Jesus vs Paul (eating idol meat)

[Simplelogic]

More of Paul's pagan quotes:

We are indeed His Offspring' and "in thee we live and move and have our being"
Aratus : "for we are indeed his offspring." (Aratus, Phenomenae / Phainomena 1-5)

Epimenides (6th Century BC): "for in thee we live and move and have our being." (About Zeus)

Acts 17:28 - Paul teaches: "For in him we live, and move, and have our being as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

'Cretans Are Always Liars'
Epimenides "the Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies...." (Epimenides, Cretica -- a poem scolding the Cretans for making a tomb to Zeus because Epimenides believed Zeus to be eternal.)

Titus 1:12 "One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own said, The Cretans [are] always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies...."

First learn Piety at Home
Publius Terentius Afer (Terence) (Latin comedy writer) 190 BC: "But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to show piety at home." (Andria Act IV -- at this link pp 34-44.)

1 Tim 5:4 "But if any widow have children or nephews let them learn first to show piety at home"

 

[sincerly]

The scripture quoted above is an interesting one. Paul claims that "Jesus" said "its hard for you to kick against the pricks". Yet this phrase has its origins in pagan philosophers. This means Paul's quote of Jesus has him uttering a common pagan phrase….hmmm.

Euripides : "kicks against the pricks" (Euripides, Bacchae.)

Aeschylus:. "kicks against the pricks." (Aeschylus, Agamemnon 1624.)

Acts 26:13 "kicks against the pricks" (Luke quoting Paul's vision account)

Note on Euripides: The context is that Dionysus discards his divine nature and walks in the human world disguised…Dionysus, the god disguised in human form, tells him that his efforts to resist the new movement will be completely worthless; he is not contending against flesh and blood, but against a god. “You are mortal, he is a god. If I were you, I would control my rage and sacrifice to him, rather than kick against the pricks” [From Euripides, The Bacchae].

SL, Nothing you have posted diminishes the principle expressed. Gamaliel made a similar statement as Jesus.
Acts 5:34-39, "And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

 

[sincerly]

More of Paul's pagan quotes:

We are indeed His Offspring' and "in thee we live and move and have our being"
Aratus : "for we are indeed his offspring." (Aratus, Phenomenae / Phainomena 1-5)

Epimenides (6th Century BC): "for in thee we live and move and have our being." (About Zeus)

Acts 17:28 - Paul teaches: "For in him we live, and move, and have our being as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

'Cretans Are Always Liars'
Epimenides "the Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies...." (Epimenides, Cretica -- a poem scolding the Cretans for making a tomb to Zeus because Epimenides believed Zeus to be eternal.)

Titus 1:12 "One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own said, The Cretans [are] always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies...."

First learn Piety at Home
Publius Terentius Afer (Terence) (Latin comedy writer) 190 BC: "But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to show piety at home." (Andria Act IV -- at this link pp 34-44.)

1 Tim 5:4 "But if any widow have children or nephews let them learn first to show piety at home"

Paul gained some by quoting their own gods truths in principles. However, with the spreading over the world from the Ark(some 2500BC) (and those all were aware of the principles given by GOD), why is it dismissed that those who dismissed some of GOD'S Principles wouldn't retain some of the good which they were aware concerning the right principles?
When Paul arrived in Corinth, his testimony was,1Cor.2:2, "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

SL, The principles expressed in those verses do nothing to lessen Paul"s teachings of the truths of GOD'S Salvation message. All of mankind is being sought for that "Kingdom of GOD to come".

 

[Simplelogic]

Paul gained some by quoting their own gods truths in principles. However, with the spreading over the world from the Ark(some 2500BC) (and those all were aware of the principles given by GOD), why is it dismissed that those who dismissed some of GOD'S Principles wouldn't retain some of the good which they were aware concerning the right principles?
When Paul arrived in Corinth, his testimony was,1Cor.2:2, "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

SL, The principles expressed in those verses do nothing to lessen Paul"s teachings of the truths of GOD'S Salvation message. All of mankind is being sought for that "Kingdom of GOD to come".

Ok…lets look at the Paul's pagan reference in Titus 1:

12One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13This testimony is true. Titus 1:12-13

Are you kidding me?? You are saying that Paul was right to reference this pagan "prophet" who accused ALL Cretans of being liars, evil beasts and lazy gluttons!!! Not only that, Paul agrees with this lousy prophet! Paul too confirms that ALL Cretans are liars. What a joke.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
sincerly said: ↑
FB, The sacrifice was to pay the sin price which all of mankind is subject to---Death. It was the LAW of GOD which demanded the Sacrifice.
Since mankind could NOT pay that death penalty and live. Jesus Christ in HIS LOVE offered to die for all who would repent of sinning and submit their will in obedience to the WILL of GOD.
Those animal sacrifices to Idols was a counterfeit and in place of the worship which is due only to the Creator GOD.



FB, the Scriptures declared that SIN is Disobedience and the penalty is/was death. The Scriptures declare that Created Mankind would have continued to live and not see/endure death had the created pair continued in obedience.
Yes, today, since mankind chose to be disobedient, death is inevitable.

GOD Never "demanded" that there be a human sacrifice. And it is impossible for one sinful human to pay the death penalty for another human being. ALL humans are under the same death penalty.
Therefore, the free LOVE offering of GOD.
John 3:16-17, "
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
That Propitiation(sacrifice) was all who in faithful repenting and submitting to GOD'S Will chooses to have GOD as their GOD.

Matt,16:21 , "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day."
John 18:37, "Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."

You are reading Paul into Yeshua.

Yeshua NEVER taught any faith alone logic. The word "pistis" which you have translated as "believe" is a faulty translation. Pistis is more accurately translated as trusts/obeys.

SL, You are reading Jesus out of those texts. It was Jesus who was telling Nicodemus that it was necessary to believe Jesus' sacrifice. and the being given life (new birth) by HIS shed blood.
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

That "believeth" is the Greek=pisteuo which has these biblical usages
""Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   
   1. of the thing believed
      
      1. to credit, have confidence
         
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
         
         
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
         
         
      3. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
         
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   
   to be intrusted with a thing"""

SL, such "belief" is saving Faith.

It is your reasoning which is false. Jesus came to seek and save lost sinners(persons). Jesus was specific when HE told HIS Disciples He was to be killed--- hung upon the tree.
You do remember the incident of the "fiery serpents"?

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
Paul gained some by quoting their own gods truths in principles. However, with the spreading over the world from the Ark(some 2500BC) (and those all were aware of the principles given by GOD), why is it dismissed that those who dismissed some of GOD'S Principles wouldn't retain some of the good which they were aware concerning the right principles?
When Paul arrived in Corinth, his testimony was,1Cor.2:2, "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

SL, The principles expressed in those verses do nothing to lessen Paul"s teachings of the truths of GOD'S Salvation message. All of mankind is being sought for that "Kingdom of GOD to come".
Click to expand...

Ok…lets look at the Paul's pagan reference in Titus 1:

12One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13This testimony is true. Titus 1:12-13

Are you kidding me?? You are saying that Paul was right to reference this pagan "prophet" who accused ALL Cretans of being liars, evil beasts and lazy gluttons!!! Not only that, Paul agrees with this lousy prophet! Paul too confirms that ALL Cretans are liars. What a joke.

Do You want to say Jesus was wrong? John 8:44, 55, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it....
Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying."

"lousy prophet"?? Because Paul had knowledge of Cretans and Faith in the Creator GOD he served?

You are overlooking the Fact that Paul was writing this from Rome to Titus whom Paul had left in Crete as the Bishop of that church---therefore, the "all"(in/on Crete) would not include the Believers of GOD.
Also, ignoring the fact of vss,15-16. "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

 

[Simplelogic]

You can't define words by strongs. It is simply a reference tool.

"The most exhaustive dictionary of ancient Greek is Liddell-Scott’s Lexicon. It is by far the most reliable.

There are six meanings offered in Liddell-Scott’s Lexicon of the Greek verb pisteuo at issue in John 3:16.7

One meaning in Liddell-Scott for the verb pisteuo is comply. A synonym is obey. The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament

Words (Zondervan: 2000) has this likewise to say of pisteuo:



"Similarly, pisteuo means to trust something or someone; it can refer to and confirm legendary tales and mythical ideas. With reference to people, pisteuo means to obey; the pass[ive] Means to enjoy trust... "

Now lets look at a few more passages which confirm this rendering:

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good [things], unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil [things], unto the resurrection of damnation. (John5:28-29 KJV)

Happy [are] the ones doing His commandments, so that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter by the gates into the city. (Rev 22:14)

And to the angel of the assembly in Sardis write: ‘These [things] says the One having the seven spirits of God and the seven stars [i.e., Jesus is speaking]: I know your works, that you have a name that you live, and you are dead. (2) ‘Become watching [fig., Wake up], and strengthen the rest which you were about to be throwing out, for I have not found your works having been completed before My God. (3) Therefore, be remembering how you have received, and be keeping [it [tereo, obey], and repent. Therefore, if you will not watch, I will come upon you like a thief, and you shall by no means know what hour I will come upon you.” (Rev 3:1-3 ALT.)

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. (16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. (Rev 3:15-16 KJV.)

He that loveth his life loseth it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. (26) If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will the Father honor. (John 12:25-26 ASV.)"

http://jesuswordsonly.com/images/stories/Salvation/John 3 16.pdf

 

[Simplelogic]

Its important that we don't isolate Yeshua's words. His clear and consistent theme was repentance from evil works to good works. Trying to read Paul's definition of "mental assent" belief into Yeshua words is blasphemous imho. Paul most certainly DID teach a "one time" belief concept. He even used a different tense when using the word "pisteuo" to emphasize this point.

Yeshua and Paul are diametrically opposed to each other in every way.

 

[Simplelogic]

"Now let's look at Scripture and take notice of whom God deems most worthy of His benefits of grace, and mercy. Let's start with Noah.

So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them." But Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord. This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:7-9

Then the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, BECAUSE I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. Genesis 7:1

No one else on earth found grace or mercy from God except one man and his family because he was "just" and "righteous"! Contrary to Paul's doctrine, becoming a beneficiary of God's grace has everything to do with works. Grace and works are not mutually exclusive. They are inextricably connected to one another. There is more.

For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord will give grace and glory; no good thing will He withhold from those who walk uprightly. Psalm 84:11

For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20: 5,6

But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children, to such as keep His covenant, and to those who remember His commandments to do them. Psalm 103 17-18"

The Law stands

 

[Harikrish]

PAUL vs. JESUS
A List of Contradictory and Incompatible Statements

Paul Contradicts Jesus

 

[Simplelogic]

PAUL vs. JESUS
A List of Contradictory and Incompatible Statements

Paul Contradicts Jesus

Another good one:

http://jesuswordsonly.com/images/stories/JWOBook/Paul pamphlet-final2011.pdf

 

[Harikrish]

Paul claimed his authority came straight from Jesus who appeared to him in a vision. None of the other disciples could challenge Paul's claims because Jesus did not appear to them to contradict Paul's claims.
Pauline Christianity went beyond Jesus's teachings. But it was popular and appealed to the gentile converts. Christianity is a compromise. Islam on the other hand is a recitation of Gabriel message to an illiterate Arab Mohammad. Christians can accept the comprise Pauline Christianity offers or step up and convert to Islam.

 

[ginaleanne]

Only eat what you are willing to kill for yourself. If you can't kill it you shouldn't eat it.

 

[sincerly]

You can't define words by strongs. It is simply a reference tool.

"The most exhaustive dictionary of ancient Greek is Liddell-Scott’s Lexicon. It is by far the most reliable.

There are six meanings offered in Liddell-Scott’s Lexicon of the Greek verb pisteuo at issue in John 3:16.7

One meaning in Liddell-Scott for the verb pisteuo is comply. A synonym is obey. The NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament

Words (Zondervan: 2000) has this likewise to say of pisteuo:

SL, so are those "tools" you have posted.
Yes. "pisteuo" does mean to Trust/ obey in John 3:16. That Believing that the "gift" of GOD in allowing HIS SON to pay my "sin debt" does take "trust and obedience."
Just as believing that it doesn't matter that an edible animal was offered as a sacrifice to an idol that I haven't worshiped. One isn't obliged to search the history of a carcass from which a portion of meat is purchased.

What was forbidden for a believer in the Creator GOD was to bow down in worship to an Idol. Or to go against one's weak conscience.(One hasn't quiet come to terms with former beliefs.)

That was the problem with those "believing pharisees" who hounded Paul concerning "circumcision and animal sacrifices for sins".

 

[Simplelogic]

SL, so are those "tools" you have posted.
Yes. "pisteuo" does mean to Trust/ obey in John 3:16. That Believing that the "gift" of GOD in allowing HIS SON to pay my "sin debt" does take "trust and obedience."
Just as believing that it doesn't matter that an edible animal was offered as a sacrifice to an idol that I haven't worshiped. One isn't obliged to search the history of a carcass from which a portion of meat is purchased.

What was forbidden for a believer in the Creator GOD was to bow down in worship to an Idol. Or to go against one's weak conscience.(One hasn't quiet come to terms with former beliefs.)

That was the problem with those "believing pharisees" who hounded Paul concerning "circumcision and animal sacrifices for sins".

Except James was on the side of the believing Jews who were "zealous for the Torah".

I'm glad we can agree on the proper understanding of pisteuo. What we need to look at next is the way Paul uses this same word but changes the tense from a future conditional to the present. This means that Paul was using the word "believe" present tense. Its a one time belief model which saves a person. Not trust and obey in the future tense. This is the most profound difference in terms of the way Yeshua and Paul differed on the concept of salvation. In Yeshua's words, works are crucial. In Paul's, they are irrelevent.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
SL, so are those "tools" you have posted.
Yes. "pisteuo" does mean to Trust/ obey in John 3:16. That Believing that the "gift" of GOD in allowing HIS SON to pay my "sin debt" does take "trust and obedience."
Just as believing that it doesn't matter that an edible animal was offered as a sacrifice to an idol that I haven't worshiped. One isn't obliged to search the history of a carcass from which a portion of meat is purchased.

What was forbidden for a believer in the Creator GOD was to bow down in worship to an Idol. Or to go against one's weak conscience.(One hasn't quiet come to terms with former beliefs.)

That was the problem with those "believing pharisees" who hounded Paul concerning "circumcision and animal sacrifices for sins".

Except James was on the side of the believing Jews who were "zealous for the Torah".

SL, No! James in Acts15 was not on the zealous Jews side of the issue. vs 24."Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Nor in Acts 21:24, "Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law."

So vs.27 shows that the zealous were stirred up by Aisian Jews who brought the things which James acknowledged as "nothing" to incite attempted murder.

I'm glad we can agree on the proper understanding of pisteuo. What we need to look at next is the way Paul uses this same word but changes the tense from a future conditional to the present. This means that Paul was using the word "believe" present tense. Its a one time belief model which saves a person. Not trust and obey in the future tense. This is the most profound difference in terms of the way Yeshua and Paul differed on the concept of salvation. In Yeshua's words, works are crucial. In Paul's, they are irrelevent.

It was Jesus who spoke John 3:16 and the "believeth" is future tense. That was the message Jesus gave in Matt.28:18-20. "Go and teach", It is those who "believeth" the message who will be saved.

That is the Same message which Paul taught to all the churches.

 

[Simplelogic]

sincerly said: ↑
SL, so are those "tools" you have posted.
Yes. "pisteuo" does mean to Trust/ obey in John 3:16. That Believing that the "gift" of GOD in allowing HIS SON to pay my "sin debt" does take "trust and obedience."
Just as believing that it doesn't matter that an edible animal was offered as a sacrifice to an idol that I haven't worshiped. One isn't obliged to search the history of a carcass from which a portion of meat is purchased.

What was forbidden for a believer in the Creator GOD was to bow down in worship to an Idol. Or to go against one's weak conscience.(One hasn't quiet come to terms with former beliefs.)

That was the problem with those "believing pharisees" who hounded Paul concerning "circumcision and animal sacrifices for sins".



SL, No! James in Acts15 was not on the zealous Jews side of the issue. vs 24."Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Nor in Acts 21:24, "Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law."

So vs.27 shows that the zealous were stirred up by Aisian Jews who brought the things which James acknowledged as "nothing" to incite attempted murder.



It was Jesus who spoke John 3:16 and the "believeth" is future tense. That was the message Jesus gave in Matt.28:18-20. "Go and teach", It is those who "believeth" the message who will be saved.

That is the Same message which Paul taught to all the churches.