Jesus vs Paul (salvation doctrine)

[Theodore A. Jones]

Still waiting for a debate.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." ROM. 2:13 Either obey the law he is referencing or pay hell if you refuse. There are no exceptions.
That's the topic.

 

[Simplelogic]

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." ROM. 2:13 Either obey the law he is referencing or pay hell if you refuse. There are no exceptions.
That's the topic.

Now we are talking. You finally have thrown something out there.

Are you suggesting that Paul is talking about the law of Moses here? Because the context proves otherwise:

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Romans 2: 12-16

Paul's definition of "the law" was ones personal conscience. He also calls this law "the law of Christ". It is not the Law of Moses but some superior form of law where man can chose in his heart was is right or wrong.

 

[Simplelogic]

just look at chapter 3:

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3: 20

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Now we are talking. You finally have thrown something out there.

Are you suggesting that Paul is talking about the law of Moses here? Because the context proves otherwise:

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Romans 2: 12-16

Paul's definition of "the law" was ones personal conscience. He also calls this law "the law of Christ". It is not the Law of Moses but some superior form of law where man can chose in his heart was is right or wrong.

Paul is not referencing OT code, but he is referencing a word that is also LAW. With a law in place you are completely cut off from making any judgment about what is right and what is wrong. Your conjecture is the second most illogical and egregious departure from sound reasoning that has been made. The first is " Did God really say?"

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Come on Unitarian. Get with it.

 

[Simplelogic]

Paul is not referencing OT code, but he is referencing a word that is also LAW. With a law in place you are completely cut off from making any judgment about what is right and what is wrong. Your conjecture is the second most illogical and egregious departure from sound reasoning that has been made. The first is " Did God really say?"

I'm glad you admit this. Obviously this is completely contrary to Yeshua who taught that the whole Law of Moses was to remain until "heaven and earth pass away".

Case closed.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

I'm glad you admit this. Obviously this is completely contrary to Yeshua who taught that the whole Law of Moses was to remain until "heaven and earth pass away".

Case closed.

Did not imply nor say that the OT code of law has been abolished nor does Paul or Jesus Christ. But you've already admitted that Paul is not referencing the OT code in Rm. 2:13.

 

[Simplelogic]

Did not imply nor say that the OT code of law has been abolished nor does Paul or Jesus Christ. But you've already admitted that Paul is not referencing the OT code in Rm. 2:13.

Yes…Paul is upholding his own concept of law in Rom 2. Paul is clear in all of his letters that the Law of Moses is abolished:

Paul is blunt in Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, 2 Cor. 3:11-17, Romans 7:1-3 et seq, and Galatians 3:19 et seq. The Law is "abolished," "done away with," "nailed to a tree," "has faded away,' and was "only ordained by angels...who are no gods." If we were to cite Paul's condemnations of the Law in one string, the point is self-evident that Paul abrogated the Law for everyone. See Eph. 2:15 ("setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations"); Col. 2:14 ("having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;") 2 Cor. 3:14 ("old covenant"); Gal. 5:1 ("yoke of bondage"); Rom. 10:4 ("Christ is the end of the law"); 2 Cor. 3:7 ("law of death"); Gal. 5:1 ("entangles"); Col. 2:14-17 ("a shadow"); Rom. 3:27 ("law of works"); Rom. 4:15 ("works wrath"); 2 Cor. 3:9(ministration of condemnation); Gal. 2:16 ("cannot justify"); Gal. 3:21 (cannot give life); Col. 2:14 ("wiped out" exaleipsas); Gal. 3:19, 4:8-9 ("given by angels...who are no gods [and are] weak and beggarly celestial beings/elements").

Finally, in Romans 7:1-6, Paul claims when Jesus died, the husband died and this dissolved the Law's bonds between the husband (God of Sinai) and wife (God's people). This henceforth made the "law dead to us." (Romans 7:4.) This death-of-God-the-husband released the Jews, Paul contends, and when Christ resurrected the bonds of marriage with the old God were not renewed. (The implication, we contend, was Paul meant a new God emerges or otherwise if the same husband-God resurrected, why wasn't the bond to the Law renewed? Paulinists come near to admitting this is the only logical meaning while even confessing they are uncomfortable with the passage's 'seemingly' polytheistic explanation... Uggh.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

You have alleged that the law of context, if known and used by the interpreter , that interpreter's elucidation is not in error. The conjecture you've stated about Eph.2:15 was formed only by not using the law of context. Regarding that this is a debate and you have chosen the law of context as the rules of interpretation by your own volition you will have to restat your defective interpretation by showing that the rule of context has not been violated.

 

[Simplelogic]

You have alleged that the law of context, if known and used by the interpreter , that interpreter's elucidation is not in error. The conjecture you've stated about Eph.2:15 was formed only by not using the law of context. Regarding that this is a debate and you have chosen the law of context as the rules of interpretation by your own volition you will have to restat your defective interpretation by showing that the rule of context has not been violated.

You are going to have to dumb this all down. I'm just a simple guy who gets intimidated by big words!

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

You are going to have to dumb this all down. I'm just a simple guy who gets intimidated by big words!

Good l'll use more big words.

 

[Muffled]

"Jesus: The one who repents from sin is “justified.” (Parable of the Publi- can and the Pharisee. Luke 18:10- 14.) Th son who was dead but now repents is “alive again” (born again). (Parable of the Prodigal Son, Luke 15:1-32, viz. v. 24.)

Paul: One is not justified nor born again by repentance from sin, but by faith alone. (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:4.) Any such addition to Paul’s salvation by faith alone doctrine is the heresy of “works salvation.” (Wilkin, Stanley, Hodge.)"

I believe one does not repent without faith. When I repented I did so because I had faith that God's way would be better than my way.

If one has faith in the saving grace of Jesus, one must first recognize a need to be saved. Just because it isn't stated doesn't mean that Pau is against it.

Paul speaking in Acts 26:19 Wherefore, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 but declared both to them of Damascus first and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judaea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.

 

[Muffled]

You misunderstand what Paul says, as do many other teachers.

Jesus taught that we have to repent before being saved, and the Apostle Paul does too!

Read these scriptures as said by PAUL:

Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Acts 17:30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,

Acts 8:22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart.

Did you read them?

Paul preached for us to REPENT then be saved.

Paul was speaking about ALL THE MANY CEREMONIAL WORKS as being the works we no longer have to do!

Paul was NOT preaching that all we have to do is believe AND NOT OBEY! That is ludicrous. Paul would not ever teach such a thing.

Men misunderstand what Paul says about no works. Paul is speaking about no works such as circumcision, and other works of the Old Testament Law, like the dietary laws, the various external washings, the observance of special days; those are the CEREMONIAL WORKS OF THE LAW. The Jews had to do those things JUST TO WORSHIP GOD. No one has to do those things anymore, because through faith in Jesus’ blood makes us clean. The Jews had to work at making THEMSELVES clean to have a relationship with God, but God nailed those works to the cross. We do not have to do those things to be made clean before God; Jesus makes us clean before God. God did not nail repenting, confessing, and stop sinning to the cross. We have to believe and obey God. We have to repent, confess, and stop sinning.

Amen! brother Christian.