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Jesus is not God

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by andy, Mar 13, 2005.

  1. andy

    andy Member

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    John 8:58, Jesus is not saying he is God, Jesus is talking about his foreknowledge. Even the Jews who deny Jesus are still waiting for the coming of the savior. The foreknowlegde of Jesus Christ coming was known B/4 Jesus was born.

    Look B/4 John 8:58

    John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

    Jesus explains here who God is, Jesus cannot honour himself but God. It is he that is our God.




     
  2. SoliDeoGloria

    SoliDeoGloria Active Member

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    Jesus prayed, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me wityh thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5). But Yahweh of the old testament said "my glory will I not give to another"(Isa 42:8). Jesus also declared, "I am the first and the last" (Rev.1:17)-precisely the words used by Jehova in Isaiah 42:8. He said "I am the good shepherd" (John 10:11), but the old testament said, "Yahweh is my shepherd" (Ps.23:1). further, Jesus claimed to be the judge of all people( Matt.25:31f;John5:27f), But Joel quotes Jehova as saying, "for there will I sit to judge all the nations on every side" (Joel 3:12)., Likewise Jesus spoke of himself as the "bridegroom" (Matt. 25:1) while the old testament identifies Jehova in this way (Isa. 62:5; hos. 2:16). While the Psalmist declares, The LORD is my light" (Ps. 27:1), Jesus said, "I am the light of the world".

    In a nutshell, yet more examples of Jesus communicatiing to Jewish people in a language that He knew they would understand that He was indeed Jehova, not some superman with super foreknowledge of who has existed for a long time in another dimension.

    Sincerely,
    SoliDeoGloria
     
  3. andy

    andy Member

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    God will not Judge! Jesus the Son of God will judge.

    John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

    John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

    John 5:31 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    God will not judge man but the Son, Jesus was a man and was tempted. God cannot be tempted and he will not judge man because of this.

    James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:


     
  4. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    IS Jehovah in the "Old Testament" Jesus Christ in the "New Testament"?





    Matt. 4:10: "Jesus said to him: ‘Go away, Satan! For it is written, "It is Jehovah ["the Lord," KJ and others] your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service."’" (Jesus was obviously not saying that he himself was to be worshiped.)​

    John 8:54: "Jesus answered [the Jews]: ‘If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, he who you say is your God.’" (The Hebrew Scriptures clearly identify Jehovah as the God that the Jews professed to worship. Jesus said, not that he himself was Jehovah, but that Jehovah was his Father. Jesus here made it very clear that he and his Father were distinct individuals.)​

    Ps. 110:1: "The utterance of Jehovah to my [David’s] Lord is: ‘Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.’" (At Matthew 22:41-45, Jesus explained that he himself was David’s "Lord," referred to in this psalm. So Jesus is not Jehovah but is the one to whom Jehovah’s words were here directed.)​

    Phil. 2:9-11: "For this very reason also God exalted him [Jesus Christ] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. [Dy reads: " . . . every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father." Kx and CC read similarly, but a footnote in Kx acknowledges: " . . . the Greek is perhaps more naturally rendered ‘to the glory,’" and NAB and JB render it that way.]" (Notice that Jesus Christ is here shown to be different from God the Father and subject to Him.)

     
  5. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Jesus prayed: "Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." (Joh 17:5) Jesus used the term here to refer to the exalted state that he enjoyed in heaven before coming to earth. In answer to that prayer, Jehovah "glorified his Servant, Jesus," by resurrecting him and bringing him back into heaven. (Ac 3:13-15)



    "​
    "And he laid his right hand upon me and said: ‘Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one.’" (Revelation 1:17b, 18a) In Isaiah 44:6, Jehovah rightly describes his own position as the one and only almighty God, saying: "I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God." When Jesus presents himself by the title "the First and the Last," he is not claiming equality with Jehovah, the Grand Creator. He is using a title properly bestowed on him by God. In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.




    Jesus was indeed "the First" human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Colossians 1:18) Moreover, he is "the Last" to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally. Thus, he becomes "the living one . . . living forever and ever." He enjoys immortality. In this, he is like his immortal Father, who is called "the living God." (Revelation 7:2; Psalm 42:2) For all others of humanity, Jesus himself is "the resurrection and the life." (John 11:25) In harmony with this, he says to John: "I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Revelation 1:18b) Jehovah has given him the authority to resurrect the dead. That is why Jesus can say that he has the keys to unlock the gates for those bound by death and Hades (gravedom).—Compare Matthew 16:18.

     
  6. andy

    andy Member

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    Jesus is equal to God, this does not make Jesus God. It's called Orientalisms of the Bible. The culture of a man and son were equal. What the father had meant the status of his son also, the son was equal to the father but the father was greater than the son.

    Revelation 3:21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    Luke 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

    Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    Acts 7:56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.

    When Jesus is in heaven, at the right hand side of God, you see both God and Jesus.
     
  7. angellous_evangellous

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    However, Christians uphold the Shema of Deut. 6.4: The LORD, the LORD your GOD is one. We see God in Jesus, not Jesus at God's side. We see in these verses that you provided that Jesus is given only what belongs to God: the authority to judge and to rule.

    We see God in Jesus in Rev 3.21: set down with my Father in His throne. There is only one throne, occupied by Jesus our God.

    Luke 22.69: sit on the right hand of the power of God Jesus is given the power of God to rule here as well - the right hand of God is not literal. God is understood as spirit, and spirits do not have arms (here we get into the Trinity, the working out of Jesus as the One God). To sit at the right hand of God, then, is to have power that is attributed only to God, therefore, Jesus is God, the One God.

    The next two verses you provided are interpreted in like manner.
     
  8. andy

    andy Member

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    Jesus told the people they have not heard or seen God at any time! Jesus was right in front of them, He is not God. Jesus explains God sent him and they hear not or see God that sent him.

    John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

    Jesus work is not his, what you see is God at work. Jesus only doing what he was taught by God.
    John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and he will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
    Jesus only does what God has shown and taught him.

    John 5:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
    Jesus does what pleases God not himself.


     
  9. SoliDeoGloria

    SoliDeoGloria Active Member

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    Alright, this subject has been a highly debated issue since Jesus first started His ministry (Matt. 16:13-20)and will probably be debated until "the end". I know what I believe and why I believe it so I guess here is a bit more from some resources I know of on the subject. BTW, I don't expect to "convert" anyone to believing that Jesus was Jehova right here and now since only the Holy Spirit can change hearts. Our calling as Christians is to present the evidence (1 Pet. 3:15) and pray, that's it. So, here goes...

    *Col. 1:15: Does not mean that Christ is the first creature, Since He is here presented as the Son and principle heir of the Father (cf. vv. 12-14); thus "firstborn" here means "heir" (cf. Gen. 43:33; 48:14-20; Ex. 4:22; 1 Chron. 5:1-3; Psa. 89:27; Jer 31:90; not that verse 16 speaks of the Son as creator not creature.

    *Rev. 3:14: "Beginning" (arche) in Rev. as a title means source or one who begins, i.e., creator (cf. Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:13); elsewhere Christ is called the arche in the sense of "ruler," Col. 1:18, cf. plual archai "rulers" in Col. 1:16; 2:10, 15, also Luke 12:11; Rom 8:38; Eph. 3:10; 6:12; Tit. 3:1; cf. Luke 20:20; Jude 6; 1 Cor. 15:24; Eph. 1:21

    *1 Cor. 11; 3; 15:28. Jesus is still subordinate to God, but as the Son to the Father, i.e., they are equal in nature, but the Son is subordinate relationally to the Father.

    *John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Cor. 1;3; Rev 1:6; 3:12: Jesus calls the Father "my God" because He is still man as well as God; notice the distinction between "my God" and "your God" in John 20:17 (i.e. Jesus never speaks of "our God" including Himself with the disciples)

    * Mark 13:32: Jeusus' statement that He did not know the time of His return is to be explained by His voluntary acceptance of the humble form and likeness of a man (Phil. 2:7); in fact Jesus as God did know all things (John 16:30), and after His resurrection He does not include Himself as not knowing (acts 1:6-7)

    *Mark 10:17-18: jesus does not deny being God, but simply tells the man he has no business calling anyone "good" in an unqualified sense except God.

    *Heb. 5:14: Jesus was tempted, cf James 1:13; but note that Jesus could not sin, John 5:19.

    *John 1:18: No one has seen God, but nem have seen Jesus, e.g., 1 John 1:1-2; but note that no man can see the glorified Jesus either, 1 Tim. 6:16, and that to see Jesus is to see the Father, John 14:9.

    *1 Tim. 1:17: God cannot die, but Jesus did, e.g., Phil. 2:8; but note that no one could take Jesus' life from Him, He could not remain dead, and He raised Himself: John 10:18; Acts 2:24; John 2:19-22

    *1 Cor. 8:6: Father called God, Jesus called LORD: but here "God" and "LORD" are synonymous (cf. v. 5); moreover, this text no more denies that Jesus is God than it does that the Father is LORD( Matt.11:25); cf. Jude 4, where Jesus is the only LORD.

    *1 Tim. 2:5: Jesus here is supposedly distinct from God: but Jesus is also distinct from (fallen) men, yet is Himself a man: likewise Jesus is distinct from God(the Father0, but is also God.

    *Deut. 4:12, 15-25: God did not appear in a human form to Isreal, lest they fall into idolatry: but this does not rule out His appearing in human form later after they had learned to abhor idolatry.

    *Prayer: John 14:14 (text debated, but in any case it is Jesus who answers the prayer); Acts 7:59-60 (cf. Luke 23:34, 46); Rom. 10:12-13, 1 cor. 1:2; etc.
     
  10. andy

    andy Member

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    Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Jesus was just baptized by John, Who was this voice from heaven? It was God.

    Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Jesus did not say our God our God, Jesus said my God. Jesus had a God?

    2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

    1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    Again Jesus has a God, not our God but the God of Jesus!

    Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    God raised Jesus.
     
  11. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    IF PEOPLE were to read the Bible from cover to cover without any preconceived idea of a Trinity, would they arrive at such a concept on their own? Not at all.




    What comes through very clearly to an impartial reader is that God alone is the Almighty, the Creator, separate and distinct from anyone else, and that Jesus, even in his prehuman existence, is also separate and distinct, a created being, subordinate toGod.​







    THE Bible teaching that God is one is called monotheism. And L. L. Paine, professor of ecclesiastical history, indicates that monotheism in its purest form does not allow for a Trinity: "The Old Testament is strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal being. The idea that a trinity is to be found there . . . is utterly without foundation."


    Was there any change from monotheism after Jesus came to the earth? Paine answers: "On this point there is no break between the Old Testament and the New. The monotheistic tradition is continued. Jesus was a Jew, trained by Jewish parents in the Old Testament scriptures. His teaching was Jewish to the core; a new gospel indeed, but not a new theology. . . . And he accepted as his own belief the great text of Jewish monotheism: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one God.’"​

    Those words are found at Deuteronomy 6:4. The Catholic New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) here reads: "Listen, Israel: Yahweh our God is the one, the only Yahweh." In the grammar of that verse, the word "one" has no plural modifiers to suggest that it means anything but one individual.​

    The Christian apostle Paul did not indicate any change in the nature of God either, even after Jesus came to the earth. He wrote: "God is only one."—Galatians 3:20; see also 1 Corinthians 8:4-6.​

    Thousands of times throughout the Bible, God is spoken of as one person. When he speaks, it is as one undivided individual. The Bible could not be any clearer on this. As God states: "I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory." (Isaiah 42:8)


     
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  12. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree with this. When I read the Bible, it seems clear that there is only one God with 3 distinct faces by which He reveals Himself to man. Jesus is God made man whose purpose was to sacrifice His "human" life for the sins of mankind. The Holy Spirit is the voice of God and convicts us (and encourages us) to walk the correct path.

    I think it's a difficult concept to get our heads around and I'm not even sure I totally understand it but I believe in one God. If Jesus is a separate entity as the son of God...then it appears we have more than one God....and that just isn't so in Christian belief.
     
  13. Dinogrrl

    Dinogrrl peeb!

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    Exactly what I believe.
    God is God...period. But since He's God, He can assume any form He wants at will. The three forms that we are familiar with are the ones that would be able to help us the most. They are not separate from one another...just reflections of God in different colors/textures of glass.
     
  14. SoliDeoGloria

    SoliDeoGloria Active Member

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    Thank you for reemphasizing the point I was trying to make.

    John 10:18(NASB): " No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own innitiative. I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to takie it up again. This commandment I recieved from my father."

    BTW, what happened to:

    I Just noticed that the only verse you posted on this subject of who raised Jesus from the dead, after I posted a few verses ,including quotes from Jesus, was a verse from Peter which would seem to contradict your concern over why
    .

    Another thing I have noticed through this thread is that we seem to be constantly throwing verses that might seem to contradict each other on the subject. If you feel that the Bible contradicts itself, then maybe we have been dealing with the wrong subject.

    Sincerely,
    SoliDeoGloria
     
  15. SoliDeoGloria

    SoliDeoGloria Active Member

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    First off, If we want to start naming names, I'll start with Norman Geisler who has been a professor of philosophy, theology, & Christian apologetics at many seminaries including Dallas theological seminary since at least the 70s, has written numurous books on those three subjects, and is now currently dean and professor of theology and apologetics at Southern Evangelical Seminary, would strongly disagree with Mr. Paine (Bakers Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics by Norman Geisler section on the trinity pg. 730-737).

    Besides that I didn't know we were on the subject of the trinity, especially when you consider that there are groups of people who believe that Jesus was indeed god with out believing in the trinity. The group is called Unitarian Pentecostals. Please try not to get us on a rabbit trail and stay on subject. It would be greatly appreciated.

    Sincerely,
    SoliDeoGloria
     
  16. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Do​
    the miracles performed by Jesus prove that he is God?





    Acts 10:34, 38, RS: "Peter opened his mouth and said: ‘ . . . God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power; . . . he went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.’" (So Peter did not conclude from the miracles that he observed that Jesus was God but, rather, that God was with Jesus. Compare Matthew 16:16, 17.)​

    John 20:30, 31, RS: "Now Jesus did many other signs ["miracles," TEV, Kx] in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name." (So the conclusion we should properly draw from the miracles is that Jesus is "the Christ," the Messiah, "the Son of God." The expression "Son of God" is very different from "God the Son.")​

    Pre-Christian prophets such as Elijah and Elisha performed miracles similar to those of Jesus. Yet that certainly is no proof that they were God.

     
  17. angellous_evangellous

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    Do you mean disagree here? I am sure that you do... just checking.
     
  18. Purity

    Purity Member

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    I'm not the greatest with bible text but I have read the bible and have read Jesus was God's son and man was made in God's image. But I also read you can get to God but only thru Jesus so in order to get to god you have to except Jesus his son he's like a link between man and god without him the link is broken.

    Now in bible school there was a song we were taught.
    God the father God the father
    God the son God the son
    God the holy spirit God the holy spirit
    Three in One Three in One
    So the church taught us GOD WAS all THREE
    But What I read from the bible Jesus was the son of God not God himself but I believe the song was trying to teach us that all things are connected to God therefore a part of God.

    :) Purity
     
  19. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    As a jew wouldn't he consider himself a son of G-d anyways?:sarcastic
     
  20. Purity

    Purity Member

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    I'm thinking more along the lines of Mary and the angel coming to her and telling her she will be with child God's only son. Not Jesus as a Jew.
     
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