Jesus is under subjection to God.

[Kolibri]

Billions or tetracycline gadzillions? No beginning for Jesus would naturally be just that. Jesus' nephesh was born in the womb. No known souls of men were born earlier. Jesus WAS when God determined him, before the world was, get Judaic pre-existence down, be happy.

Not quite no beginning. "Merely" the beginning - the first created thing. It was foreign to the Jews. Humans in general do not preexist as spirits. Jesus himself singled himself out as unique in this way, "the one who descended from heaven." (John 3:13)
And he said "I am from the realms above....I am not from this world." (John 8:23)

Jesus was not a "soul" before he became human. He was as he is today, a ru'ach or "spirit".

 

[Desert Snake]

What he might have said is pure conjecture. What he did say written down we know. Stick to simple truth, be happy.

Why don't we look at our options.

The father is within Jesus, working through Him = Jesus is God, through spirit.
Jesus is literally a manifestation of the father = Jesus is God.
Jesus dos not have the father in Him, nor is He a manifestation = Jesus is not God, just a Rabbi.
Now, if just a Rabbi, with no divine authority, how exactly can He change or modify Judaic tradition?
If the Father is in Him, and He says, 'Worship only the Lord, your God', then He is by default referring to Himself.

Jesus said that he was in the father, and the Father in Him..is He lying?

 

[Kolibri]

Jesus said that he was in the father, and the Father in Him..is He lying?

No, Jesus is not lying. But the "in" here is not in the way you may think it to mean. You are citing John 17:21 but verses 21-23 show this is a statement of unity, not a statement of beingness.

 

[nothead]

I'm not interested in quote-mines, so much as I am context. These are all lovely, but they can be interpreted in several different ways and dismissed. But when the context upholds the Deity of Jesus -- that's when we sit up and take notice.

So then you are claiming HINTS of Jesus' divinity might even be BETTER than a plain and true statement of Jesus' divinity, sir?

 

[nothead]

No we don't. What we "know" is "what somebody said Jesus said."

Yayuh, you right, so? Got something better to go by? How about progressive annoying cliches?

 

[sojourner]

So then you are claiming HINTS of Jesus' divinity might even be BETTER than a plain and true statement of Jesus' divinity, sir?

No, I'm claiming that context is more compelling than material taken out of context.

 

[sojourner]

Yayuh, you right, so? Got something better to go by? How about progressive annoying cliches?

All I expect is honesty with regard to the texts.

 

[nothead]

"Kolibri, post: 4212166, member: 55852"]Not quite no beginning. "Merely" the beginning - the first created thing. It was foreign to the Jews. Humans in general do not preexist as spirits. Jesus himself singled himself out as unique in this way, "the one who descended from heaven." (John 3:13)
And he said "I am from the realms above....I am not from this world." (John 8:23)

Your elders told you that, eh? Why Jesus never relate being with his Father during any historical Jewish event EVER including the Creation, sir? Didn't like telling stories, or his experiences? Thought to keep it secret until later? Doesn't like stories at all? What?

Jesus was not a "soul" before he became human. He was as he is today, a ru'ach or "spirit".

What is the difference in your view? Soul and spirit, nephesh and ruach?

 

[nothead]

No, I'm claiming that context is more compelling than material taken out of context.

Tell me a CONTEXT which says Jesus is God and I will give you PLAIN text which says he is not. How about that?

 

[nothead]

Why don't we look at our options.

The father is within Jesus, working through Him = Jesus is God, through spirit.
Jesus is literally a manifestation of the father = Jesus is God.
Jesus dos not have the father in Him, nor is He a manifestation = Jesus is not God, just a Rabbi.
Now, if just a Rabbi, with no divine authority, how exactly can He change or modify Judaic tradition?
If the Father is in Him, and He says, 'Worship only the Lord, your God', then He is by default referring to Himself.

Jesus said that he was in the father, and the Father in Him..is He lying?

Jesus was "elohim" to whom the Word of God came. He was SENT and Anointed with Spirit to do exactly what HIS God would have him to do. Being made JUST UNDER the angels he accomplish all HIS God would have him to do, and was glorified by HIS God over the angels, which also by the way fall under this category: elohim. Being ELOHIM of elohim, God Almight is ever over all, including number two at HIS Right Hand.

Was this one of your options or not?

 

[nothead]

All I expect is honesty with regard to the texts.

When have I been dishonest?

 

[sojourner]

Tell me a CONTEXT which says Jesus is God and I will give you PLAIN text which says he is not. How about that?

Luke/Acts might be an obvious place for starters. Luke's whole context presents Jesus as a comparison to Augustus (who was thought to be divine).

 

[sojourner]

When have I been dishonest?

I didn't say you had been. I said that's all I expect with regard to the texts. Context is usually more honest than quote-mining. Not always, but usually.

 

[Kolibri]

Your elders told you that, eh?

what do those brothers taking the lead in my congregation have to do with it? I am a student that needs to look to the scriptures to prove what I am hearing. This fits what I read in the scriptures. To me, "of all creation" in "the firstborn of all creation" ties the firstborn to being a subset of the creation. Thus the firstborn is created. As the creation he is not the Creator. And since "through him" "all things" invisible were created, then he had to be around when these invisible things, like angels, were created.

This chain of logic seems reasonable and we are told to use our power of reason. (Rom 12:1)

What is the difference in your view? Soul and spirit, nephesh and ruach?

As used in the Bible, soul (ne'phesh and psy-khe') basically refers to 3 things, (1) people, (2) animals, and (3) the life that person or animal has. When it is used with earthy creatures, it refers to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal. The few times it is not used in connection with earthly creatures it is used animorphically towards God himself, and yet retains the idea of one's entire self.

Spirit on the other hand, (that is ru'ach and pneu'ma) has 6 different meanings depending on context - (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person's figurative heart and causes him to say and do things a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God's active force or holy spirit.

 

[moorea944]

what do those brothers taking the lead in my congregation have to do with it? I am a student that needs to look to the scriptures to prove what I am hearing. This fits what I read in the scriptures. To me, "of all creation" in "the firstborn of all creation" ties the firstborn to being a subset of the creation. Thus the firstborn is created. As the creation he is not the Creator. And since "through him" "all things" invisible were created, then he had to be around when these invisible things, like angels, were created.

This chain of logic seems reasonable and we are told to use our power of reason. (Rom 12:1)



As used in the Bible, soul (ne'phesh and psy-khe') basically refers to 3 things, (1) people, (2) animals, and (3) the life that person or animal has. When it is used with earthy creatures, it refers to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal. The few times it is not used in connection with earthly creatures it is used animorphically towards God himself, and yet retains the idea of one's entire self.

Spirit on the other hand, (that is ru'ach and pneu'ma) has 6 different meanings depending on context - (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person's figurative heart and causes him to say and do things a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God's active force or holy spirit.

Good post. The other thing is that people think we are given a "soul". That is know where in the bible. We ARE a soul. But soul can be written in different ways too that can confuse some people. Same with "spirit". Lots of times spirit is breath. And Stephen gave up his spirit or his breath.

Remember, scripture tells us that the soul can sleep, eat, die, etc, etc. But never once is 'immortal" and "soul" found together. Ever!

 

[outhouse]

Luke/Acts might be an obvious place for starters. Luke's whole context presents Jesus as a comparison to Augustus (who was thought to be divine).

And FIRST labeled "son of god"


He probably isn't going to like the parallels to Moses either in Matthew

 

[nothead]

Luke/Acts might be an obvious place for starters. Luke's whole context presents Jesus as a comparison to Augustus (who was thought to be divine).

Actually none of the gospels even hint Jesus is God. John's especially wherein most deity proof-texts come. Jn 17:3 This is eternal life, that they know you the ONLY True God and [also] me whom thou hast SENT.

"Son of man" was the constant terminology from Jesus' own mouth, and the "anointing and sent" concepts first emphasized. This term was first said 94 out of 100 times to EZEKIEL. The secret of the Kingdom was that this man was also a miracle worker, a propitiation for all men to start a New Covenant with his God, and the example for all men to bear their own cross for this same God. The "secret" which was integral to gospel and epistle was the new terms for Jesus, "Christ," and "Messiach." NEITHER term denoting divinity except in the sense that he had the fullness of the indwelling of his God in bodily (shekinahed) mien.

 

[nothead]

And FIRST labeled "son of god"


He probably isn't going to like the parallels to Moses either in Matthew

How could a parallel to Moses ever connote a God among us? God himself said, "see I have made thee an ELOHIM to Pharaoh." Ex 7. This means an elevated man to whom the Word of God came. NOT YHWH Elohim.

Know Elohim Theology, be happy. The confusion thereof is the very reason why 98% of Christianity believe Jesus IS the One True God.

 

[sojourner]

Actually none of the gospels even hint Jesus is God.

Luke/Acts does. IF -- you read it critically and actually exegete the text.

 

[outhouse]

God himself said,

Which god El or Yahweh ??