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Jesus is not God

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by andy, Mar 13, 2005.

  1. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Linwood, i think you'd make a very good Gnostic ;).

    The fact is Yeshua never actually said he was God or God's only son, as far as i'm concerned only Yeshua's testimony is important, St. Paul could shout at me that Yeshua was God until he was blue in the face, i would not listen to him for he was not Yeshua, his opinion is his not mine.
     
  2. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Sure He did :).

    In Mk. 2, Jesus healed a pralytic man, and proclaimed "Your sins are forgiven." The people around Him objected, because "only God can forgive sins." Jesus responded, not by saying "I'm not God," but "which is easier to say to the paralytic, `Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, `Arise, take up your bed and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins...I say to you, arise take up your bed, and go to your house." He never denies the charge. Rather, he seems to emphasize His power to forgive sins.

    Christ declared that He "fulfilled" the Law, and used that authority to dictate a new way of interpreting it and understanding it. Starting in Mt. 5.21, He repeatedly quotes from the Law and says "You have heard that it was said to those of old," quotes a law, and proceeds to change something about the Law God gave by saying "but I say to you," not "thus saith the Lord," but "I." Who would He be to tamper with the Law of God if He were not the Lawgiver?

    In Mt 28.19, Christ commands that people baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." How, though, could these three be equated in one practice. That's a strong statement when instituting a religious ceremony.

    Jn. 3.13 says "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in Heaven." In the same Gospel, Jesus asserts "I and my Father are one." In the passage immediately following, and the people tried to stone him, saying "You being a man make yourself God." How does He respond? It wasn't by denying it, but by saying "Is it not written in your law, `I said, ``You are gods?''' If He called them gods to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God?' If I do not the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me and I in Him." The listeners didn't understand this as a denial either. They decided to follow through with stoning Him.

    The central ceremony of Christianity is the Eucharist where Christ asserted that followers were eating "His flesh" and drinking "His blood." Christ commanded this ceremony to be held after He left (Lk. 22.14ff.), and He asserted that the one that doesn't eat His flesh has no life in him (Jn 6.53ff.).

    So, Jesus did several things equating Him with God, and we have no record of Him ever denying it when it was put to Him ;).
     
  3. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Jesus Himself declared His divinity. I'll start with this from Matthew 22:

    "[41] While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
    [42] Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
    [43] He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
    [44] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
    [45] If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
    [46] And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions. (KJV)
     
  4. andy

    andy Member

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    Husband and wife are one, one in unity. Husband & wife are not one being.

    John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    You and I are also one in them, this does not make us gods because we are one in them. Also the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Jesus did not send himself.

    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
    Jesus declares the word you hear is not his but the father's who sent Jesus!!!

    John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

    John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    Jesus came from God, Jesus did not send himself.


     
  5. andy

    andy Member

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    It amazes me even in this day the word is used against Jesus. Jesus was accused of breaking the law when he healed(worked) on the Sabbath. Woman was caught in the act of cheating and the punishment was death and Jesus said no death, Jesus was told the law was death.

    John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Jesus was dead for 3 days and nights and yet was in heaven, Jesus was going to be with God.

    I will get many other scriptures to combat what Jesus stated in John 20:17, why is not what Jesus said enough? Many will quote what others have said but will not follow what Jesus stated. Please respond.
     
  6. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    :sarcastic sure it is...and my rabbi serves a freshly cooked ham on Shabbat...
    Isaiah isn't talking about one man...he is talking about the entire nation of Israel...
    in the verse just before this Rashi points out through the grammer in the hebrew...
    I can see though how it could be interpreted as being about Jesus...but...again that's not a traditionally jewish interpretation of this verse...
    It's talking about the redemption of Israel during the coming Messiahnic era...it is also discussing the coming of the destruction of the First Temple i think...
    And for the record...i've talked about this at great length...in the jewish mindset...Jesus of Nazerath is not the Moshiach ben David
     
  7. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    Hi andy and welcome to the forums....this is a tough topic...I'm not positive about any of it because of the different things in scripture so the way I believe is just a personal thing unless I find myself met with scripture that sends my mind in the direction of otherwise...I believe in the trinity mostly because Jesus called on His Father in the garden prior to His death 3 times...would one pray to oneself? He also said that you could not speak bad about the Holy Ghost and be forgiven but you could speak about Him and be forgiven...this leads me to believe that although they are seperate they are most definately of one thought. I will never claim to understand the Supreme because I have a human mind and not like the Lords which I don't feel we can fully understand until we meet God and He is made known to us in a fashion completely full of understanding. I don't feel we are to know all that is GOD...I don't feel the human mind is capeable of the awsomness of this great God that controls the all of His creations.:)
     
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  8. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Hey guys,

    I`m not ignoring this thread you`ve just all thrown alot of scripture out there and I`m trying to take a look at it in context so I`ll post something soon.

    By the way from what I`ve seen so far some of what Scott said immediately after my last post seems to have the most validity.
     
  9. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    I am the son of God, just as you are also the sons and daughters of God, why would jesus deny that?

    Jesus never says he is divine, i've looked, you can read whatever you like into his simple statements, its never going to change them into a declaration of his divinity.
     
  10. yaakov

    yaakov Member

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    I would just like to pass on a personal observation. never are we asked to believe that jesus is god, only the son of god :with the authority to forgive sins.
     
  11. yaakov

    yaakov Member

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    even when his authority to forgive sins was challanged he did not say that he was god . he only defended his authority to forgive sins by healing the man.
     
  12. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    And men are also called gods. The reason for this is because the Word came to them, and thus, they were made "God." The same type of language is used for Jesus' claims that He came that we may be one, even as He and the Father are one. He came that we may be gods, even as He and the Father are God. He came that we might have eternal life, which is knowledge of the Father. Mystical "oneness" in a marriage or in the Church can just as easily be an argument for the divinity of Christ ;).

    I also invite you to go participate in my debate, Christian: Why is Christ the what He is in John. It is essentially a biblical debate, but with very strict rules that prevents simply throwing out Bible verses to make points :). So far, there haven't been any takers.
     
  13. Halcyon

    Halcyon Lord of the Badgers

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    Sorry No*s, my post would be deleted.
     
  14. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I understand and sorry :eek:.

    I was sending it to him, because he's making a habit of quoting Jesus for "Jesus is not God," and the thread is a thread on that subject with very strict rules for interpretation. It's all too easy to simply throw out quotes. I originally put it in the Christian forums for the purpose of keeping it with an audience that would have a strong vested interest. At the time, there were no non-Christians who would. If I'd anticipated today's situation, I would've made it broader :eek:.
     
  15. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Not any more. Just abide by the rules :).
     
  16. andy

    andy Member

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    When Jesus was asked on how to pray, Jesus did not say pray to me the Son. Jesus replied pray to the Father. Jesus also answered the question where the Father was, the Father was not Jesus here on earth. Jesus told them how to pray.

    Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

    Jesus was doing God will here on earth, this did not make him God.
     
  17. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said to his Father: "I have made your name known to them [his true followers] and will make it known."—John 17:26 no jesus is not God, the bible is very consistent about who he is. Jesus himself said he was the son of God

    He said to them: "YOU, though, who do YOU say I am?" In answer Simon Peter said: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." In response Jesus said to him: "Happy you are, Simon son of Jo´nah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did. (MATTHEW 16; 16-17)

    do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son? (jOHN 10; 36)Yes no dought about it ,the bible tells us that Jesus is Gods son

     
  18. andy

    andy Member

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    When Jesus was on the cross and right before he died, he was not talking to himself, he was talking to God.

    Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Jesus is the Son of God, it is man who teaches Jesus is God.


     
  19. SoliDeoGloria

    SoliDeoGloria Active Member

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    Well, I didn't get much time tonight to read all the posts in this thread so I hope I don't sound like someone who is repeating what someone else already stated. On this particular subject, I have 2 favorite verses.

    The first one is John 8:58-59. While it takes a bit of understanding and studying to figure out what these verses mean, the message is still very clear. In verse 58 Jesus states "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am" which invoked a response by the jewish people questioning Him there to pick up stones to kill Him. Knowing Jewish history and the OT, one would remember Exodus 3:14 and how the term "I am was used by God as a name for Himself that the Jewish people were to recognize. With that being known, the obvious conclusion of what Jesus was implying was that He was God to Jewish People who heard very plainly what He was stating and decided to kill Him over it since according to their law, if He wasn't God as He had just stated, He was committing blasphemt in the worst sense and deserving of death.

    The next verse, Is Hebrews 1:8 " But of the Son He says, ' Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom." When taken in it's intended context, In a nutshell, It is God calling Jesus God which couldn't be any more plainer for me.

    One time I wrote The Christian Research Institute for info on this subject and they sent me an elaborate outline on it for free. It was quite exhaustive, so I have more info to contribute, but not a lot of time tonight. I hope it helps.

    Sincerely,
    SoliDeoGloria
     
  20. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Obviously, Jesus was not an ordinary human. He was unique because, as the Bible tells us, he enjoyed life in heaven before coming to the earth.

    because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me. (john 6; 38)
    Clearly, no Scriptural basis exists for the claim that Jesus is the same as Jehovah of the Hebrew Scriptures. "That Christ existed before His birth in Bethlehem does not in itself prove He was God In his prehuman existence, Jesus was "a god," or divine one, but not the God, the almighty God Jehovah.
    At John 8:58, the expression "I am" in connection with himself, saying, "Before Abraham was, I am." But here the expression is quite different from the one used at Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not use it as a name or title but simply as a means of explaining his prehuman existence. Thus, the more correct rendering of John 8:58 is: "Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.

    Jesus has been given authority to rule from his father
    And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. (matthew 28; 18)

    For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, (phillipians 2; 9)
    All things have been delivered to me by my Father(matthew 11; 27)
    And to him (Jesus)there were (given) rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.(daniel 7; 14)

     
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