Jesus vs Paul (salvation doctrine)

[Yes]

I meant to say that there are no divisions in the Torah. You can't separate the ceremonial laws from the rest of the commands. BTW....dietary laws had nothing to do with any ceremony.

The ceremonial laws were teaching tools about Jesus. They were a shadow about Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the old law.

 

[Yes]

The dietary laws were about the Jews keeping themselves 'clean', just to worship God. The dietary laws were about keeping oneself from the influence of other nationalities.

 

[Simplelogic]

The ceremonial laws were teaching tools about Jesus. They were a shadow about Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the old law.

Did Yeshua say that?

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:9

Looks like he said the opposite.

 

[Simplelogic]

The dietary laws were about the Jews keeping themselves 'clean', just to worship God. The dietary laws were about keeping oneself from the influence of other nationalities.

They were for Israel and any gentile who was added to the covenant. And yes, true Israelites are still meant to keep themselves from following the ways of the nations…still!!

 

[Yes]

Did Yeshua say that?

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5:9

Looks like he said the opposite.

Of course, God gave the commands.

 

[Yes]

They were for Israel and any gentile who was added to the covenant. And yes, true Israelites are still meant to keep themselves from following the ways of the nations…still!!

Jesus fulfilled those rituals.
It is nothing anymore to observe days, and to be circumcised in the flesh.

It is everything to observe Jesus.

 

[Kolibri]

So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them." But Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord. This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:7-9

For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord will give grace and glory; no good thing will He withhold from those who walk uprightly. Psalm 84:11

This is the problem with using an English word that has 14 different meanings. What does the Greek word kha'ris have to do with these Hebrew Scriptures? Perhaps the grace here is using another of the 14 meanings.

"So Jehovah said: 'I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, man together with domestic animals, and flying creatures of the heavens, for I regret that I have made them.' But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah. This is the history of Noah. Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless (or "blameless.") among his contemporaries. (Lit., "his generations.") Noah walked with the true God." - Ge 6:7-9

"For Jehovah God is a sun and a shield; He gives favor and glory. Jehovah will not hold back anything good From those walking in integrity." - Psalm 84:11

 

[Kolibri]

False…God's favor and grace are merited

Favor may be merited but life is not. We were still under condemnation to sin and death till Jehovah provided a legal means to extend our life potential back to what was intended. We did not deserve life.

The Israelites were also under the curse portion of the Law from not physically being able to keep it. The animal sacrifices granted a legal means to provide forbearance as long as they were not serving other gods and were keeping to his way to the best they reasonably could.

As the Israelites were instructed to only bring their best to Jehovah, Jehovah foreshadowed what he would do to: Jehovah sacrificed his best to release us from legally binding condemnation(s).

 

[Simplelogic]

This is the problem with using an English word that has 14 different meanings. What does the Greek word kha'ris have to do with these Hebrew Scriptures? Perhaps the grace here is using another of the 14 meanings.

"So Jehovah said: 'I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, man together with domestic animals, and flying creatures of the heavens, for I regret that I have made them.' But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah. This is the history of Noah. Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless (or "blameless.") among his contemporaries. (Lit., "his generations.") Noah walked with the true God." - Ge 6:7-9

"For Jehovah God is a sun and a shield; He gives favor and glory. Jehovah will not hold back anything good From those walking in integrity." - Psalm 84:11

semantics. You can use any word you want to use. Grace, mercy, favor…it doesn't matter. It is all earned.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

I just explained it to you!

Please, listen carefully.

The WORKS Paul was speaking about that we do not have to do---those works are the CEREMONIAL WORKS the Jews used to have to do just to worship God.

We do not have to do the ceremonial works anymore.

That is what Paul is saying.

For hundreds of years the Jews and Gentiles were SEPARATED because of the CEREMONIAL WORKS.

The Jews were not DEAD in their sins as the Gentiles were.

The Jews were not UNCLEAN people as the Gentiles were, BECAUSE THE JEWS HAD THE WORKS OF THE LAW, the JEWS HAD THE CEREMONIAL WORKS to make them clean, to make them justified before God.

Paul is explaining that no one has to do THOSE works anymore.

Pardon me, friend, I see that you classify your beliefs as Christian. But there are forty to fifty thousand 'christian' sects currently identified. Would you be so kind and quantify which of those sects you might be affiliated with or is it none of them?
I've read several of your posts and admire your arguments and defense of them, but I also note quite a bit of misinformation in your opinion. "The Jews were not DEAD in their sins as the Gentiles were." (sic) To me that statement is not congruent with Rom. 2:29 or 3:10-18. If a gentile can be saved by the soteriological procedure Paul advocates it is the same for the Jew. Regarding that there is a gate into God's kingdom that only a few ever find, but not gates. For God is not a respecter of persons.

 

[Yes]

Pardon me, friend, I see that you classify your beliefs as Christian. But there are forty to fifty thousand 'christian' sects currently identified. Would you be so kind and quantify which of those sects you might be affiliated with or is it none of them?
I've read several of your posts and admire your arguments and defense of them, but I also note quite a bit of misinformation in your opinion. "The Jews were not DEAD in their sins as the Gentiles were." (sic) To me that statement is not congruent with Rom. 2:29 or 3:10-18. If a gentile can be saved by the soteriological procedure Paul advocates it is the same for the Jew. Regarding that there is a gate into God's kingdom that only a few ever find, but not gates. For God is not a respecter of persons.

The Jews were not dead in their sins as the Gentiles were. The Gentiles were dead in their sins because they did not have circumcision, and the other ceremonial works to deal with their sins..

Read this scripture:

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

See, Paul is explaining that the Gentiles who did not obey the ceremonial works of the old law were dead in the UNcircumcision of their flesh. The Gentiles were called the UNCLEAN people. The Jews had the many ceremonial works to make themselves clean, just to worship God. Jesus gives them rest, for they do not have to do all those works anymore just to worship God...they only have to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans them.
The unclean Gentiles who were dead in their sins...they were EXCLUDED and without God in the world. They were enemies of God because they did not obey the ceremonial works of the law.

However, even Gentiles can be made clean. They are those who were far off, but now brought near by Jesus' blood.

Jesus did not make them (Gentiles) get circumcised in the flesh first before he saved them, for we are made clean by faith in his blood.

Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

semantics. You can use any word you want to use. Grace, mercy, favor…it doesn't matter. It is all earned.

The Jews were not dead in their sins as the Gentiles were. The Gentiles were dead in their sins because they did not have circumcision, and the other ceremonial works to deal with their sins..

Read this scripture:

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

See, Paul is explaining that the Gentiles who did not obey the ceremonial works of the old law were dead in the UNcircumcision of their flesh. The Gentiles were called the UNCLEAN people. The Jews had the many ceremonial works to make themselves clean, just to worship God. Jesus gives them rest, for they do not have to do all those works anymore just to worship God...they only have to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans them.
The unclean Gentiles who were dead in their sins...they were EXCLUDED and without God in the world. They were enemies of God because they did not obey the ceremonial works of the law.

However, even Gentiles can be made clean. They are those who were far off, but now brought near by Jesus' blood.

Jesus did not make them (Gentiles) get circumcised in the flesh first before he saved them, for we are made clean by faith in his blood.

Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

God ONLY made them alive in Christ because of them having the faith to obey the law HE authored and put into effect through angles. Rom. 2:13

 

[Yes]

God ONLY mad them alive in Christ because of them having the faith to obey the law HE authored and put into effect through angles. Rom. 2:13

What do you think that you have disproved?

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

What do you think that you have disproved?

What do you think that you have disproved?

'Yes' does not acknowledge the fact stated in Heb. 7:12. The law was changed AFTER the sin of Jesus Christ's murder by adding a word. It is this law which must be obeyed or not be made alive in Christ. "Yes" is assuming that Jews by obedience of the Sinai code and the ceremonial law he listed and referenced are alive in Christ. Yes is a not recognizing the fact that the act of crucifying Jesus Christ was the sin of first degree murder and a total corporate infraction of the Sinai code.
Is there some misapprehension difficulty you are still having?

 

[Desert Snake]

The ceremonial laws were teaching tools about Jesus. They were a shadow about Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the old law.

Am I the only one who read that incorrectly the first time?

 

[Kolibri]

It was murder but it was also voluntarily submitted to.

"Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than 12 legions of angels?" - Mt 26:53

 

[Yes]

'Yes' does not acknowledge the fact stated in Heb. 7:12. The law was changed AFTER the sin of Jesus Christ's murder by adding a word. It is this law which must be obeyed or not be made alive in Christ. "Yes" is assuming that Jews by obedience of the Sinai code and the ceremonial law he listed and referenced are alive in Christ. Yes is a not recognizing the fact that the act of crucifying Jesus Christ was the sin of first degree murder and a total corporate infraction of the Sinai code.
Is there some misapprehension difficulty you are still having?

I have no idea what you are trying to say, and you need to stop telling people what you think I believe. You do not even make sense when you try to explain your beliefs. Don't try to explain to others what I believe.
Quote me where I say what you claim.

 

[Desert Snake]

The Jews were not dead in their sins as the Gentiles were. The Gentiles were dead in their sins because they did not have circumcision, and the other ceremonial works to deal with their sins..

Read this scripture:

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

See, Paul is explaining that the Gentiles who did not obey the ceremonial works of the old law were dead in the UNcircumcision of their flesh. The Gentiles were called the UNCLEAN people. The Jews had the many ceremonial works to make themselves clean, just to worship God. Jesus gives them rest, for they do not have to do all those works anymore just to worship God...they only have to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans them.
The unclean Gentiles who were dead in their sins...they were EXCLUDED and without God in the world. They were enemies of God because they did not obey the ceremonial works of the law.

However, even Gentiles can be made clean. They are those who were far off, but now brought near by Jesus' blood.

Jesus did not make them (Gentiles) get circumcised in the flesh first before he saved them, for we are made clean by faith in his blood.

Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Whaa? Circumcision was a inferior method of law adherence. That's why it was never required. Christian belief adherence to Jesus didn't ""replace" physical circumcision, it's a totally different concept. apples & oranges.

Jesus said, the only way to know the father was through Him. Not, the only way for gentiles to know the father is to replace physical circumcision with adherence to Him.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

I have no idea what you are trying to say, and you need to stop telling people what you think I believe. You do not even make sense when you try to explain your beliefs. Don't try to explain to others what I believe.
Quote me where I say what you claim.

Other people read your posts too. And I do know what you believe and it ain't 'Kosher' when subjected to what is written in the scriptures. Besides it is you who has voluntarily posted your defective beliefs in forum of debate.
The adage is "If you can't stand the heat git outta da kitchen."

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Whaa? Circumcision was a inferior method of law adherence. That's why it was never required. Christian belief adherence to Jesus didn't ""replace" physical circumcision, it's a totally different concept. apples & oranges.

Jesus said, the only way to know the father was through Him. Not, the only way for gentiles to know the father is to replace physical circumcision with adherence to Him.

PCA pastors teach the nonsense you are railing against BTW. Good job you are doing. I need all the help I can get.