of faith, not doctrine.

    You might be interested in this article by a Southern Baptist preacher:
    http://www.centerplace.org/library/bofm/baptistversionofbofm.htm

    This scripture in Revelation could just as easily apply to the Book of Mormon - Revelation 14:6, [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

    Perhaps you would be interested to know what the Angel Moroni preached to Joseph Smith when he visited him. This information is contained in the front of the Book of Mormon and in Joseph Smith History in the Pearl of Great Price. Here is a link: http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/jsphsmth
    [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Before you get too far into this - all of that "wierd" stuff that Mormons believe is found in our other scriptures. The doctrines in the Book of Mormon are very biblical and every time I've seen someone try to prove otherwise there is quite a bit of spinning and twisting of scripture in order to make the point.
    [/FONT]
     
  18. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Good scripture. Now, is there really a difference between accepting Christ and being baptised? I say no. Baptism in the LDS church is a covenant. Through baptism we covenant that we are willing to take upon us the name of Jesus Christ, always remember him, and keep his commandments. I don't believe that this scripture contradicts the scripture that is in 2 Nephi. Thanks for pointing that one out to me. I'll mark it so I remember it.
     
  19. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    I started a thread relating the birthing process to and the rebirth a while back. No one else was interested in it, but you might be since you brought it up. Here is the thread:
    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25490

    In short, there are obvious paralells between the birth and the rebirth, but I think you're over simplifying it. Water, blood, and spirit are present in the birth of the "natural man," and all three also play a part in the rebirth. This is shown more in the thread I posted above.

    Even Christ needed baptism to "fulfill all righteousness" after which his father responded that he was "well pleased." Why did Christ need baptism? You might want to read the entire chapter in 2 Nephi 31: http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/31
     
  20. barnabus

    barnabus Member

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    If there is no different between the Gospels and the Book of Mormon, why is it necessary?
     
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