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John 17:20-23
- Thread starter Halcyon
- Start date
SoyLeche
meh...
Personally, I believe that the unity and oneness involved here is that of purpose, not substance. God and Christ have the same purpose, goals and desires - and they want us to join in them. Kinda like a <pick your favorite sport> team - they work best when they are "one" - although still individuals.
Halcyon said:
Christ and God are not one in substance. The Bible never even hints that they are. That silly idea is the result of misguided Christians trying to reconcile their seemingly base religion with the popular intellectual movements of the time, so they could pick up the Greek vote, so to speak. The Catholics for some reason felt that worshipping God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit as seperate beings was akin to polytheism and blasphemy. It doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible, but they came up with these esoteric and meaningless definitions of what God is and the Greeks ate it up. Gnosticism was just a marriage of neo-Platonic thought and this perverted Christianity. The early church fathers (those who knew the Apostles personally) never taught that the flesh was corrupt, that God and Jesus were one in substance, or even that God didn't have as body.
dan said:
Please be patient, I am new to the site.Thanks
Dan, If you will please help me understand These verses in the first chapter of John.
(In the begining) was the word,and the word was with God,and (the word was God) (John 1:1). If Jesus is the word and the word was God,doesn't this mean that Jesus and God are one in this sense.
And the( word was made flesh),and dwelt among us,and we beheld his glory,the glory (as of the only begotten of the father,) full of grace and truth(John 1:14).
Let this mind be in you,which was also in Christ:Who,being in the form of God,thought it not robbery to be equal with God (Phil.2:6).in love Baerly
lunamoth
Will to love
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Hi Halcyon, Seems to me you are ignoring half of the equation here, and kind of the main point of the passage. This is a prayer for unity among the believers, the followers of Christ. He is praying that they will be one with each other, in the manner that Christ is one with the Father. My understanding of what He means by unity is that they will love each other. The phrase "May they also be in us" refers the believers, us living in God's love and taking that love out into the world.
It's not that we become God, but that we choose to live in God's cycle of love. We receive God's love, we love each other, and that love goes out into the world, and we love God. Love leads to unity.
"And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity." (Col 3:14).
Can't say this is 'orthodox." Just how it strikes me.
lunamoth
Halcyon said:
Hi Halcyon, Seems to me you are ignoring half of the equation here, and kind of the main point of the passage. This is a prayer for unity among the believers, the followers of Christ. He is praying that they will be one with each other, in the manner that Christ is one with the Father. My understanding of what He means by unity is that they will love each other. The phrase "May they also be in us" refers the believers, us living in God's love and taking that love out into the world.
It's not that we become God, but that we choose to live in God's cycle of love. We receive God's love, we love each other, and that love goes out into the world, and we love God. Love leads to unity.
"And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity." (Col 3:14).
Can't say this is 'orthodox." Just how it strikes me.
lunamoth
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
Ah, ok i think i understand luna, thanks. Just one little thing, what do you think it means by "I in them and you in me" in relation to your interpretation?lunamoth said:Hi Halcyon, Seems to me you are ignoring half of the equation here, and kind of the main point of the passage. This is a prayer for unity among the believers, the followers of Christ. He is praying that they will be one with each other, in the manner that Christ is one with the Father. My understanding of what He means by unity is that they will love each other. The phrase "May they also be in us" refers the believers, us living in God's love and taking that love out into the world.
It's not that we become God, but that we choose to live in God's cycle of love. We receive God's love, we love each other, and that love goes out into the world, and we love God. Love leads to unity.
"And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity." (Col 3:14).
Can't say this is 'orthodox." Just how it strikes me.
lunamoth
lunamoth
Will to love
Halcyon said:
I have a panentheistic view of God, and I think this refers to the idea that we live and move and have our being in God. God is not His Creation, but Something More. Frankly I think it is outside any analogy I could come up with, but perhaps God as an Ocean in which we swim comes close. And again, the way we experience this Ocean of God is through love. Not love as an emotion, but Love as in compassionate action and our best effort at social justice. This is also what the Trinity means to me: there has always been Love, this Ocean of God, because there has always been the Trinity, a Manifestation of Love in God. You can see Trinity as a cycle of Love in itself.
I think you'd have to elaborate more on how what you highlighted is a Gnostic View for me to compare any more with it.
cheers,
luna
Defij
Member
Halcyon said:
Well lets just break it down verse by verse.
My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message Pretty straight forward, Jesus is praying for not only his direct disciples but also for the people that they will effect, and so forth.
, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.Jesus would seem to be speaking here about how he wishes that we (the Church or believers in Christ) will be of one mind, one accord, just like Jesus and God were very intimately linked and of one mind, one accord.
May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.This is our requirement in the New Covenant; Christ likeness. Think of a covenant as a contract, with parties (in the case of the NC, its God and the entire world), terms (in the NC it is Christ likeness) and promises (in the NC, sins forgiven, life everlasting, etc). Us being in Christ and God is saying us as Christians having the same mind as Christ, so that we can be a witness to the world that Jesus is sent from God.
I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. --This is talking about the ability of a renewed life that we as Christians have the chance to partake in throughout our life in Christ.
May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.This again just harkens back to the earlier part of the text.
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
Sure.lunamoth said:
He's praying that all people will realise they are one with God and one with each other, just as Christ is.
Not one in intent or mind, but simply as it states, one.
Same as above, he prays all people will be one in God. The more people who are like Christ, the more people they can reach and teach.
Again its pretty repetitive, he's praying that all will realise and become one in God. God gave him Gnosis, and he's passed on how to gain Gnosis to them.
Complete unity. Again this just means to become totally one with God. The second bit being a repeat of an earlier sentence.
Halcyon said:
Strangely enough, that is totally in line with my belief. But to answer your question; this seems to be the generally accepted interpretation:-
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2713
Jesus prays for the ones who believe in him on account of the testimony of the disciples (17:20-26)
17:20 Ouj periV touvtwn deV ejrwtw' movnon Now as his prayer is drawing to a close Jesus goes on to pray for those who will believe in him on account of the disciples testimony. Although pisteuovntwn is a present participle, it must in context carry futuristic force. The disciples whom Jesus is leaving behind will carry on his ministry and in doing so will see others come to trust in him. This will include not only Jewish Christians, but other Gentile Christians who are not of this fold (10:16), and thus Jesus prayer for unity is especially appropriate in light of the probability that most of the readers of the Gospel are Gentiles (much as Paul stresses unity between Jewish and Gentile Christians in Eph 2:10-22).
17:21 i{na pavnte" e}n wsin The model for this unity is the unity which exists between the Father and the Son, a unity which allows for diversity of persons while maintaining essential unity. The ultimate result of such unity among believers will be that the world comes to believe that the Father sent Jesus (i{na oJ kovsmo" pisteuvh/ o{ti suv me ajpevsteila", compare i{na ginwvskh/ oJ kovsmo" o{ti suv me ajpevsteila" kaiV hjgavphsa" aujtouV" kaqwV" ejmeV hjgavphsa" in verse 23).
A parallel structure may be seen in verses 21-23, as follows:
21a i{na pavnte" e}n wsin
21b kaqwV" suv, pavter, ejn ejmoiV kajgwV ejn soiv
21c i{na kaiV aujtoiV ejn hJmi'n wsin
21d i{na oJ kovsmo" pisteuvh/ o{ti suv me ajpevsteila"
22b i{na wsin e}n
22c-23a kaqwV" hJmei'" e}n: ejgwV ejn aujtoi'" kaiV suV ejn ejmoiv
23b i{na wsin teteleiwmevnoi eij" e{n
23c i{na ginwvskh/ oJ kovsmo" o{ti suv me ajpevsteila" kaiV hjgavphsa" aujtouV" kaqwV" ejmeV hjgavphsa"
The first and second i{na in each case deals with the unity of believers, as illustrated both times by the unity which exists between the Father and the Son (the kaqwvV" clauses). The third i{na in each case looks at the effect of this unity on the world.
17:22 thVn dovxan Jesus now says that he has given to those who believe on account of the disciples testimony the glory which the Father had given to him, that they may be one. This again is proleptic, since these people to whom Jesus speaks of giving glory have not even come to believe in him yet. They will do so later on account of his disciples continuation of his ministry.
17:23 i{na wsin teteleiwmevnoi eij" e{n Jesus now requests that these people who believe on account of the disciples testimony may be completed into one (teteleiwmevnoi eij" e{n) which again (as in verse 21) will result in the world coming to know that Jesus had been sent by the Father.
lunamoth
Will to love
Hi Halcyone, Thank you for your reponse.
luna
OK. I agree with this. I think the separation from God we experience in this life, this duality, is a result of the Fall.Halcyon said:
This is good. But I would phrase it that the more people manifesting Christ's love in the world, the more people will be attracted to the Christ Spirit.
Come again? I think you will need to explain this a bit more. How does one gain Gnosis? Do you mean that Gnosis is the realization that we are all one with each other and one with God? I realize this already.
Repeated for emphasis, yes I agree that this is what is going on. But what does it look like for people to be one in God?
luna
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
This is true too.lunamoth said:
Sorry to be blunt, but you don't realise it... neither do I.lunamoth said:
I'll use one of my infamously poor analogies to explain.
Imagine a person who has never tasted anything sweet. Now try to imagine attempting to explain to this person what sweet is - impossible, isn't it?
This guy can study what makes food sweet, how the tongue senses sweet, hear the testimony of people eating candy, but they will never realise what sweet is until they have tasted it for themselves.
Its the same with Gnosis, you can know that we are one with God, but until you experience it for yourself - until you see the face of God - you will not realise what oneness
is.
I have no idea.lunamoth said:
EnhancedSpirit
High Priestess
Remember that we are using words of the material world to explain spiritual matters. I think the gnostics are correct in the interpretation of this, and there are other places in the bible where Jesus reminds the people that God made us all in his image, and we are all God's children. We are all trying to return to the Source. To become One with God. Christ is part of the trinity, and Jesus became the Head of Christ, we are to be the body of Christ. Christ is the word made flesh(the creative energy of God), Christ is the word (the word that was God).
Jesus was not born as Christ, he bacame Christ after he was baptized and recieved the Holy Spirit.
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
Truth i guess.lunamoth said:Then why would anyone want it?
Why would anyone want to go to Heaven?
http://www.nobeliefs.com/heaven.htm
d.
_______
Halcyon said:
that's one great link halcyon. :yes:
lunamoth
Will to love
Halcyon said:
ROFL! Hehe, I already passed on Borg heaven. Actually, some days I'm not even sure I believe in an after life, but it's one of those things that we take on faith with hope. Rather I think that 'salvation' is for this life, and what it looks like is described by Paul.
luna
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
(King James Bible, John)
Jesus prays for his disciples and for those who will believe in Him to be one with each other, and one with Jesus and the Father so that they will be able to tell others so the world will believe in Jesus. The key to being one with each other and with the Father and Son, is to believe in Jesus, that He died, was buried, and rose again. Thus we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, our spirit is regenerated, and we have power to spread this gospel to all the world.
17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
(King James Bible, John)
Jesus prays for his disciples and for those who will believe in Him to be one with each other, and one with Jesus and the Father so that they will be able to tell others so the world will believe in Jesus. The key to being one with each other and with the Father and Son, is to believe in Jesus, that He died, was buried, and rose again. Thus we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, our spirit is regenerated, and we have power to spread this gospel to all the world.
EnhancedSpirit
High Priestess
This is the same word that created us (mankind). We are also the word made flesh, and we were also there in the beginning. This is part of the oneness. We are not seperate from God, and never have been, except by our own perception (distorted reflections). If God is infinite, and we are part of God, then we are also infinite (spiritually, not physically). Our spirit is in a state of evolution, just like the earth is in a state of evolution. And our journey started 'in the beginning'. It is important for us to know our past, so that we may remember why we are here. The trauma of birth makes us forget our past, but the lives we chose are filled with reminders we have left for ourselves to remember. Just like Jesus, we have a purpose, to love one another.Baerly said:
Halcyon said:
"I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. John 17;20-23.......... i would say unity of purpose works wonders as other verses tell us also.
(Romans 12:5) so we, although many, are one body in union with Christ, but members belonging individually to one another.
(1 Corinthians 1:10) Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.
(Galatians 3:28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus.
(1 John 1:7) However, if we are walking in the light as he himself is in the light, we do have a sharing with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.(1 Corinthians 1:10) Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.
(Galatians 3:28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus.