Jesus is God?

[rocketman]

None whatsoever.....Just "Common Sense"...hence my avatar.

Recently in a different thread you implied to me that you are not a theist but an atheist. You can imagine my astonishment to see you still arguing for a strongly theistic position in yet another God/Jesus thread. Even more astonishing is that you dogmatically stick to one particular theistic intepretation as being 'correct', this despite you having been shown many times in other threads that your points fit in equally well with the other major interpretations, (in fact they require them). Yet still you choose one and only one in particular over and above the rest, answering other people's interpretation with your own as if it were fact.

You said to me in this thread (emphasis mine): "You and I have had long debates over the nature of Yeshua but If I didn't tell you, you'd think I was a theist. As I engage in a discussion/debate on this forum or anywhere else I treat others as though they actually believe the stuff in their books so I meet them on their level to discuss what they believe. In our discussions I never say that their prophets or deity(s) don't exist or never have. When a theist meets me on my level to discuss my views then you may hear me say some thing like that. As athiest we should respect your lifestyle.....but we reserve the right disagree with you."

I don't need my hand to be held thanks. Debate forums are for debating, not posturing! Debate forums are a place for atheists to disagree with theists, so what are you ashamed of?? If you are intellectually honest you will come out swinging for what you believe in; but therein lies the problem: You see, one might even think that you are simply adopting a position for the sake of argument and debating it, but there is no evidence of this, quite the contrary, because you still pick a specific theistic position and run with it - the last thing you are arguing for is atheism! If you are true to not being a theist then you should reject all of the theistic positions presented here, otherwise, I for one will believe you to be a theist.

 

[Muffled]

Rubbish.......:sarcastic


The fact that he has to pray for it means he's not God......

Are you saying that God has all that He wants? Is everyone calling God Holy and obeying Him? And who will God pray to? Will God pray to you for you to move men's hearts?

But let us say that God doesn't have to pray. It is still reasonable to say that Jesus is God in the flesh and that He prays only to provide an example to His disciples.

What do you object to in my statement for you to call it rubbish? Are you saying that I am wrong and that everyone is one with God and everyhting is perfect in this world?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Recently in a different thread you implied to me that you are not a theist but an atheist. You can imagine my astonishment to see you still arguing for a strongly theistic position in yet another God/Jesus thread. Even more astonishing is that you dogmatically stick to one particular theistic intepretation as being 'correct', this despite you having been shown many times in other threads that your points fit in equally well with the other major interpretations, (in fact they require them). Yet still you choose one and only one in particular over and above the rest, answering other people's interpretation with your own as if it were fact.

Then it shows how little you know. It's not a "theistic" view at all. It's a thelogical view, and even an intellectual view. One does not have to be a theist to debate on a subject he or she understands. I don't have to believe in anything you believe in...in order to debate the subject. The subject here is "Jesus is God" and it has been placed in the "Biblical Debates" area. There was no criteria...stating theist only...or believers only. Since you take issue with me debating with you then you have the choice to not debate with me. Now......I have studied your book backward and forward. I might, occasionally, miss a thing or two but I know your book...as well as the quran....and I do not have to be a theist to hold an intelligent debate over something as simple as this subject.

You said to me in this thread (emphasis mine): "You and I have had long debates over the nature of Yeshua but If I didn't tell you, you'd think I was a theist. As I engage in a discussion/debate on this forum or anywhere else I treat others as though they actually believe the stuff in their books so I meet them on their level to discuss what they believe. In our discussions I never say that their prophets or deity(s) don't exist or never have. When a theist meets me on my level to discuss my views then you may hear me say some thing like that. As athiest we should respect your lifestyle.....but we reserve the right disagree with you."

I don't see what the problem is. Look, I highlighted everything for you. I know you believe what you do but in this debate, that aside, there is no information in the four gospels Yeshua claimed he was God nor is it something that he taught his followers. We are strictly talking about the book.....not whether or not there was a historical Yeshua.

You will most certainly be able to find another christian who does not hold to your interpretation of the bible.....do you take issue with him as well when he argues against the trinitarian view? One can either be a theist or a non-theist to debate these dogmatic views you hold.

I don't need my hand to be held thanks. Debate forums are for debating, not posturing!

Who's posturing here? Certainly not me. I'm simply responding to a topic. You seem to take issue with it...or with me...or maybe it's your dislike for atheist. Whatever it is you'll have to work it out for yourself.

Debate forums are a place for atheists to disagree with theists

This debate forum offers a lot.....from games, to movies and a host of other topics atheist are involved in. So I don't see what the problem is......

so what are you ashamed of?? If you are intellectually honest you will come out swinging for what you believe in;

Ahhh.....you want me to take sides but when I argue my position you take issue with me. Again..... your scripture have not and do not reveal Yeshua to be God. I say this because every place and quote you all bring up.....has nothing to do with him stating he was or teaching his followers he was. All of these biblical quotes that are brought up to prove he is are, in most cases, out of context but seemed to be backed up only by church traditions. And here it is... you thinking I'm the only one disagreeing with you because I'm an atheist.....when there are plenty of your own christian bretheren who disagree and dispise trinitarian teachings. The difference with me is I don't despise it...I just disagree with it (Observe my quote you've provided).

but therein lies the problem: You see, one might even think that you are simply adopting a position for the sake of argument and debating it, but there is no evidence of this, quite the contrary, because you still pick a specific theistic position and run with it

Or can it be that I simply disagree with you? Can it just be that simple?

- the last thing you are arguing for is atheism! If you are true to not being a theist then you should reject all of the theistic positions presented here, otherwise, I for one will believe you to be a theist.

I can't control what you believe. The problem with you is that you think I should make a choice as to what discussions I should be involved in. It's not for you to decide these matters. I do whatever I feel like doing...regardless of your approval or not......I have no problem, as you have seen, picking up your book and discussing what is written in it. I will continue to do it.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Are you saying that God has all that He wants? Is everyone calling God Holy and obeying Him? And who will God pray to? Will God pray to you for you to move men's hearts?

Interesting how none of this has anything to do with the topic. I'm not sure what you want me to do with these.

But let us say that God doesn't have to pray. It is still reasonable to say that Jesus is God in the flesh and that He prays only to provide an example to His disciples.

So we're back to making assumptions? Other than Lazarus...I'm not sure of any other place where Yeshua was praying to his god to set an example. If that were the case then he could have left out the actual instructions on how to pray to God. And..so when he was praying, crying and begging his god to spare his life...you say that was for the benefit of the sleeping disciples and not himself?

What do you object to in my statement for you to call it rubbish?

I already said why...

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Dirty Penguin:
This is not a claim to deity. The very first verse should give you a tip...... "You believe in God now believe in me".......(some bibles say.....You believe in God then believe in me as well)

You interpret everything in John according to what your opinion about Jesus' Deity already is...You like to point out that Jesus is a portrayed as a separate person, and I never disagreed. This is why the Early Church came out so harshly against modalism- the text does not support the idea that Jesus is just a form that God has temporarily taken up in order to reveal himself.

What we are talking about is the nature of Jesus. Where does he come from? What is his origin? What is his essence? The Gospel of John lays down that Jesus is con-substantial with God. God and Jesus are of "the same being". Jesus is the Eternal Word, existing as the Only Begotten in the Bosom of the Father, the agent of creation (ie. Lord over the Sabbath)

He shares in God's essential qualities- he is the Way, the Truth and the Life, he is the one whom through all things receive their life.

So, if we are going to speak about context over and over again, let us begin with the initial context of the Gospel:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....

...The Word became flesh and dwelt among us

...What came into being in him was life and that life is the light of men....

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (New American Standard Bible)

Dirty Penguin
Well, to me, Paul's opinions mean very little to me since he never met Yeshua...rather claimed he heard his voice....

Two things here. First, in another thread you accused Christians of foolishly mis-interpreting their own Scriptures. I think you are going to have to suspend that claim if you are going to ignore some authors of that Scripture and not others.

Secondly, Paul says that Jesus is "in the form of God" and that "in Jesus the fullness of God dwells in bodily form"....John says Jesus is the "Only Begotten God (Son?) in the bosom of the Father" and that Jesus, is "the Word-God made flesh".

You are asking me to believe that the two authors have nothing similar in mind?

 

[rocketman]

One does not have to be a theist to debate on a subject he or she understands.

No one is asking you to stop. But as I pointed out, you are using a theist's argument, not an atheist's argument. This is not a simple matter of say, highlighting one scripture to show a supposed contradiction with another. This is very different. But I suspect you are having trouble seeing why because you still don't 'get' the counter-argument, that is, you need to accept the fact that there is no absolute technical reason to accept one interpretation over the other, given that both interpretations use exactly the same scriptures to support their view. That is where a true atheist would come in and say that it is all false because what they are based on is false. You've admitted it yourself: "if I didn't tell you you'd think I was a theist". Thus you water down atheism and lift up the theists who have developed your arguments for you.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You interpret everything in John according to what your opinion about Jesus' Deity already is...

I do not.....:sarcastic.....I did not nor do I start out by interpreting or believing that Yeshua is not God. This understanding is right there in the four gospels and most of it from himself....Yeshua does not inform his followers he's God nor can we find it in his teachings.

You like to point out that Jesus is a portrayed as a separate person, and I never disagreed.

I don't think I've ever said Yeshua was a "seperate person"....I could be wrong though. I think I've have maintained Yeshua and his god are "seperate".....I can't remember If I've ever said (person).

What we are talking about is the nature of Jesus. Where does he come from? What is his origin?

I agree that in the book of John those answers are right there but none of them have anything with Yeshua being God...rather his god sending him to earth with a task.

Where does he come from?
Yeshua said he came from heaven.....but not to come here to do his (own) seperate will but the will of his god that (sent) him.

What is his origin? What is his essence?
Yeshua said he existed and had glory (with) his god bfore his god created the world.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

No one is asking you to stop. But as I pointed out, you are using a theist's argument, not an atheist's argument. This is not a simple matter of say, highlighting one scripture to show a supposed contradiction with another. This is very different.

You can interpret it how you like. For me...and I can only speak for me...it's not a theistic argument. I'm not arguing this from a theistic point of view. As I have studied these gospels I can find no where in them where Yeshua said he was God nor any place where he taught his disciples he was God. That's theological not theistic.

But I suspect you are having trouble seeing why because you still don't 'get' the counter-argument, that is, you need to accept the fact that there is no absolute technical reason to accept one interpretation over the other, given that both interpretations use exactly the same scriptures to support their view.

We are involved in a circular argument. We are 466 and counting post...into this. Where do you suppose it will stop? I have no problem agreeing to disagree and leave it at that.

That is where a true atheist would come in and say that it is all false because what they are based on is false.

Define "true atheist".......Atheist debate with theist all the time over religious dogma. Just because I won't satify you in saying I don't believe in any of it.. means nothing. You choose to debate because that is what you want to do...as do I. I'm not the kind of atheist that barge in hit you with a post or two about how I believe it all to be false then roll out. There are some that do that...but not me. I can have an itellectual discussion with a theist as to what they believe and put forth information that does not fit that belief.....Additionally...I think I would get a slap on the rist from mods, staff, admins about barging in and making pointless comments all the time.

You've admitted it yourself: "if I didn't tell you you'd think I was a theist".

And..?.....It's the truth....You said it yourself....that you were astonished that after you found out I am an atheist I would continue these kinds of debates. Here's a bit of background....I've been an atheist as long as I can remember but I grew up in a family, not just immediate family, of heveily religious people (christian and muslim). Debate is something we do alot but we have a lot of respect for each others way of life. So for me.....I will debate on this type of topic and any others that intrest me until I am bored with this site. You have the choice of debating with me, not debating with me or adding me to an ignore list or what ever you choose is the right thing for you.

Thus you water down atheism and lift up the theists who have developed your arguments for you.

I have no idea what you mean here.....How does one "water down atheism"?......and who are these theist that have "developed my arguments" for me......?...

 

[rocketman]

You can interpret it how you like. For me...and I can only speak for me...it's not a theistic argument. I'm not arguing this from a theistic point of view. As I have studied these gospels I can find no where in them where Yeshua said he was God nor any place where he taught his disciples he was God. That's theological not theistic.

Your entire argument is a theist's argument and is used by several churches. You've already admitted that there are believers who reject the trinity doctrine. Their justifications are no different than yours.

We are involved in a circular argument. We are 466 and counting post...into this. Where do you suppose it will stop? I have no problem agreeing to disagree and leave it at that.

And this is the crux right here! You know very well from the previous 3 or 4 similar threads that whatever scripture you roll out I can show you how it also supports the counter-argument. If you can admit this and you really are an atheist then you would stop arguing for that particular, specific theist's argument and reject them all.

Just because I won't satify you in saying I don't believe in any of it.. means nothing.

I couldn't care what you believe. Stop the 'you/me' stuff already.

I have no idea what you mean here.....How does one "water down atheism"?

By what you have been doing. You admit that you come across as a theist, yet you claim to be an atheist. By using a well known theist's argument you give to the former while subtracting from the latter.

......and who are these theist that have "developed my arguments" for me......?...

Every argument you have rolled out has been around for as long as Christianity itself.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Your entire argument is a theist's argument and is used by several churches.

I see...So I fit a mold. Most of these arguments start out asking if Yeshua said he was God. Then normally people chime in as to why they think he is or not. All start quoting from the book....and face it...there is no other information on the planet as to what is attributed to what he said other than in the book. I come in to the room and say....as I see it.. the biblical Yeshua......, really...no other credible evidence is available other than the book,.........he never once said he was God nor was something he taught his followers. This is srtickly going by the information contained in the book. You seem to keep wanting to tell me this is a theistic view but I can assure you...it's purely theological.

You've already admitted that there are believers who reject the trinity doctrine. Their justifications are no different than yours.

That's fine by me. What's the problem?

And this is the crux right here! You know very well from the previous 3 or 4 similar threads that whatever scripture you roll out I can show you how it also supports the counter-argument.

Heck, all I've been saying is that I disagree with your interpretation.

If you can admit this and you really are an atheist then you would stop arguing for that particular, specific theist's argument and reject them all.

Here we go again.....Where did I ever say I accepted any of it as fact. I never did. All I have said is...given what is written there is nothing there to suggest that Yeshua ever claimed to be God nor was it ever something he taught his followers. What should I reject? If you go back to my first response to Khale (or response in general) there is none of this (well I believe this or I believe that) I started out by saying the NT scripture say......I can comment or debate those books as I see fit.

I couldn't care what you believe. Stop the 'you/me' stuff already.

All was good until (you) responded to (me) in post 461........I'm just sayin'......

By what you have been doing. You admit that you come across as a theist, yet you claim to be an atheist.

Yes.....and your point again?......I am an atheist....but should I be precluded from responding to post like this or should I be free to respond how I like (as long as it is within forum rules)?

By using a well known theist's argument you give to the former while subtracting from the latter.

It does no such thing. As I stated earlier...there are plenty of atheist who engage theist in theological debates or who have commented on the bible and/or Yeshua. Just look around the web and you will find a lot of them.

The Evangelical Atheist

About Atheists for Jesus

While they do not speak for all atheist it is to show that there are some out there who comment extensively on Yeshua.......

Every argument you have rolled out has been around for as long as Christianity itself.

ok.....?????

 

[rocketman]

Heck, all I've been saying is that I disagree with your interpretation.

I'm not talking about disagreeing or otherwise. I've accepted that you probably never will understand the counter-argument. You've never shown any hint that you do and I don't expect it now. That's ok! Each to his own.

Yes.....and your point again?......I am an atheist....but should I be precluded from responding to post like this or should I be free to respond how I like (as long as it is within forum rules)?

If a sportsman gives away points to the other side, the other side won't complain. If you, as an atheist, are happy arguing for the doctrine of several of the minor branches of christianity (which is what you do, perhaps unintentionally), then hey, ultimately I'm happy for you. Peace dude.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I'm not talking about disagreeing or otherwise. I've accepted that you probably never will understand the counter-argument. You've never shown any hint that you do and I don't expect it now. That's ok! Each to his own.

Disagreeing and understanding are two completely separate things. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I don't understand. I'm not the only one....atheist or otherwise. But you are right...("to each his own")....If you believe it then fine. I have absolutely no problem if you believe it. It's only for the sake of this theological discussion I disagree with the interpretation.

If a sportsman gives away points to the other side, the other side won't complain. If you, as an atheist, are happy arguing for the doctrine of several of the minor branches of christianity (which is what you do, perhaps unintentionally), then hey, ultimately I'm happy for you. Peace dude.

No one is arguing for any sect of christianity but you. I'm discussing the interpretations made suggesting he is God and the information in the 4 gospels do not show that he is.

Peace to you as well.

 

[Muffled]

Disagreeing and understanding are two completely separate things. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I don't understand. I'm not the only one....atheist or otherwise. But you are right...("to each his own")....If you believe it then fine. I have absolutely no problem if you believe it. It's only for the sake of this theological discussion I disagree with the interpretation.



No one is arguing for any sect of christianity but you. I'm discussing the interpretations made suggesting he is God and the information in the 4 gospels do not show that he is.

Peace to you as well.

It must be difficult for an atheist. It is much more difficult to explain away a god who shows up in the flesh than one you can't see or hear. But then people who do not wish to believe in a God have no trouble explaining away whatever they please. A person who wishes to believe something will never be dissuaded by the facts.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

It must be difficult for an atheist.

Not at all. If it were I wouldn't be one.....

It is much more difficult to explain away a god who shows up in the flesh than one you can't see or hear.

Your presumption is that the 4 gospels say that it did. And so far they do not report such an event.

But then people who do not wish to believe in a God have no trouble explaining away whatever they please.

What's your point here? It's not as though the non believers in deities are the only ones who explain it away...there are believers in your god who disagree with your intepretations as well....:sarcastic

A person who wishes to believe something will never be dissuaded by the facts.

Not dissuaded by "facts" rather your interpretations.

 

[lockyfan]

I dont for a second believe that Jesus is the Almighty God, I do believe he came to the earth, but this is because I have read the prophecies in the bible and know that almost all of them have ocured already, so I know that Christs reign as King will be here soon

 

[IF_u_knew]

I know that there are a good many christians out their who believe that those who follow the jewish religion need to be saved because they do not worship Jesus. So, quick question:

Jesus is God(YHWH). It seems to me that we are worshipping the same deity. Am I correct? Why or why not?

I have not read through all the replies and will do so later when I have more time.. just wanted to go ahead and say that if one worships Jesus as God, they are, in the same token, making God out to be a liar and thus, not worshiping the Creator (rather the creation).

Num 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Hosea 11: 9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Isa 45:21-22
...there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa 42:8
I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Jesus agreed in John 4:24 that God was not a man when he said "God is a spirit..."

To even claim Jesus as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind is to put God in the category not to be trusted since the Word of God says,

Psa 49:7-9
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever: ) That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.

Ezek 18:20-21,27
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Deut 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

WHAT GOD DECLARED:

Eccl 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Eccl 3:14
I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Malachi 3: 6 "I, the LORD, do not change..."

 

[kjw47]

Hi Friends, Jesus himself answers the question -- Who is God-- At John 17:1-6 Jesus is praying to the Father. And in # 3 Jesus calls the Father-- The only true God-- At Revelation 3:12 Jesus is speaking and stresses to all who can read 4 times in one paragraph that He has a God. At 1 Corinthians8:6 Paul was teaching that there was one God to all The Father. Psalm 83:18 tells it all. The name Jesus made known in John 17: 1-6 Gods truth does not teach two different messages. There is one truth.

 

[Truid]

Please, elaborate on this (preferably in lower case). Why is Christ less than God? Why is he a god? Are you suggesting that there are multiple gods?

I think "Josef the prophet" is a member of the Watchtower group aka Jehovah's Witnesses and they teach that Jesus is a mighty god but not God Almighty. Hope that makes sense.

 

[Truid]

"Please, elaborate on this (preferably in lower case). Why is Christ less than God? Why is he a god? Are you suggesting that there are multiple gods?"

There is only one God.
He is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
He is a singular entity with a singular personality.

That is one view. But not the only one.

Trinitarians try to make God three persons in one God - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
This is impossible, since a son cannot be his own father and God has no father, therefore the son cannot be The Father.

Nice strawman you've knocked down. But Trinitarians do NOT "try to make God three persons in one God". Rather, we take the evidence as presented in the Bible and draw our beliefs from it. The Bible clearly states that there is one God. The Bible identifies this one God as the "Father". The Bible also identifies Jesus as that same God. And finally, the Bible identifies the Holy Spirit as that same God. So, using the ability to reason (that God gave us) we conclude that God is one who is also three in person. If God were only one person then that would bring up too many anachronisms within the NT (dialogue between Jesus and His Father for example).

In a way however, you can say Jesus IS God.
His Father is God, and since he has no blood/substance in him other than God's (Mary was nothing more than an incubator for the flesh body that became Jesus the man) therefore he is God ENTIRELY. The Bible says that Jesus' Father is the Holy Ghost (therefore if God is Jesus' Father, then God IS the Holy Spirit/Ghost, but NOT the second person of the Godhead, otherwise God is a schizo!)

First, Mary was more than just an "incubator" :areyoucra I suppose you think your mother was must an "incubator" for you and any siblings you may have? Hmmm? Jesus is God (not the Father and not the Holy Ghost). God is not "a schizo". That would only apply if God were only one person and were mortal (like us). I don't understand why you would say Jesus didn't have blood. What was it that He shed for our sins if not His own blood?

His LIFE however is his own (John 5:26 explicitly states this), and is very much separate to his Father's.

He is the complete and full expression of God - that's why Jesus said 'if you see me you've seen the Father'.

So he is equal to God, but is not God, since (once more the the dumb ones) you can't be your own Father and there is only ONE God!

You contradict yourself. Jesus is God, just not the same person as the Father. God is not a human being. God is a different kind of being than us. God has a tri-personal nature whereas we only have a uni-personal nature. God is infinite while we are finite. God is perfect where we are imperfect. To try and force God into Man's image is folly. And that is what I see you are trying to do here.

 

[akshaypareek]

jesus was a good peson .