Jesus & Lucifer

[Marco19]

Hi Everybody!

I have some tiny questions, and wanted to ask them all in one thread

1- what was the purpose of Heavenly Father to make the plan of salvation?

2- why Satan wanted to destroy the plan of salvation?

3- Jesus and Satan are brothers, do they have some other known brothers? are the prophets there brother?

4- before the plan, we were spirits, but Heavenly father, Jesus, Lucifer ... they all have bodies
the question is: what is the purpose of having body in the heaven?
do they use there bodies for eating, marrying ,,, etc

5- who don't obey Jesus on the earthly life, will go to Hell ...
is this means that Lucifer is in the Hell now?

6- Heavenly Father knew that Lucifer is wicked, why He didn't stop him from the beginning,
so we as humans wouldn't have to suffer?

7- (hope i understood correctly) ... if Jesus and Lucifer are sons of Heavenly Father,
is this means they have one mother? or they are from different wombs?

please feel free to correct anything you may find wrong from LDS point of view,
i would like to learn from you

Thank You!

 

[madhatter85]

Hi Everybody!

I have some tiny questions, and wanted to ask them all in one thread

1- what was the purpose of Heavenly Father to make the plan of salvation?

His work and Glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind. As literal spirit children of our Heavenly Father, we have the potential to become like him through the plan. He presented it to us because we would need to go though the motions we now face to understand and be able to comprehend that everything has an opposite. Without experiencing mortality, we could not comprehend or appreciate immortality. Also, we must gain a physical body just as our Heavenly Father has and obtain it .

2- why Satan wanted to destroy the plan of salvation?

Fear.
When the plan was presented to us to be able to chose to follow God through faith in mortality we were also presented with the risks. Satan's plan he presented to take away free-agency and forcefully save everyone clearly shows he was afraid of the risks. he thought he would fail. But he also desired the same Power God had. he was basically thought he could take on God and try to take over his kingdom and he was shamefully cast out of God's presence for his rebellion.

3- Jesus and Satan are brothers, do they have some other known brothers? are the prophets there brother?

We are all brothers and sisters, every one of us. we are all literal spirit children of God.

4- before the plan, we were spirits, but Heavenly father, Jesus, Lucifer ... they all have bodies
the question is: what is the purpose of having body in the heaven?
do they use there bodies for eating, marrying ,,, etc

No, only God had a physical body, perfected and glorified (not like our mortal bodies). Jesus was born on this earth just like everyone else to obtain a physical body, however he was perfect and because he was perfect, he was able to take upon himself the sins of the world. There is a law that even God cannot break and that is justice. But through the atonement the law of justice can be met and mercy can be granted to heavenly father's children.

5- who don't obey Jesus on the earthly life, will go to Hell ...
is this means that Lucifer is in the Hell now?

No, those who choose not to follow Christ are unable to obtain our heavenly father's kingdom. The only ones who will be cast into outer darkness, or hell are those who came out in open rebellion against God after having a perfect knowledge of him. relatively few in mortality have the capacity to make it that far. That is why there are multiple degrees to the resurrection as outlined in 1st Corinthians chapter 15.

Even those who will be cast into outer darkness for rebellion will only go there after the final judgment which is after the millennium, after Christ's return to the earth. until that time there is a place prepared for everyone who has died all the way back to the time of Adam, this temporary place is paradise or spirit prison depending on wither or not you followed Christ's counsel in mortality. but spirit prison is a place of learning and repentance. this is why we do temple work for those who have passed on without a knowledge of God. "For every knee shall bow and every tongue confess."

6- Heavenly Father knew that Lucifer is wicked, why He didn't stop him from the beginning,
so we as humans wouldn't have to suffer?

Heavenly father knew what would happen but he will not interfere with free agency. It was Lucifer's choice to rebel against God.

7- (hope i understood correctly) ... if Jesus and Lucifer are sons of Heavenly Father,
is this means they have one mother? or they are from different wombs?

God created man and woman both in his image. this suggests to me that we do have a heavenly mother. Also from modern revelation we find that men and women, sealed in the temple of God through the holy spirit of promise by those with proper authority, can only become Gods together. otherwise they would not have joy in thier posterity and have an "eternal increase" or, spirit children of their own.

please feel free to correct anything you may find wrong from LDS point of view,
i would like to learn from you

Thank You!

not a problem, i hope i have sufficiently corrected your misconceptions regarding the plan of salvation.

 

[blackout]

Jesus and Satan are of the essence of Lucifer The dark and the light sides. I see Lucifer as Gods subconscious or HS The unruly side that God finds hard to control but in the end they accept each other and become one.

And Lucifer is Gods proudest creation!!!

You're in the latter-day Saints forum honey.
The "Discuss individual religions" forums
are same belief/religion/philosophy forums.

When I PM you back, I'll explain.

 

[David69]

You're in the latter-day Saints forum honey.
The "Discuss individual religions" forums
are same belief/religion/philosophy forums.

When I PM you back, I'll explain.

Im just trying to find my way around this site! itll take me a while to understand it propperly
Thanks

 

[madhatter85]

I have some tiny questions, and wanted to ask them all in one thread

1- what was the purpose of Heavenly Father to make the plan of salvation?
God purposed (not planned) to santify his name and save obedient mankind from sin and death. (John 3:16)

2- why Satan wanted to destroy the plan of salvation?
Satan is an arrogant and wicked opposer and slanderer of God and man.

3- Jesus and Satan are brothers, do they have some other known brothers? are the prophets there brother?
Once Satan sinned, he cut himself off from being in God's family, so Jesus and Satan are no longer brothers in the sense Satan has been removed from God's family.

4- before the plan, we were spirits, but Heavenly father, Jesus, Lucifer ... they all have bodies
the question is: what is the purpose of having body in the heaven?
do they use there bodies for eating, marrying ,,, etc

Being spirits before birth is not a Bible teaching. Adam was created from dust from the ground, not sent from the spirit realm. Both spirits and humans have bodies.
(1 Corinthians 15:39,40)

5- who don't obey Jesus on the earthly life, will go to Hell ...
is this means that Lucifer is in the Hell now?
No. Jesus said destruction is the end of those who are disobedient (John 3:16). Satan is active here at the earth. (Revelations 12:9-12)

6- Heavenly Father knew that Lucifer is wicked, why He didn't stop him from the beginning, so we as humans wouldn't have to suffer?
God did not create Satan. Satan made himself a resister or opposer (Satan) and lying slanderer (devil) when he misled Eve in the garden of Eden.

7- (hope i understood correctly) ... if Jesus and Lucifer are sons of Heavenly Father,
is this means they have one mother? or they are from different wombs?

please feel free to correct anything you may find wrong from LDS point of view,
i would like to learn from you

Again, this is not a Bible teaching. There are no literal mothers in heaven. Jesus is God's only-begotten Son, directly created by God. (John 3:16, Revelations 3:14)

I wish you well in your search for the truth.

this is the LDS forum, I assume from your answers you are not LDS, I would appreciate if you deleted your post as the questions was posed in the LDS forum.

Thanks.

 

[madhatter85]

Jesus and Satan are of the essence of Lucifer The dark and the light sides. I see Lucifer as Gods subconscious or HS The unruly side that God finds hard to control but in the end they accept each other and become one.

And Lucifer is Gods proudest creation!!!

i would also suggest deleting your post as well.

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Everybody!

I have some tiny questions, and wanted to ask them all in one thread

1- what was the purpose of Heavenly Father to make the plan of salvation?

2- why Satan wanted to destroy the plan of salvation?

3- Jesus and Satan are brothers, do they have some other known brothers? are the prophets there brother?

4- before the plan, we were spirits, but Heavenly father, Jesus, Lucifer ... they all have bodies
the question is: what is the purpose of having body in the heaven?
do they use there bodies for eating, marrying ,,, etc

5- who don't obey Jesus on the earthly life, will go to Hell ...
is this means that Lucifer is in the Hell now?

6- Heavenly Father knew that Lucifer is wicked, why He didn't stop him from the beginning,
so we as humans wouldn't have to suffer?

7- (hope i understood correctly) ... if Jesus and Lucifer are sons of Heavenly Father,
is this means they have one mother? or they are from different wombs?

please feel free to correct anything you may find wrong from LDS point of view,
i would like to learn from you

Thank You!

Hi, marco. I hope you don't see this as a cop-out, but rather than answer these questions with answers that may require a more in-depth discussion than a couple of sentences, I'll refer you to a thread I started once that addresses most of these questions and should give you a pretty good understanding of the LDS doctrine on The Plan of Salvation - Beginning to End. Posts 2 through 6 cover our beliefs pretty thoroughly. (Post 1 is just an introduction. It's a fair amount of reading, but each point is addressed pretty consisely.)

 

[Marco19]

i do appreciate your effort to make a respond,
for non LDS members special thanks, but as you see this is LDS section,
and my purpose is to get the LDS vision only.

Katzpur i do agree with you!
sure, i'll read your thread ... but that not means the end of this thread!
please be ready to my questions

Best regards

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Everybody!

I have some tiny questions, and wanted to ask them all in one thread

I've decided that it really wasn't fair of me to point you to that humongous thread of mine. You may find it interesting, but it really was kind of a cop-out on my part. Anyway, I know others have already responded, but we LDS all like to get in on the act when we can, so without reading anybody else's replies yet, I've just given you a few quick replies of my own...

1- what was the purpose of Heavenly Father to make the plan of salvation?

In a nutshell, the entire purpose of the plan was our happiness. God wanted to give us experiences where we could learn and grow and take the first step to becoming like Him. LDS scripture puts it this way: "And this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

2- why Satan wanted to destroy the plan of salvation?

He was, from the beginning, a proud and rebellious spirit whose intent it was to exalt himself as opposed to glorifying God. When God chose His Only Begotten Son to be our Savior, Lucifer/Satan led one-third of the host of Heaven in a war against God, and was subsequently cast out of His presence.

3- Jesus and Satan are brothers, do they have some other known brothers? are the prophets there brother?

I wouldn't say that Jesus and Satan are brothers any more, since Satan lost the right to be known as a son of God when he chose to fight againt his Father in his pre-mortal life. Yes, there are other known brothers -- and sisters, too. Each of us was a spirit sibling of both Jesus Christ and Lucifer before we were born on earth.

4- before the plan, we were spirits, but Heavenly father, Jesus, Lucifer ... they all have bodies

No, only Heavenly Father had a body at that time. Jesus received a body when He was born to a mortal mother, Mary. Lucifer forfeited his right to ever receive a body when he was cast out of Heaven.

the question is: what is the purpose of having body in the heaven?
do they use there bodies for eating, marrying ,,, etc.

To answer that question, I'm going to turn to the Clementine Homilies, a Jewish document that was based on a second-century source:

"And Simon said: 'I should like to know, Peter, if you really believe that the shape of man has been moulded after the shape of God.' And Peter said: 'I am really quite certain, Simon, that this is the case... It is the shape of the just God."

For He has shape, and He has every limb primarily and solely for beauty's sake, and not for use. For He has not eyes that He may see with them; for He sees on every side, since He is incomparably more brilliant in His body then the visual spirit which is in us, and He is more splended than everything, so that in comparison with Him the light of the sun may be reckoned as darkness. Nor has He ears that He may hear; for He hears, perceives, moves, energizes, acts on every side. But He has the most beautiful shape on account of man, that the pure in heart, may be able to see Him, that they may rejoice because they suffered. For He moulded man in His own shape as in the grandest seal, in order that he may be the ruler and lord of all, and that all may be subject to him.

5- who don't obey Jesus on the earthly life, will go to Hell ...

No. We don't believe in the traditional concept of Hell. I think I'm going to let you read my thread after all, rather than to try to answer that.

is this means that Lucifer is in the Hell now?

We use the term "Outer Darkness" rather than "Hell." Lucifer is not in Outer Darkness now. He and the spirits of the wicked who were cast out of Heaven following the "war" he waged are the spirits of evil who tempt mankind today. He will ultimately spend eternity in Outer Darkness, along with those who were cast out with him. The vast majority of the spirits who ended up coming to earth (i.e. all mankind essentially) will end up in Heaven, though not all will receive exactly the same reward.

6- Heavenly Father knew that Lucifer is wicked, why He didn't stop him from the beginning, so we as humans wouldn't have to suffer?

We needed to be able to learn the difference between good and evil. We believe that there is a need for opposition in all things. If we were only subjected to good choices, we would really never be able to make a choice at all.

7- (hope i understood correctly) ... if Jesus and Lucifer are sons of Heavenly Father, is this means they have one mother? or they are from different wombs?

Jesus was born to Mary, so she was His earthly mother. Lucifer wasn't born at all, so he had no earthly mother. Pregnancy and childbirth are mortal experiences only. We do believe that we had a Mother in Heaven and that she was the Mother of our spirits. But a spirit is not "born" like a human being is born. Does that make sense?

 

[Sola'lor]

1- what was the purpose of Heavenly Father to make the plan of salvation?

To provide a way for His children to develope from our previous state, to our future state.

2- why Satan wanted to destroy the plan of salvation?

He wanted God's power.

3- Jesus and Satan are brothers, do they have some other known brothers? are the prophets there brother?

Everybody is their brother/sisters. We are all literally brothers and sisters.

4- before the plan, we were spirits, but Heavenly father, Jesus, Lucifer ... they all have bodies
the question is: what is the purpose of having body in the heaven?
do they use there bodies for eating, marrying ,,, etc

Jesus and Lucifer did not have bodies. They were spirits just like the rest of us. The purpose of having a physical body is because is it a superior condition over that of a simple spiritual body. A Physical body has abilities that a spiritual body doesn't. A spiritual body has abilities that a physical body doesn't. Both combined together in a perfect form a being has all the abilities.

[quotre]5- who don't obey Jesus on the earthly life, will go to Hell ...
is this means that Lucifer is in the Hell now?[/quote]

There are three different places in the LDS termonology that can be described as hell.

1. Outer darkness. A place outside of God's presence.
2. Spirit Prison. The Spirit World is where spirits go after the body dies. There are two places: Spirit Prison, and Paradise.
3. Lower two kingdoms other than the Celestial. The Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms. These three are all kingdoms of heaven but the lower two would be considered hell by someone wanting to get to the Celestial kingdom.

In this case you are right those who do not obey Christ will go to hell. But they will go to 2 or 3. Very rarely will a person go to number 1. But before we can to this world we lived with God in his presence. Lucifer was cast out of there and went to number 1. So Lucifer was in number 1 long before any of us were on this world.

I hope that makes a bit of sense.

6- Heavenly Father knew that Lucifer is wicked, why He didn't stop him from the beginning,
so we as humans wouldn't have to suffer?

Because we must experience pain and sickness and suffering to progress in this mortal life. If God would have stopped Lucifer then there would not have been any evilon the earth. And God would have been forcing everyone to do good. Lucifer wanted to force everyone to do good too. So God would have been following Lucifer's plan if he had stopped him.

Also Lucifer had his agency.

We must experience bad things to help us develop and become more like God.

7- (hope i understood correctly) ... if Jesus and Lucifer are sons of Heavenly Father,
is this means they have one mother? or they are from different wombs?

We don't know the role a mother would play in the creation of spirit children. So we don't know if a womb is even needed.

 

[Katzpur]

There are three different places in the LDS termonology that can be described as hell.

1. Outer darkness. A place outside of God's presence.
2. Spirit Prison. The Spirit World is where spirits go after the body dies. There are two places: Spirit Prison, and Paradise.
3. Lower two kingdoms other than the Celestial. The Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms. These three are all kingdoms of heaven but the lower two would be considered hell by someone wanting to get to the Celestial kingdom.

Sola'lor, could you provide a source for your #3 statement, please? (Preferably something from one of the General Authorities, if you dont' have a scripture reference.)

 

[Sola'lor]

Sola'lor, could you provide a source for your #3 statement, please? (Preferably something from one of the General Authorities, if you dont' have a scripture reference.)

Don't have any. It's just something that I've heard from members.

 

[SoyLeche]

Don't have any. It's just something that I've heard from members.

I'm not sure I agree with those members. I think that we'll end up where we'll be the happiest. The Celestial Kingdom would be hell to a telestial person.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm not sure I agree with those members. I think that we'll end up where we'll be the happiest. The Celestial Kingdom would be hell to a telestial person.

I agree.

 

[Sola'lor]

I'm not sure I agree with those members. I think that we'll end up where we'll be the happiest. The Celestial Kingdom would be hell to a telestial person.

That is true too. But I said, "These three are all kingdoms of heaven but the lower two would be considered hell by someone wanting to get to the Celestial kingdom."

 

[madhatter85]

Sola'lor is right. When we do receive a full knowledge of our dealings in the pre-existence i don't believe anyone would desire to only live in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom.

We will acquire the degree of glory that is reflected by our works and faith.

 

[SoyLeche]

That is true too. But I said, "These three are all kingdoms of heaven but the lower two would be considered hell by someone wanting to get to the Celestial kingdom."

And I'm saying it wouldn't be. I think everyone will fully understand that being anywhere other than where we are would be hell. Nobody who is in a Kingdom of Glory will be in any type of Hell, nor do I think anyone will consider themselves to be in hell.

 

[SoyLeche]

Sola'lor is right. When we do receive a full knowledge of our dealings in the pre-existence i don't believe anyone would desire to only live in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom.

We will acquire the degree of glory that is reflected by our works and faith.

If I knew I'd be miserable in the Celestial Kingdom but happy in the Terrestrial Kingdom you can bet your booty that I'd rather be in the Terrestrial Kingdom than the Celestial Kingdom.

Granted, I'm still in a state of flux right now, so I'm going to work to prepare myself to be happy in the Celestial Kingdom.

 

[Marco19]

Hi Katzer!
your answers were very helpful, but i have a qs from your thread, where you mentioned this:

A2. Co-eternal with God was a form of spirit matter that has been described as “the light of truth.” Latter-day Saint scriptures refer to it as “Intelligences.” It is neither created nor made.

my question is: where from this “Intelligences” came?

 

[Marco19]

Hi Sola'lor!

There are three different places in the LDS termonology that can be described as hell.

1. Outer darkness. A place outside of God's presence.
2. Spirit Prison. The Spirit World is where spirits go after the body dies. There are two places: Spirit Prison, and Paradise.
3. Lower two kingdoms other than the Celestial. The Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms. These three are all kingdoms of heaven but the lower two would be considered hell by someone wanting to get to the Celestial kingdom.

too many terms ...get confused ... plz help :help:
number one is clear (where Lucifer is)

number two ... what is the difference between spirit prison and paradise? (which one is the Celestial kingdom?)

number three ... ok they are the two lowest stages of hell, aren't they? if yes so what is the difference bewteen them

Thank You!