Jewish "trinity"?

[lilithu]

It's Pesach, so I don't expect a response to this soon, but thought I'd post it now while I am thinking about it. On monday evening I attended the 38th annual interfaith Seder at Georgetown, led by the rabbi in residence and sponsored by Temple B'nai Israel. This is an interfaith Seder at a Catholic university, so I expected the rabbi to make ties to Christianity; that's fine. But I was very surprised when he started talking about how the sabbath is divided into three parts - friday evening, saturday morning, and satruday evening - devoted to the three aspects of God within Judaism - God as creator, revealer, and redeemer, respectively. He then made the obvious connection between creator, revealer, and redeemer with the Christian trinity - Father, Holy Spirit, and Son. I've never heard of anything like this. My understanding is that Judaism is strictly monotheistic. And like I said, I expect there to be some attempt to relate Judaism in Christian terms, translating for the mostly Catholic/christian students. But this seemed like a stretch even in that context.

So I asked a Jewish student/rabbi in training (what is the equivalent of divinity school?) whether this was "kosher" () and he politely said that his views of Judaism were a little more traditional. And then I asked the rabbi himself and he said that he got these ideas from another rabbi who wrote a book on it, the names of both I promptly forgot as I continued talking with Rabbi White. But anyway this other rabbi in this other book postulated that the star of David is actually two triangles (not new - heard that in Qabbalah), one of which represents the Jewish view of God (creator, revealer, redeemer) and the other triangle represents the Christian trinity (Father, Holy Spirit, Son) (that's new ) and that Christianity is bascially the messianic arm of Judaism. :faint:

Anyone else here ever heard of this? If so, I would love to get the name of the rabbi and the book. And either way, what do you think of this? I am espcially interested to know if other Jews view God and the sabbath in this tripartate way.

 

[jewscout]

i've never heard of something like that and IMPO i think to make such a connection between Judaism's view of G-d and a trinitarian view of G-d is a little dangerous for my tastes.

i too share a more traditional view of G-d, and though He has many aspects that make themselves revealed, to say that G-d is made up of "parts" is not exactly traditional judaism.

 

[lilithu]

i've never heard of something like that and IMPO i think to make such a connection between Judaism's view of G-d and a trinitarian view of G-d is a little dangerous for my tastes.

i too share a more traditional view of G-d, and though He has many aspects that make themselves revealed, to say that G-d is made up of "parts" is not exactly traditional judaism.

To be fair, I am the one who used the word "tripartate" here. Me thinks he said three aspects of God. But it is still something that I've never heard before.

***ADDENDUM***:
I found the book.
Star of Redemption (1912), by Franz Rosenzweig. I'm going to get and read it, so I'll let yall know.

 

[jewscout]

To be fair, I am the one who used the word "tripartate" here. Me thinks he said three aspects of God. But it is still something that I've never heard before.

nor have i, and i doubt you'll be hard pressed to find it again.

 

[Quiddity]

I slightly came across something like this years back. I too am curious about the traditional Judaic view of this.

 

[lilithu]

i've never heard of something like that and IMPO i think to make such a connection between Judaism's view of G-d and a trinitarian view of G-d is a little dangerous for my tastes.

i too share a more traditional view of G-d, and though He has many aspects that make themselves revealed, to say that G-d is made up of "parts" is not exactly traditional judaism.

Jewscout (or anyone else who observes the sabbath),

1) is the sabbath celebrated in three distinct parts?

2) is there a different emphasis in each part?

 

[jewscout]

1. G-d is a unity. He is a single, whole, complete indivisible entity. He cannot be divided into parts or described by attributes. Any attempt to ascribe attributes to G-d is merely man's imperfect attempt to understand the infinite.

http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm

Shema Yisrael HaShem, Elohaynu, HaShem Echad
Hear Oh Israel, the Lord is G-d the Lord is One.
Deut. 6:4

 

[jewscout]

Jewscout (or anyone else who observes the sabbath),

1) is the sabbath celebrated in three distinct parts?

2) is there a different emphasis in each part?

hmmm well i'm not shomer shabbas, meaning complete observance of sabbath law, but i try to be a close to it as i can.

well there are three MEALS on shabbat, i don't know that there are different emphasises on each, i've never known there to be, but i could be wrong.

 

[Quiddity]

1. G-d is a unity. He is a single, whole, complete indivisible entity. He cannot be divided into parts or described by attributes. Any attempt to ascribe attributes to G-d is merely man's imperfect attempt to understand the infinite.

http://www.jewfaq.org/g-d.htm

Shema Yisrael HaShem, Elohaynu, HaShem Echad
Hear Oh Israel, the Lord is G-d the Lord is One.
Deut. 6:4

But isn't ascribing attributes all we can do as imperfect and limited beings? Or am I misunderstanding?

 

[jewscout]

But isn't ascribing attributes all we can do as imperfect and limited beings? Or am I misunderstanding?

correct, we attach human qualities to the different aspects of G-d but they are in no way parts nor a true reflection of Him, simply our attempts at grasping the infinite.

 

[evearael]

Here is a good source about the author:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Rosenzweig.html
He almost converted to Christianity at one point in his life, and had a fascination with Jesus as a historical person.

 

[Quiddity]

correct, we attach human qualities to the different aspects of G-d but they are in no way parts nor a true reflection of Him, simply our attempts at grasping the infinite.

Then how can any qualities attached be true? You can't even say He is a whole for that matter. Right?

BTW, as a side note, I do not see God as unconnected parts.

 

[jewscout]

Then how can any qualities attached be true? You can't even say He is a whole for that matter. Right?

BTW, as a side note, I do not see God as unconnected parts.

it is simply our interpretation of His actions...are they acts of Kindness, Justice, Redemption...etc.


Judaism says He is One, united and whole in a way beyond our comprehension, as that is the beginning of the central statement of faith, the Shema.

to say that G-d is made up of parts, regardless of their level of interconnectedness, is outside the realm of traditional views of Judaism.
http://www.ou.org/torah/rambam.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_principles_of_faith#God_is_One

 

[lilithu]

Here is a good source about the author:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Rosenzweig.html
He almost converted to Christianity at one point in his life, and had a fascination with Jesus as a historical person.

Yeah, I'm thinking that he is reinterpreting Judaism through a Christian lens, which I personally don't like. And I think the Georgetown Rabbi took it a step even further, but wanted to see what people here thought. I love finding commonalities between religions, but not at the expense of the integrity of each religion.

 

[Avi]

Jewscout, there are only two "meals." The Friday dinner and the Saturday lunch. The Saturday breakfast isn't typically eaten with two loaves of challah; usually only a bagel or fruit, since the men need to get to shul somewhat early in the morning.

Also Jewscout, and again, I don't mean to sound like a prude, but the Shema isn't supposed to be recited or written by anybody except the Jew.

Maybe, the Rabbi at the innerfaith seder (which isn't traditional whatsoever) was trying to bring Christianity and Judaism together in terms and connections between the two faiths. From my experience, and my limited knowledge of halakha, a Gentile CANNOT be invited to a seder, but if they happen to "drop in," the Gentile shouldn't be refused. The Jewish host musn't prepare anything special for the Gentile as well; Gentiles only can partake in a communal pot of food such as soup or challah. To put it simply, Pesach is exclusively a Jewish holiday in remembrance of the Jewish exodus out of Egypt. The food is supposed to be for Jews only, and that is why a host cannot prepare anything especially for the Gentile, such as water for tea or an extra potato, etc.

The three aspects described by the Rabbi seems to be contribed for the purpose of connecting it to the Christian trinity. In the way the Christian treat their trinity, through several spiritual and interwoven relationships, the Jews are hardline in their affirmation of HaShem Echad (The One G-d). Even in the attempt of trying to assign the responsibilities and benevolent actions of G-d, many traditional Jews consider that chillul haShem (cursing the name in loose translation).

 

[Quiddity]

it is simply our interpretation of His actions...are they acts of Kindness, Justice, Redemption...etc.


Judaism says He is One, united and whole in a way beyond our comprehension, as that is the beginning of the central statement of faith, the Shema.

to say that G-d is made up of parts, regardless of their level of interconnectedness, is outside the realm of traditional views of Judaism.
http://www.ou.org/torah/rambam.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_principles_of_faith#God_is_One

It's quite clear to me that it's outside of traditional Judaism. But I'm not fully grasping our differences quite yet. Deffinately something to look into. Gracias...

 

[jewscout]

ummm Avi i think you been missing out...there is a third meal, usually something light
http://www.aish.com/shabbathowto/shabbatday/Shabbat_Afternoon_and_Third_Meal.asp

Also Jewscout, and again, I don't mean to sound like a prude, but the Shema isn't supposed to be recited or written by anybody except the Jew

hmmm that's a new one on me.

From my experience, and my limited knowledge of halakha, a Gentile CANNOT be invited to a seder, but if they happen to "drop in," the Gentile shouldn't be refused.

from what i know it has nothing to do w/ the seder but the korban pesach, which gentiles could not eat from.
here's another reasoning for why you shoulding invite Gentiles...but i don't like it, i don't think it's a good one...
http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=169&o=1968311

personally i don't understand why not, if you're supposed to be a nation of priests and a light unto the world, how can you do that if you can't have someone over for a meal??:sarcastic

 

[lilithu]

From my experience, and my limited knowledge of halakha, a Gentile CANNOT be invited to a seder, but if they happen to "drop in," the Gentile shouldn't be refused. The Jewish host musn't prepare anything special for the Gentile as well; Gentiles only can partake in a communal pot of food such as soup or challah. To put it simply, Pesach is exclusively a Jewish holiday in remembrance of the Jewish exodus out of Egypt. The food is supposed to be for Jews only, and that is why a host cannot prepare anything especially for the Gentile, such as water for tea or an extra potato, etc.

I've been invited to Seders all my life from highschool onwards and no one has ever said that. In fact, I was told that Seders are about community and the welcoming of strangers and those in need. Just as you open the door for Elijah you open the door to guests. Just as God provided for His children in the desert, so His children provide for anyone.

 

[jewscout]

Also Jewscout, and again, I don't mean to sound like a prude, but the Shema isn't supposed to be recited or written by anybody except the Jew.

you know i just thought of something...
if that's the case i've been screwing that up for a long time...even in the presense of Black Hats...

where did you hear this from Avi, if you don't mind me asking?:help:

 

[Avi]

I heard that from another Orthodox Jew. I had said it, and he admonished me not to do it again.

I'll get it clarified by my Rabbi, though.

Friday Dinner, Saturday Lunch, and Saturday Light Dinner. I am mistaken, I apologize. I had thought I read somewhere that there were only two meals. Thank you, Jewscout for informing me.