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Jesus vs. Alexander the Great

rojse

RF Addict
Looking on the fount of all knowledge, Wikipedia, there were accounts of Alexander written by Callisthenes (a historian, and the nephew of Alexander's tutor, Aristotle), Ptolmey, Alexander's General, Aristobulus (a historian and architect) Nearchus (an officer) Onesicritus (accompanied Alexander on his campaigns). All of these had direct contact with Alexander, and wrote them during their own lifetime. Although the books themselves do not survive, many works that derive themselves from these original works do, such as Anabasis Alexandri (The Campaigns of Alexander)

I think that it would be worth mentioning here that Alexander is mentioned in the Bible (A tentative possible mention in Daniels 8:5-8, and Daniels 21-22, and a definite mention in Maccabees 1:1-7, which is an apocryphia book)
 

AlbertL

New Member
Looking on the fount of all knowledge, Wikipedia, there were accounts of Alexander written by Callisthenes (a historian, and the nephew of Alexander's tutor, Aristotle), Ptolmey, Alexander's General, Aristobulus (a historian and architect) Nearchus (an officer) Onesicritus (accompanied Alexander on his campaigns). All of these had direct contact with Alexander, and wrote them during their own lifetime. Although the books themselves do not survive, many works that derive themselves from these original works do, such as Anabasis Alexandri (The Campaigns of Alexander)

My understanding is we have:
The Library of world history of Diodorus of Sicily,
Quintus Curtius Rufus' History of Alexander the Great of Macedonia,
A Life of Alexander by Plutarch of Chaeronea
and The Anabasis by Arrian of Nicomedia
as the best known sources for Alexander the Great.
And all of those authors lived more than three centuries after the events they described, though they used older, nearly contemporary sources, that are now lost.
How does this compare to the Bible? Well, for the Bible we have manuscripts within a century from when the events happened. They just recently found a possibly 1st century fragment of Mark. Which would be the first fragment in the same century as the events. But, the difference is that these manuscripts that we have are not copies of sources that mention other sources that we no longer have; these are copies of original works from the original authors. Are they contemporary? No, not really, unless of course Jesus did raise from the dead and is still alive, then anything written about him after he rose from the dead would be considered contemporary, right? (I'm joking a bit here)

I think that it would be worth mentioning here that Alexander is mentioned in the Bible (A tentative possible mention in Daniels 8:5-8, and Daniels 21-22, and a definite mention in Maccabees 1:1-7, which is an apocryphia book)

Also when Alexandar the Great conquered Tyre, that was recorded in the Bible as well; but as a prediction, not as history.
The prophet writes in Ezekiel 26:12 (written around 587-586 BC) that the stone, timber and soil of Tyre will be thrown into the sea! This was fulfilled in 333-332 BC.
The prophet said that Tyre’s stones, timber and soil would be thrown into the sea. That’s probably a fitting description of how Alexander the Great built a land bridge from the mainland to the island of Tyre when he attacked in 333-332 BC. It is believed that he took the rubble from Tyre’s mainland ruins and tossed it – stones, timber and soil – into the sea, to build the land bridge; which is still in existence.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
I was told today by a Christian that there is more historical evidence for Jesus than there is for Alexander the Great. Having read that there is little evidence for Jesus outside of the bible, and all of it rather suspect, I find that a little hard to believe, but I could be entirely wrong. I'm certianly having a harder time finding what historians consider to be proof of Alexander's existance. Does anyone have any insight on this, or at least a good link?
There's a distressing number of Evangelical apologists these days who have no real knowledge of history, science, or alternative religious traditions, and who spout apologetic snippets like that, which they've presumably heard somewhere or learned in Sunday school or something, without ever questioning their accuracy or--heaven forbid--actually verifying it themselves.

The result is that many of these apologists end up looking like idiots and giving people a negative impression of their religion, which I have to imagine is not their intent.

In any case, people have already given good answers, but I'll say that from the position of a classical historian, nobody questions whether Alexander really existed (seriously, it would require a conspiracy of epic proportions, of the sort that people probably aren't even capable of pulling off), and there's enough documentary and physical evidence to reconstruct much of his biography, although some things will always be unknown or inseparable from the mythic tradition that grew up around him. But we have good records on his father, who was already a big deal in the Greek world, and from there we can trace Alexander's rise to power, his military campaigns and specific strategies that he used, his conquests in Asia and Africa, and the institutions of the empire he left behind at his death. The successor states would be the new superpowers that shaped Mediterranean politics for the next couple of centuries. Everyone from Rome to India would be affected in concrete terms by what Alexander did.

With Jesus we only presume that he existed; there is no primary-source evidence, but we figure that somebody had to be the starting point of the mythic tradition that grew up around him, and it's likely that it's at least based on a real guy. And all we have is that mythic tradition, since there is no documentary or physical evidence from his life whatsoever. The closest thing we have is Paul, who never met the guy but claims to have met people who knew him. (Well, yes, Paul does claim to have met Jesus in a vision, but that wouldn't hold up as historical evidence.) Mentions of him appear in Josephus, one of which is a clear insert from a later scribe--seriously, Josephus the Jew is talking about something, then suddenly bursts into a gushing affirmation of the true Messiah Jesus Christ, then goes right back to talking about what he was talking about before--and the other of which simply reports what he has heard, which is evidence of the tradition, not of the man himself. Tacitus similarly reports what he has heard Christians believe, which is not evidence of anything. And those are the sources that apologists keep trotting out every time this issue comes up.

Now, did Jesus affect as many people as Alexander? Yes and no. Alexander's actions, as I mentioned, had concrete consequences for the political, economic, and cultural course of Eurasia for centuries to come. The story of Jesus has inspired just as many people over the millennia. But notice the difference: Jesus didn't directly affect people outside of a small group of followers, who then spread tales of him around the world that would then come to inspire people. I don't want to disparage that, as it's a very powerful thing, but at the same time it's worth pointing out that tales of Hercules were also regarded as inspirational by a great many people, and that's not evidence of Hercules as a historical figure.
 
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