John The Baptist

[Pink Top Hat]

Christians believe Jesus is divine and some believe he is part of some trinity.

Jesus followed John the baptist and had John the Baptist baptize him in the River Jordan.

What sins was John the baptist washing away from God? Why does God need to be baptised to enter the Kingdom of heaven?

This Christian stuff is so crazy?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is not it, at all. It was the humble nature of Jesus, Jesus leading by example, and doing what he wanted his followers to do. What's crazy is when a leader tells their followers to do something that this leader won't do.

 

[Ken Brown]

Christians believe Jesus is divine and some believe he is part of some trinity.

Jesus followed John the baptist and had John the Baptist baptize him in the River Jordan.

What sins was John the baptist washing away from God? Why does God need to be baptised to enter the Kingdom of heaven?

This Christian stuff is so crazy?

Shalom Pink, interesting question. What does He say as to why He was baptized? Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[George-ananda]

Christians believe Jesus is divine and some believe he is part of some trinity.

Jesus followed John the baptist and had John the Baptist baptize him in the River Jordan.

What sins was John the baptist washing away from God? Why does God need to be baptised to enter the Kingdom of heaven?

This Christian stuff is so crazy?

You are overanalyzing in my opinion dogma that really shouldn't be part of modern thinking. Certainly it is all symbolic (washing sins away with water). And Jesus was showing his support for John's ministry. I am saddened to see so many people confused by ancient dogma. But I think often these people already have an anti-theist attitude to grind (I hope you are not one of them).

 

[outhouse]

baptist

Context is key. You may not have it.

What sins was John the baptist washing away from God?

Uhem putting the cart before the horse I see.


Do you think baptism in Johns time only meant to was away sins??????????????????

Or is that NT teachings after jesus death????

 

[outhouse]

That is not it, at all. It was the humble nature of Jesus, Jesus leading by example, and doing what he wanted his followers to do. What's crazy is when a leader tells their followers to do something that this leader won't do.

There two aspects here. One is what historically took place, the other is the theology and mythology here.

The historical side, is John baptized Jesus as he was probably a student of John, taking over Johns movement after Johns death.


The theological side, baptism meant much more then washing sins away, and little is known about first century Baptism in Galilee in Aramaic circles.

We also have the mikvahs, as well, as the population was required before entering the temple. Rich people had them in their homes.

IN Jesus case, it was known he had been baptized by John, and they were forced to write theology and mythology surrounding said events

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Jesus followed John the baptist and had John the Baptist baptize him in the River Jordan.

Jesus was not a follower of John the Baptist; it was the other way around. John the Baptist, who was guided by and spoken to by the Holy Spirit, recognized Jesus as the Messiah and preached about him, inspiring others to repent and follow him.

What sins was John the baptist washing away from God? Why does God need to be baptised to enter the Kingdom of heaven?

John the Baptist had the same question about who should be baptizing who, and Jesus told him that he would be baptized by John for the sake of fulfilling righteousness. (Matthew 3:15)

So Jesus was baptized, but not just to set an example and/or establish a sacrament. He was baptized so that we can be sanctified, not only by the Holy Spirit, but by water also, as he said it would be (John 3:5). Water sanctifies a person being baptized because Jesus sanctified water for this purpose by being baptized in it himself.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

What sins was John the baptist washing away from God? Why does God need to be baptised to enter the Kingdom of heaven?

Just in case it's not clarified above, God has no sin and does not need to be baptized. His baptism established the form and matter of the sacrament for our benefit rather than for his own.

 

[Unification]

Christians believe Jesus is divine and some believe he is part of some trinity.

Jesus followed John the baptist and had John the Baptist baptize him in the River Jordan.

What sins was John the baptist washing away from God? Why does God need to be baptised to enter the Kingdom of heaven?

This Christian stuff is so crazy?

The Christ is the life force in mankind. Mind energy.

Anyone with a mind missing the mark, or an impure/uncleansed mind won't be in a mental state of rest/bliss.

Water is a symbol for consciousness. The Jordan is an elevated level of energy exalted into a higher state of consciousness.

The mind needs to be cleansed and purified.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

well it did not exactly establish the form because Jesus said you must be submerged in the water but the church decided to just pour a small amount on one's head. very different form. also Jesus said one should repent of sins before being baptized and a small child can't repent. so the matter is not the same either. Oh, that's right, don't worry about Jesus or the Bible, just make up some traditions to follow. Oh, and Jesus even warns about following manmade traditions instead of the Bible.

 

[Thief]

The obvious has been overlooked.

Complete submersion takes your breath away.

Some churches lay you backward and then 'dip' you.

It is supposed to represent the burial....of you.
It is suppose to bring to the front of your motivations...death is pending.
and the response should be a change in your life style....with death pending.

 

[psychoslice]

For me its all metaphorical, John represents our journey to Enlightenment, or to become the Christ with is within all of us. When we are baptised we are cleansed from our old self, we are now brand-new in Christ, this is now our inner Consciousness finally awakened. Baptism of itself does nothing unless we are truly ready to be transformed, Jesus represent a man that was truly ready, and hence he became the Christ, John had to more or less disappear from the story so as to let Jesus teach from his fullness, and in the end he had to let go of his imprisonment of the mind body organism, and hence the crucifixion. We all need to realize that we are not just the mind body organism, we are One in God, or pure Source, this is our true home, and to live there we must put away the mind body that has kept us imprisoned, and live new in our new freedom, the Christ Consciousness.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

well it did not exactly establish the form because Jesus said you must be submerged in the water but the church decided to just pour a small amount on one's head. very different form.

No, Jesus did not say you must be submerged, and we don't know for certain whether he was submerged or not. "Going down into the water" and "coming up out of the water" could mean being submerged or it could just mean getting into the river and getting out. In any case, the amount of water used for baptism makes no difference as to the validity of a baptism.

Consider Ezechiel 36:25: And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols. "Pour" in this verse is also often translated as "sprinkle." So if God says he purifies by pouring or sprinkling water in the old covenant, then he can do the same in the new covenant. It would be insulting to say that the power of God in water is greater or lesser depending on the volume of water. Besides all that, the apostles had more than one method of baptism, and so may we. The matter is water and the form is "I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." How much water is not an issue.

also Jesus said one should repent of sins before being baptized and a small child can't repent. so the matter is not the same either.

The apostles baptized entire households, which would necessarily include children of all ages. There is nothing in scripture saying that children or babies were not baptized. There was nothing in the traditions or practice in the first 1500 years of Christianity that excluded babies from being baptized, and there wouldn't have been any such thought. Jewish baby boys were circumcised when they were 8 days old in order to come into communion with God. So there is no reason why a Christian parent should not want their offspring to come into communion with God by receiving the Holy Spirit, and there is still the same parental authority and responsibility to consecrate a child to God.

Oh, that's right, don't worry about Jesus or the Bible, just make up some traditions to follow. Oh, and Jesus even warns about following manmade traditions instead of the Bible.

And that is the definition of Protestantism.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There two aspects here. One is what historically took place, the other is the theology and mythology here.

Well, one, we have no actual historical evidence of this even happening, so the "historical" point is entirely irrelevant.
As for theology, what I posted comes from a Biblical scholar position. Jesus really didn't put himself above humans despite his divine nature. He lived with humans, mingled with humans, and he taught humans. And theologically, there is no evidence to suggest Jesus was a student of John, even though the coming of both of them were foretold. Jesus was leading by example, highlighting the character trait of humility, and symbolically showing that his ministry was of God.
If you want to get literary about it, it was a symbolic foreshadowing of his own life, death, and resurrection, and many churches today even teach that baptism symbolically represents such things, through the old life being drowned, sins washed away, and a newly "resurrected" life emerging.

 

[Bunyip]

Christians believe Jesus is divine and some believe he is part of some trinity.

Jesus followed John the baptist and had John the Baptist baptize him in the River Jordan.

What sins was John the baptist washing away from God? Why does God need to be baptised to enter the Kingdom of heaven?

This Christian stuff is so crazy?

I don't think that equating God to Jesus necessarily fits all forms of Christianity, or all interpretations of scripture.

 

[ether-ore]

Christians believe Jesus is divine and some believe he is part of some trinity.

Jesus followed John the baptist and had John the Baptist baptize him in the River Jordan.

What sins was John the baptist washing away from God? Why does God need to be baptised to enter the Kingdom of heaven?

This Christian stuff is so crazy?

Jesus Christ had committed no sin. Remember what He told John the Baptist when John questioned Him on it: Matthew 3:15: "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him." Jesus was baptized not to wash away any sins He had committed. He had not committed any. He was baptized because it was a commandment and even Christ had to obey the law whether He needed it or not. And besides, Christ was setting an example for us to follow since as He told Nicodemus: John 3:5: "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Meaning, unless one is baptized by someone with authority to do so (as John was), they don't get into heaven.

 

[Ken Brown]

Jesus Christ had committed no sin. Remember what He told John the Baptist when John questioned Him on it: Matthew 3:15: "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him." Jesus was baptized not to wash away any sins He had committed. He had not committed any. He was baptized because it was a commandment and even Christ had to obey the law whether He needed it or not. And besides, Christ was setting an example for us to follow since as He told Nicodemus: John 3:5: "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Meaning, unless one is baptized by someone with authority to do so (as John was), they don't get into heaven.

Shalom ether-ore, I liked your answer that He was baptized to "fulfil all righteousness," and then you properly understood that "it was a commandment" that He be baptized. I would ask of you to show us where the Torah commands that the Moshiach be baptized. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[Thief]

did anyone notice the comment in scripture....
He (Jesus) did not baptize.....His disciples did.

 

[ether-ore]

Shalom ether-ore, I liked your answer that He was baptized to "fulfil all righteousness," and then you properly understood that "it was a commandment" that He be baptized. I would ask of you to show us where the Torah commands that the Moshiach be baptized. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

What I understand is this: Baptism did not originate with John... John the Baptist was already baptizing in the Jordan River before Jesus came to him and many Jews came to him to be baptized. They understood the ordinance and its necessity. John was not teaching some new doctrine that the Jews did not understand. They came to John because they recognized him as a prophet with authority to baptize.
All these things came to and through the House of Israel because it was to them that the original prophesies were given. Remember, "baptism" is a Greek word, not a Hebrew one. To the Jews, before New Testament times, it was simply referred to as the ordinance of "washing". Here are some references that I believe refer to these "washings":
Isaiah 48:1: "Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the Lord, and make mention of the God of Israel..."
The waters of Judah mentioned here has reference to the fact that the Jews knew that the Messiah was to come through the tribe of Judah, but rather than use the phrase, "waters of the Messiah" (in who's name they must be washed) waters of Judah was used instead to protect the sacred name. Notice as well, Isaiah says "and". One has to be called by the name of Israel "and" be baptized (to use the Greek term). I happen to believe that I am adopted into the House of Israel. Specifically into the tribe of Ephraim the son of Joseph. I believe this is what the symbology of Joseph's coat of many colors had reference to; that all who are washed in the name of the Messiah would be counted as sons of Abraham (through Joseph) to whom it was said that through him would "all" the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Joseph's coat of many colors = all races.
In I Kings 7:23-26 we have this:
23 ¶And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.
24 And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about: the knops were cast in two rows, when it was cast.
25 It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward.
26 And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two thousand baths.
Solomon was not doing anything but what the Lord or the law commanded him to do. Do you suppose this vessel (molten out of brass) had any other purpose than the ordinance of washing? Consider the two thousand baths. Would not that volume of water suggest immersion.
The references are scarce and maybe a bit vague, but I believe they are there. Besides, being LDS, I believe revelation given through Joseph Smith clarifies this issue beyond doubt.

 

[outhouse]

Jesus really didn't put himself above humans despite his divine nature. He lived with humans, mingled with humans, and he taught humans

He was not considered divine while alive.

And theologically, there is no evidence to suggest Jesus was a student of John,

Sure about that? Scholars generally believe Jesus was a follower or disciple of John

To be baptized is to be a student.