Jesus & Lucifer

[Katzpur]

my question is: where from this “Intelligences” came?

I don't think anybody knows the answer to that question, Marco. It's like asking where God came from. The word "intelligences" is loosely translated as "light and truth." According to the LDS scriptures, "It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed."

 

[Katzpur]

number one is clear (where Lucifer is)

Actually, it’s not where Lucifer is, but where he will ultimately be following the Last Judgment.

E8. Satan and those who were cast out of God’s presence at the conclusion of the War in Heaven will spend eternity in Outer Darkness (the LDS term for Hell). They will be joined by only a relative few others, those who chose mortality but committed the one sin for which there is no forgiveness. This sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. It involves having a perfect knowledge of the Son of God and then categorically denying that knowledge. These are known as the Sons of Perdition.

number two ... what is the difference between spirit prison and paradise? (which one is the Celestial kingdom?)

Neither the spirit prison or paradise are the same thing as the Celestial Kingdom. The Spirit Prison and Paradise are both part of the post-mortal realm, which together are called “The Spirit World.” They are actually better described as “states” than as “locations.”

D1. When a person dies, his spirit leaves his body and goes to the Spirit World, an intermediate state between mortality and immortality. The spirit remains conscious, able to learn and grow spiritual and continues to have free agency.

D2. The Spirit World is comprised of two realms – Paradise and Prison. Those who lived righteous lives (regardless of religious affiliation) will find themselves in Paradise, a state of peace and rest. The wicked will be consigned to Prison, a state of mental anguish and despair.

The Celestial Kingdom is the highest of the three degrees of heavenly glory.

E2. Heaven is a place of many mansions and it is a place where all we be rewarded according to their works. Just as there are varying degrees of righteousness, there are different blessings. Heaven is divided into three “degrees of glory” or heavenly kingdoms, each of which is presided over by a member of the Godhead.

E5. The highest degree of glory is known as the Celestial Kingdom. Paul said that its glory is like that of the sun. The Celestial Kingdom is further divided into three more degrees of glory. The highest of these is reserved for the most faithful and committed of all of God’s children.

E6. Those individuals who, through their faithfulness, attain this degree of glory will have the privilege of being united with their families (generation upon generation) forever. Unlike those who are worthy of a lesser glory, they will also be given the opportunity to progress throughout all of eternity, to ultimately become perfect, even as their Father in Heaven is perfect, to reach the goal set in their Pre-mortal Existence to be like Him. While all who enter Heaven can be said to be "saved," this is the "fulness of salvation,": Exaltation and Life Eternal.

number three ... ok they are the two lowest stages of hell, aren't they? if yes so what is the difference between them

No, they are the two lowest (i.e. the middle and the lowest) kingdoms of Heaven.

E3. The lowest degree of heavenly glory is known as the Telestial Kingdom. This part of Heaven is reserved for those who were resurrected as part of the Second Resurrection. They are the wicked who, having been given many opportunities to accept the Savior’s gift of complete forgiveness, chose not to. The Telestial Kingdom was said by Paul to have a glory which can be compared to that of the stars, a glory which “surpasses all understanding.”

E4. The next higher degree of glory is called the Terrestrial Kingdom. This kingdom, described by Paul as having a glory like that of the moon, will be inhabited by honorable men and women who were lukewarm in their commitment to Jesus Christ and less valiant in keeping His commandments.

 

[Katzpur]

First, there is our pre-mortal existance.

Second, there is our birth and mortality.

Third, there is our post-mortal but pre-resurrection existance (the Spirit World). This is a temporary state of existance comprised of...
Paradise (a place of peace and rest where the righteous await the resurrection) and the Spirit Prison (a place of torment -- sometimes called "Hell" -- where the wicked await the resurrection).

Fourth, there is the resurrection and Final Judgment. The Final Judgment is, as its name implies, final. It results in the eternal assignment of all souls to one of two main places: Heaven and Outer Darkness. Heaven, is divided into (1) the Celestial Kingdom (highest), (2) the Terrestrial Kingdom (middle) and (3) the Telestial Kingdom (lowest). Hell is more accurately known by the term "Outer Darkness."

 

[Sola'lor]

Hi Sola'lor!

Hi.

number two ... what is the difference between spirit prison and paradise? (which one is the Celestial kingdom?)

Spirit Prison is where spirits of people who were not baptized or received the gospel.
Spirit Paradise is for people who recieved the Gospeland were baptized.

number three ... ok they are the two lowest stages of hell, aren't they? if yes so what is the difference bewteen them

Now we need to be clear that the two lowest kingdoms ARE kingdoms of heaven. They are not part of hell. I referenced them as hell because to person qualified to live in the Celestial Kingdom the other two lower Kingdoms would not be a place they would want to spend eternity. But they are not literally hell. They are kingdoms of heaven.

So basically forget what I said about number three being hell. It's all relative anyway.

The Telestial Kingdom is likened to the glory of a star(as seen fromearth) compared to the glory of the moon. The people who go to this kingdom are those who rejected Christ. They did evil things. Hitler will go here.

The Terrestrial Kingdom is likened to the glory of the moon. The people who go here are those who were good people but did not accept the gospel. People who have accepted Christ but did not recieve the ordinances needed for salvation will be here.

The Celestial Kingdom is where God dwells. It is likened to the glory of the sun. Those who were baptized, and faithful in their covenants will go here. The people here were righteous and did all the Christ commanded them.

Here's a diagram to help.

Thank You!

You're welcome.

 

[Scott C.]

Those who go to any degree of glory are "heirs of salvation" (D&C 76). It's inconceivable to me that one can be an heir of salvation and yet also live forever in hell. Hence, non of the three degrees of glory is hell.

Certainly the glory and joy of the telestial is less than the terrestrial, which is less than the Celestial. Nevertheless, the Telestial Kingdom qualifies as a degree of heaven and is therefore part of heaven, not hell.

I don't completely buy into the idea that someone in the Telestial Kingdom would be unhappy in the Terrestrial or Celestial Kingdoms. I believe that all sons and daughters of God would only receive a fullness of joy in exaltation. To become an heir to a lower kingdom implies a lesser degree of joy. If we say that people go where they will be most happy, this could imply that someone in the Telestial Kingdom has the same joy as someone in exaltation. I find that to contradict reason.

The permanent outer darkness of the sons of perdition is hell. Also, some, but not all, of those in Spirit Prison suffer a condition known as hell. Those in spirit prison who never accept Christ or his atonement, including in Spirit Prison, will suffer for their sins in hell and will not be redeemed until the last resurrection, at which time they will leave hell and enter the Telestial Kingdom. There are many in Spirit Prison who lived good lives, but are in Prison waiting for the chance to receive the fullness of the gospel and baptism. While they are in prison and are anxious for the chance to progress, their state is not the same "hell" as those who remain unrepentant of their unrighteous mortal life. The new Gospel Principles Manual discusses this in the chapter on the Spirit World.

I believe people in the Telestial Kingdom will be happy, but will recognize that they forfeited the greatest joy of exaltation. How great will be their joy vs. disappointment is unknown.

 

[Sola'lor]

So let's walk through this. What we call the Plan of Salvation.

First the Pre-Mortal Life:

We believe before being born on the earth were were with God in Heaven.

Abraham 3:22
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

We believe that everyone that was/is/will be born on the earth and even satan and his angels were all born spiritually in Heaven. We don't know how this birth occured but we do know that because of this birth we became God's literal children. So because of this we are all brothers and sisters.

Now while in Heaven we learned and "grew." Just like children become like their parents. Same way that a caterpillar becomes a butterfly so too was it our potential as Children of God to become just like God is. Now our education and growth was limited in the Pre-mortal life because we couldonly do so much as spirits. God had a perfect physical body. So God seeing that we were halted in our progression presented a plan to us so that we could continue our journey to become like him. That plan is the Plan of Salvation which we are discussing.

To become like God we must gain a physical body. The problem is that physical bodies come with their own passions and desires. If God just gave us physical bodies then we would have been overcome by these sensations and desires and we would do all sorts of horrible things. So we must have a place to go to gain a limited physical body and learn to control is and experience the things associated with physical things.

So the earth would be created. But as mentioned before when we gained a physical body we would experience all sorts of passions and God knew that it would be impossible for us to remain pure. And since we could not be pure it would be impossible for us to return to God. That's because not unclean thing can enter into His Kingdom. So God presented a plan that one of His children would be a Saviour. This Saviour would live a sinless life and be punished for all the sins of mankind. And those who followed this Saviour could be forgiven of their sins because their sins had been paid for by the Saviour.

Stay tuned for Part 2: The War in Heaven.

 

[Sola'lor]

Part 2: The War in Heaven

After presenting His plan for us and the need for a Saviour we read this:

Abraham 3:27-28
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

So Jesus christ who was still a spirit (We believe His name then was Jehovah) said that He would be willing to sacrifice himself for the benefit of God's other children. But then another who's name was Lucifer said that he would be the Saviour. But he presented another plan. He said that he would gaurantee all of God's children would return becuase we would not allow them to choose evil things. Not one person would be lost. In exchange he wanted God's throne and power.

As you can see this would present a conflict. I'm sure the idea of not loosing one person was tempting sto some of God's children. If you were scared that you might sin and not choose to follow Christ while on earth then you might find Lucifer's plan a good one.

A great discussion ensued. This discussion is called the War in Heaven. Eventually about one third of God's Children chose to follow Lucifer. These children were cast out of Heaven and went to Outer Darkness. They also may come to earth to tempt those born on the earth.

It is after this that the earth was created. God oversaw the creation of the Earth and Jehova and Michael the Archangel(we believe he is Adam) and many other of God's children took part in creating the Earth. I personally believe every one of us played some part in creating the earth.

Stay tuned for Part 3: The Earth life

 

[DallasApple]

I thought Lucifer was an "angel" ..Never human like we are.

Love

Dallas

 

[Katzpur]

I thought Lucifer was an "angel" ..Never human like we are.

We believe angels are essentially the same as humans, just at a different level within their progress. In the Bible, they are generally described as having the appearance of men, but there are undoubtedly women angels, too. :angel2: We believe that the references in the Bible to a war in Heaven, where Lucifer and his angels fought against Michael and his angels is actually describing an event involving the entire pre-mortal family, all of God's spirit offspring, of which you and I were a part. So, now you know, Dallas. You at least used to be an angel!

By the way, when Lucifer was cast out, he lost the privilege of ever becoming mortal or to returning to God's presence, as did those who fought on his side. The rest (i.e. the rest "of us") were blessed to be born as mortals on this Earth and can look forward to a reconcilation with God.

 

[DallasApple]

We believe angels are essentially the same as humans, just at a different level within their progress. In the Bible, they are generally described as having the appearance of men, but there are undoubtedly women angels, too. :angel2: We believe that the references in the Bible to a war in Heaven, where Lucifer and his angels fought against Michael and his angels is actually speaking of the pre-mortal human family, of which all mankind was a part. So, now you know, Dallas. You at least used to be an angel!

By the way, when Lucifer was cast out, he lost the privilege of ever becoming mortal or to returning to God's presence, as did those who fought on his side. The rest (i.e. the rest "of us") were blessed to be born as mortals on this Earth and can look forward to a reconcilation with God.

You are so sweet to explain that to me.. :yes:

I just think of angels as "non human"...Never were and never will be..Kind of like a dog can never be a cat..Different species..

But thanks for saying I was an angel one time. Hard to believe..

If there are angels that get to be humans..You were an angel too....

You have the traits of a good hearted one .

I appreciate you ..

Love

Dallas

 

[Sola'lor]

Yes Lucifer would be classified as an angel. An angel would be a human spirit who has not (yet) been born on earth. The "yet" only discribes those who followed God's plan and will be born on the earth. Those who followed Lucifer will forever remain spirits and never gain bodies.

But human, angel, demon(Satan's Angels), etc. we are all the same species. Since we are Gods children I like to call us "the god species." I would love to write a book with that as the title.

 

[Marco19]

Thanks all for your great efforts,
your hard work made me search and read more about this point

and here are some interesting things about the same theme...

questions:
we will stay in the Spirit world, where all spirits of death people all going to be gathered...
and in this period the progress of spirit is going on (so there are more chances to bad people to become good)

Q1- How long we are going to stay there (Spirit world)? till the second advent of Christ?
Q2- who were living before Christ, did they get immortal body, or still waiting his second coming?
Q3- is this means possibly a criminal developes his spirit and may go to Terrestial kingdom for instance?
Q4- when God will provide them immortal body again?
Q5- is it going to be there same bodies as the one which they had on the earth?
Q6- having immortal bodies include all the three states or just the Celestial kingdom alone?
Q7- who goes to telestial kingdom, will stay there forever without any progress? or even a chance to go one step upper?
Q8- who goes to Celestial Kingdom and become like God, what will be his/her purpose of eternal life? can he creates his own plan, or that still God's property?

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks all for your great efforts,
your hard work made me search and read more about this point

You're very welcome. I'm sure we're all happy to be able to answer your questions.

Q1- How long we are going to stay there (Spirit world)? till the second advent of Christ?

There will be a first and a second resurrection. The righteous will be resurrected as part of the First Resurrection, which will take place at the beginning of Christ's millennial reign. They will go to either the Celestial or Terrestrial Kingdom. The unrepentent wicked will remain in the Spirit Prison for the duration of the Millennium, where they will be punished for their own sins, having rejected Christ's offer to take those sins upon Himself. At the end of the Millennium, they will be resurrected. Most of them will end up attaining the Telestial Kingdom, but some those who have commited "the unforgivable sin" (which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost") will end up in Outer Darkness.

Q2- who were living before Christ, did they get immortal body, or still waiting his second coming?

They will get an immortal body, but they have not done so yet. Jesus Christ promised the repentent thief who hung next to Him on the cross that He would see him in Paradise that day. We believe that He kept that promise, and did see that man in Paradise, where he remains today, awaiting his resurrection. The Bible also teaches that during the days when His body lay in the tomb, Jesus visited the spirits in Prison and taught them His gospel. Those who repented of their sins and accepted His atoning sacrifice are now in Paradise awaiting their resurrections. Those who rejected Him were left in the Spirit Prison where they will continue to reside until they are resurrected. (Conceivably, some of them could have had a change of heart since the time of His visit; however, I would imagine that anyone in the Spirit Prison who had personally been in the presence of the spirit of his crucified Savior and had rejected Him at that time, would be unlikely to change his mind later on.)

Q3- is this means possibly a criminal developes his spirit and may go to Terrestial kingdom for instance?

Absolutely.

Q4- when God will provide them immortal body again?

Anyone who will end up going to either the Celestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms will reeive his immortal body at the First Resurrection (which is at the beginning of the Millennium).

Q5- is it going to be there same bodies as the one which they had on the earth?

No, although we will certainly recognize one another. We will undoubtedly retain essentially the same appearance as we have now, except that no one will be crippled or deformed. Our bodies, while having a physical appearance (i.e. flesh and bones) will no longer be subject to illness, injury or death.

Q6- having immortal bodies include all the three states or just the Celestial kingdom alone?

My understanding is that all will obtain immortal bodies, but that not all will be glorified equally. In other words, death will be conquered for everyone. No one will ever have to experience any further physical suffering, aging, or deterioration. We know that the scriptures speak of resurrected bodies having differing degrees of glory (like the sun, moon and stars), but I don't personally know that this has been explained in any detail.

Q7- who goes to telestial kingdom, will stay there forever without any progress? or even a chance to go one step upper?

Those who go to the Telestial or Terrestrial Kingdoms may be able to progress only within the kingdom to which they have been judged as worthy. Those who reach the Celestial Kingdom are the only ones who will be blessed to progress forever, having no limit to their potential.

Q8- who goes to Celestial Kingdom and become like God, what will be his/her purpose of eternal life? can he creates his own plan, or that still God's property?

Presumably, these people will be able to become like God in terms of the qualities that a divine being would possess, but they will never be His equal in terms of station or position. They will always look to their Father in Heaven as their Eternal Father, as the Almighty, as God.

 

[Sola'lor]

questions:
we will stay in the Spirit world, where all spirits of death people all going to be gathered...

and in this period the progress of spirit is going on (so there are more chances to bad people to become good)

Not really. People will in all likelyhood retain their attitudes they develope in this life. So if a person has evil desires in this life, they will have evil desires in the spirit world. But we believe that after Christ died his Spirit went to the spirits in Prison and he establish a program to precah the gospel to the spirits there. Now remember Paradise is for those people who were baptized and lived righteously. Now think of how many people in the world have not heard of Christ or have had the chance to be baptized. All of those people's spirits will go to Prison. But becuas eof Christ they will have the chance to hear the gospel in the Spirit World. So all those people who didn't have the chance to hear the gospel in this life will have a chance in the next.

But this isn't really about second chances. it's really about personalities and logistics. It is/was impossible for the gospel to go to every person in the world. So for those people who dies without hearing the gospel this will be their first chance. Simply put if a person would have accepted the gospel in life, but just didn't have the chance, then they will probably accept in the Spirit world. But if a person was bad and would not have accepted the gospel in life then they probably wont accept it in the Spirit world.

This is why we do baptisms and temple work for the dead. baptism and other ordinances are physical things. Spirits can not do them. So we must be baptized on behalf of them. This is then counted as their baptism and they can enter into Paradise.

Q1- How long we are going to stay there (Spirit world)? till the second advent of Christ?

It depends. The Spirits in Paradise will be resurrected around the time of the second coming of Christ. The Spirits in Prison will remain there until the resurrection at the end of the millenium just before the Final Judgement.

Q2- who were living before Christ, did they get immortal body, or still waiting his second coming?

the scriptures say that when Christ was resurrected many graves were opened up and people were resurrected. So we believe many of the ancient righteous people were resurrected after Christ was resurrected.

Q3- is this means possibly a criminal developes his spirit and may go to Terrestial kingdom for instance?

I would say that if a person retains their criminal mentality and they have not changed then they will go to the lowest kingdom(Telestial). But it's not up to me to decide that. Christ is our judge.

Q4- when God will provide them immortal body again?

Wicked people will get an immortal body at the end of the millenium.

Q5- is it going to be there same bodies as the one which they had on the earth?

People will have a perfect body. They will most likely look they way they do now except it will be a perfected version. So a person with a big scar on their face will not hav ethat scar. A person missing a leg or arm will have that arm or leg restored.

Q6- having immortal bodies include all the three states or just the Celestial kingdom alone?

All three. Resurrection and recieving a perfect immortal body is a free gift that Christ gave to everyone who chose to follow God's plan in the Pre-mortal life.

Q7- who goes to telestial kingdom, will stay there forever without any progress? or even a chance to go one step upper?

There are some people who believe people will be able to progress from kingdom to kingdom. But usually this is based on a few writings of Joseph Smith. But For the most part it is agreed that there will not be any progression between kingdoms. People will live with God's judgements for eternity.

Q8- who goes to Celestial Kingdom and become like God, what will be his/her purpose of eternal life? can he creates his own plan, or that still God's property?

This is an area of fewer details. All we really know is that we will become like God. God will always be our God no matter what level we reach. Just like my father is still my father even though I am a father also.

But my personal beliefs are that We will be allowed our own universe just like God in in control of this universe. We will be able to raise our own Spirit children and work to bring to pass their immortality and eternal life just like God did for us. Acoording to the Super String theory of science multiple universes and exist next to each other in virtually the same space. Kind of like a sliced loaf of bread. We would build our own planets and stars just like God did in our current universe.

Now about creating our own plan I really think that there isn't any other possible plan. The Plan of Salvation is only plan that works. So that same type of plan will be used in our own universes.

Now just remember this is my own personal rambling here. It's what we call "Deep Doctrine." When there isn't much official information but there is a lot of speculation.

So it's very similar to how life happens here. A baby is born. The baby grows and develops. Eventually the baby reaches adulthood. The now adult goes on to reproduce. Then a new baby is born and the cycle starts all over again. To me it is the same with us, "the god species."

 

[Marco19]

Hi Katzpur

You're very welcome. I'm sure we're all happy to be able to answer your questions.

thank You All, this encourages me to ask more, so plz be patient

these people will be able to become like God in terms of the qualities that a divine being would possess, but they will never be His equal in terms of station or position. They will always look to their Father in Heaven as their Eternal Father, as the Almighty, as God.

this is interesting, and takes me to the very beginning, why he created us (from the LDS point of view),
Lucifer was His son, and He knew that Lucifer will come against Him (His plan),
and He knows each one of us what will choose, whether obeying His rules or being against them,
my question here: Why He didn't created us from the beginning pure(good) spirits
why all these procedures?

if your answer is to filter the spirit and let only the saints to reach the Celestial kingdom, then my question would be, why He didn't create good spirits ONLY in the beginning?

 

[Marco19]

Hi Sola'lor,

So if a person has evil desires in this life, they will have evil desires in the spirit world.

This is why we do baptisms and temple work for the dead. baptism and other ordinances are physical things. Spirits can not do them. So we must be baptized on behalf of them. This is then counted as their baptism and they can enter into Paradise.

baptism another big issue, but since you mentioned it, let me ask about its real influence...
as you said it's physical thing, so why it's important?
do we in spirit world need batism?
if the person as you said had devil life on the earth, and this desire continued in the spirit world, so why we baptism him after dead?

There are some people who believe people will be able to progress from kingdom to kingdom. But usually this is based on a few writings of Joseph Smith.

could you please mention some references, i'ld like to read them.

"the god species."

although it's first time i hear it, but i like that

 

[Katzpur]

this is interesting, and takes me to the very beginning, why he created us (from the LDS point of view),
Lucifer was His son, and He knew that Lucifer will come against Him (His plan),
and He knows each one of us what will choose, whether obeying His rules or being against them,
my question here: Why He didn't created us from the beginning pure(good) spirits
why all these procedures?

If your answer is to filter the spirit and let only the saints to reach the Celestial kingdom, then my question would be, why He didn't create good spirits ONLY in the beginning?

While it is true that God knows each one of us perfectly, He didn't actually create "good spirits" and "bad spirits" per se. He created spirits that had a choice as to whether to become "good" or "bad." Some were naturally more desirous of doing good, obeying their Father, etc. than others, but none would truly be "good" or "bad" without the opportunity to choose for themselves. The following scripture, from the Book of Mormon teaches a doctrine that is central to our understanding of God's purpose (emphasis mine):

2 Nephi 2:11-14 says, "For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so... righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God. And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon."

Ask yourself these two question:

(1) Are "good choices" really good choices if there is no alternative?
(2) How does a person qualify as a "good spirit" without making "good choices"?

 

[Sola'lor]

as you said it's physical thing, so why it's important?

Baptism is often compared to a gate. In order to enter God's kingdom we must enter through the gate. Baptism is a covenant that we make with God.

John 3:5
5 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Nephi 31:5
5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!

do we in spirit world need batism?

Every person who desired to be saved in God's Kingdom must be baptized. So those people who have died without the chance to be baptized, must be given that chance.

if the person as you said had devil life on the earth, and this desire continued in the spirit world, so why we baptism him after dead?

We don't know the true attitudes of a person. All we can see is their outward self but we have no idea fo te true intentions of their heart. Also christ told us not to judge unrighteously. It is better to do a baptism for someone and have them reject that baptism; than to not do a baptism for someone who wants one.

So basically its better to do as many baptisms for people as we can than to not do them for those who need them.

could you please mention some references, i'ld like to read them.

I gave a couple scriptures.

Here's a website:FAQ: Baptism for the Dead

although it's first time i hear it, but i like that

Well it really makes sense to me.

 

[Orontes]

this is interesting, and takes me to the very beginning, why he created us (from the LDS point of view),
Lucifer was His son, and He knew that Lucifer will come against Him (His plan),
and He knows each one of us what will choose, whether obeying His rules or being against them,
my question here: Why He didn't created us from the beginning pure(good) spirits
why all these procedures?

if your answer is to filter the spirit and let only the saints to reach the Celestial kingdom, then my question would be, why He didn't create good spirits ONLY in the beginning?

Hello,

If I may jump in on answering the above.

Mormons do not believe the part of you that is most primal (the most fundamental aspect of your being) was created. It has always existed. Mormons are metaphysical pluralists: there have always been things that are distinct and unique. The Divine acts on these things and provides the opportunity for growth and progress. Part of what this means is your decisions and acts are your own and cannot be excused or passed off on any ultimate creator. Deity, via His love and desire to see things advance provides Law etc. but whether one accepts such is their own affair/responsibility.

On creating pure/good spirits: to admit morality into any equation means one must admit choice. A good thing is a thing that has freely chosen what is right over other options. Nothing could be made initially good per say (in the sense of being morally actualized). This is one reason why Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden were amoral: they did not yet know morality, but came to through their actions.

On Deity knowing Lucifer would come against Him: (the following will differ from some Mormon's view, but I believe this is due to their not having carefully considered the topic and/or also having unconsciously adopted Greek metaphysical positioning) Deity does not know the future in the strict and logical sense of the word. For example: were one to ask: does God know what I will eat for breakfast on Feb 4th 2020? The answer is no. The idea Deity knows the future in the strict sense is both contra the scriptures and illogical.

The scriptures:

The God of the Hebrews is a God engaged in history, not above it or outside it. The Bible on multiple occasions demonstrates a God surprised, concerned, worried etc. all of which indicate a God for whom the future is open ended. One simple example:

And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. Genesis 22:10-12
​

Deity clearly states "for now I know". Therefore, by and through Abraham's would be act, the Lord knew that Abraham would not withhold even his son. The idea God knows the future is a Greek notion that moved into Christian Thinking as Christianity became Hellenized.

The Logic:

Simply put: the idea Deity knows the future requires there is a future to be known. Because God is perfect, He cannot have false knowledge. Therefore, anything Deity knows cannot be otherwise. Anything known that cannot be otherwise is antithetical to free will. Free will is fundamental to moral status. Therefore if there is a future (and something Deity obviously knows), choice no longer applies and morality does not exist.

The idea God knows the future is a logical fallacy known as reification. This is the error of assigning concrete reality to a concept. In other words, one takes the concept 'future' to be a real thing that exist somewhere. Because it exists somewhere, God must know it. Part of this error is a failure to understand the meaning of the concept. The future is not 'what will be' which begs the question, but rather: 'unrealized possibility'. The future therefore, is the open space of possibility, not a set coarse. Deity knows what is possible, but not what a free agent will necessarily do.


I hope that helps some.

 

[Marco19]

Ask yourself these two question:

(1) Are "good choices" really good choices if there is no alternative?
(2) How does a person qualify as a "good spirit" without making "good choices"?

1 exactly this refers to having both good and bad since the very beginning,
so to know the light we should realize that there is darkness existed either...

2 i agree with this, so there are bad, and good choices, we decide which one to choose

2 Nephi 2:11-14 makes sense, very logical for me