jewish

[Kenny]

I agree, the directive to be righteous can be found in Tanach. But the method is completely new. Being born anew and receiving the Holy Spirit are innovations brought by Jesus.

This ^^ is a new law. Not Jewish.

This is a completely new concept, Not Jewish.

I find the concept in multiple areas in the TaNaKh.

Whether a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26), a new name (Genesis 32:28), the new beginning in the promised land (Joshua 4) , placing His Spirit in you (Ezekiel 37:14)

Maybe he was just bringing understanding of the same?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And again, you have to hundreds, possibly thousands, of Tanakh verses, and make them not about Messiah, to avoid making Jesus the obvious Messiah.

Who is regarded worldwide as the Prince of Peace, for example? Secular Jews know it's Jesus Christ as regarded by the Gentiles, and most secular Jews don't know who King Hezekiah was!

Secular Jews don't believe in Jesus any more than religious Jews.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Davidic King/Mashiahh according to Torath Mosheh Sources

Why Torah based Jews would be unconvinced

There is no Judaism vs. Christianity - There is Judaism and there is Christianity

Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity

Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

Jews and Jesus

 

[BilliardsBall]

Secular Jews don't believe in Jesus any more than religious Jews.

That some, not all Jews (I'm Jewish) reject Messiah has nothing to do with my post--that even most Jews don't think Hezekiah is the Prince of Peace, rather, hundreds of millions of people worldwide think it's JESUS who fulfills the prophecy about the Prince of Peace.

What I actually wrote was: "And again, you have to hundreds, possibly thousands, of Tanakh verses, and make them not about Messiah, to avoid making Jesus the obvious Messiah.

Who is regarded worldwide as the Prince of Peace, for example? Secular Jews know it's Jesus Christ as regarded by the Gentiles, and most secular Jews don't know who King Hezekiah was!"

 

[BilliardsBall]

That you find this 'argument' to be anything other than silly is a miracle in and of itself.

I'd be more open to deconversion if I could find nice people making sound arguments.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So you are basing your argument on your assessment of what "secular Jews know"?
I can find plenty of secular Jews who know nothing of the sort. I can also find secular Jews who know who Hezekiah was. Therefore your argument collapses. I really feel that if you want to build a belief system, relying on your personal assumption about what other people "know" is not the best route.

No, I'm basing my argument on God's ability to communicate.

The entire world--practically speaking--knows Yeshua is Prince of Peace and Messiah, per the prophecy--because it's God's prophecy, not a prophecy from some Christian writer, yes?

Therefore, secular Jews know Yeshua is Prince of Peace, not Hezekiah, because God's fulfilment of prophecy is known to the nations, depsite attempts by some Jewish brethren to mislabel prophetic, holy scriptures.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Who is regarded worldwide as the Prince of Peace, for example? Secular Jews know it's Jesus Christ as regarded by the Gentiles, and most secular Jews don't know who King Hezekiah was!"

OMG -- "regarded worldwide" mazal tov! First, being regarded world wide as something is a particularly mushy formulation. Note:

As of the year 2020, Christianity had approximately 2.3 billion adherents. According to a PEW estimation in 2020, Christians made up to 2.3 billion of the worldwide population of about 7.8 billion people. It represents nearly one-third of the world's population and is the largest religion in the world, ... [source]​

Obviously, if "nearly one-third of the world's population" is Christian, over two-thirds of the world's population is not.

More to the point, knowing for whom a characterization is used is simple social awareness and says absolutely nothing about whether the characterization is accurate or, for that matter, sensible. It does, however, tell us that the bloody Christian conquest has left its mark, albeit a mark that is fading with the Decline of Christianity in the Western world.

Gloating about the effectiveness of nearly two millennium of Christian marketing in a thread labelled "jewish" should surprise no one.

 

[rosends]

No, I'm basing my argument on God's ability to communicate.

Then relying on secular Jews is not the best group to rely on.

The entire world--practically speaking--knows Yeshua is Prince of Peace and Messiah, per the prophecy--because it's God's prophecy, not a prophecy from some Christian writer, yes?

No. If you look at a table of world populations, you will see that more people don't "know" that than supposedly do. Muslims don't see Jesus as the messiah. Other religions don't "know" Jesus as anything particularly peaceful, or a prince. And if you are claiming that most of the world knows it because it is in the Jewish bible, then would you make the same claim about all sorts of other prophecies in the jewish bible? Or is it because the prophecy is coopted by the Christian canon, in which case, it is, indeed by "some Christian writer."

Therefore, secular Jews know Yeshua is Prince of Peace, not Hezekiah, because God's fulfilment of prophecy is known to the nations, depsite attempts by some Jewish brethren to mislabel prophetic, holy scriptures.

Therefore secular Jews know nothing of the sort, at least not by untested assumption, and when i point to a secular Jew who doesn't know what you claim is known, your argument fails.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Therefore secular Jews know nothing of the sort, at least not by untested assumption, and when i point to a secular Jew who doesn't know what you claim is known, your argument fails.

One would think that a person need not be the sharpest tool in the box to realize that if "secular Jews know Yeshua is Prince of Peace" they would not be "secular Jews."

 

[rosends]

One would think that a person need not be the sharpest tool in the box to realize that if "secular Jews know Yeshua is Prince of Peace" they would not be "secular Jews."

Maybe that just shows how unpersuasive Christianity is. All these secular Jews who are unfamiliar with Hezekiah are unconvinced even by what they "know" and don't follow Christianity.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That some, not all Jews (I'm Jewish) reject Messiah has nothing to do with my post--that even most Jews don't think Hezekiah is the Prince of Peace, rather, hundreds of millions of people worldwide think it's JESUS who fulfills the prophecy about the Prince of Peace.

What I actually wrote was: "And again, you have to hundreds, possibly thousands, of Tanakh verses, and make them not about Messiah, to avoid making Jesus the obvious Messiah.

Who is regarded worldwide as the Prince of Peace, for example? Secular Jews know it's Jesus Christ as regarded by the Gentiles, and most secular Jews don't know who King Hezekiah was!"

A very tiny percentage of Jews are Christian. Such Jews are considered apostates. They lose their rights as Jews, for example they may not testify in a Jewish court and may not be buried in a Jewish cemetery. But technically they are still Jews. Fortunately, such Jews are very rare.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Maybe that just shows how unpersuasive Christianity it. All these jews who are unfamiliar with Hezekiah are unconvinced even by what they "know" to follow Christianity.

I think that the first step should be to lead all these secular Jews thru Hezekiah's tunnel and have a big picnic at the other end.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Muslims don't see Jesus as the messiah..

Yes they do.
They believe that Jesus is the "Jewish Messiah", and that G-d, in His wisdom, ascended him to heaven, to return at a time appointed.
He will then free the world from evil, including "the Holy Land".
Evil is hypocrisy and greed, amongst other things..

 

[rosends]

Yes they do.
They believe that Jesus is the "Jewish Messiah", and that G-d, in His wisdom, ascended him to heaven, to return at a time appointed.
He will then free the world from evil, including "the Holy Land".
Evil is hypocrisy and greed, amongst other things..

fair enough -- I stand corrected. Muslims see Jesus as their understanding of the Jewish messiah but who was not crucified so he couldn't have played the role of vicarious atonement that Christians ascribe to him.

 

[muhammad_isa]

fair enough -- I stand corrected. Muslims see Jesus as their understanding of the Jewish messiah but who was not crucified so he couldn't have played the role of vicarious atonement that Christians ascribe to him.

Yes .. not trinitarian .. more like the so-called arians.
There were many Roman Emperors that were arians, but trinitarians pronounced arian belief "heresy", and waged war on them.
..not very "Christian like" was it.

Arians did not believe that Jesus is God.

 

[dybmh]

I find the concept in multiple areas in the TaNaKh.

Whether a new heart (Ezekiel 36:26), a new name (Genesis 32:28), the new beginning in the promised land (Joshua 4) , placing His Spirit in you (Ezekiel 37:14)

Maybe he was just bringing understanding of the same?

Hi Kenny, Thanks for your help. There's still something missing; can we look at it together?

We're talking about John 3. Specifically verses 3, 5, and 6.

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
​

I propose that these verses introduce new laws which did not exist in Tanach. I appreciate the verses you brought, but none of them speak about the "Kingdom of God". That's required, but missing. There's also no mention of being born of water. That's required and missing. Also, "Being born of The Spirit" is an important element. The Ezekiel quotes support an indwelling, but not birth.

 

[Kenny]

Hi Kenny, Thanks for your help. There's still something missing; can we look at it together?

We're talking about John 3. Specifically verses 3, 5, and 6.

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
​

I propose that these verses introduce new laws which did not exist in Tanach. I appreciate the verses you brought, but none of them speak about the "Kingdom of God". That's required, but missing. There's also no mention of being born of water. That's required and missing. Also, "Being born of The Spirit" is an important element. The Ezekiel quotes support an indwelling, but not birth.

Thanks... will look into that a little deeper.

 

[BilliardsBall]

OMG -- "regarded worldwide" mazal tov! First, being regarded world wide as something is a particularly mushy formulation. Note:

As of the year 2020, Christianity had approximately 2.3 billion adherents. According to a PEW estimation in 2020, Christians made up to 2.3 billion of the worldwide population of about 7.8 billion people. It represents nearly one-third of the world's population and is the largest religion in the world, ... [source]​

Obviously, if "nearly one-third of the world's population" is Christian, over two-thirds of the world's population is not.

More to the point, knowing for whom a characterization is used is simple social awareness and says absolutely nothing about whether the characterization is accurate or, for that matter, sensible. It does, however, tell us that the bloody Christian conquest has left its mark, albeit a mark that is fading with the Decline of Christianity in the Western world.

Gloating about the effectiveness of nearly two millennium of Christian marketing in a thread labelled "jewish" should surprise no one.

I see, 2.3 billion people--people around the world--understand Jesus is Prince of Peace.

A few Orthodox trying to redact the fact believe Hezekiah (who fought Syria in his day and whose grandchildren were judged to be put into diaspora by Babylon) is the Prince of Peace.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Then relying on secular Jews is not the best group to rely on.

No. If you look at a table of world populations, you will see that more people don't "know" that than supposedly do. Muslims don't see Jesus as the messiah. Other religions don't "know" Jesus as anything particularly peaceful, or a prince. And if you are claiming that most of the world knows it because it is in the Jewish bible, then would you make the same claim about all sorts of other prophecies in the jewish bible? Or is it because the prophecy is coopted by the Christian canon, in which case, it is, indeed by "some Christian writer."

Therefore secular Jews know nothing of the sort, at least not by untested assumption, and when i point to a secular Jew who doesn't know what you claim is known, your argument fails.

Huh? Billions of people know Jesus is the Prince of Peace.

Hezekiah was assualted by Syria and a handful of Orthodox are attempting to explain away the prophecy.

 

[BilliardsBall]

A very tiny percentage of Jews are Christian. Such Jews are considered apostates. They lose their rights as Jews, for example they may not testify in a Jewish court and may not be buried in a Jewish cemetery. But technically they are still Jews. Fortunately, such Jews are very rare.

Not very rare. I've met secret believers who fear people like yourself. Shame.