Jesus - First Born?

[amazing grace]

This is what I said in post #712
The continuing context is that the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus because He said "I and the Father are one". That is not something that would happen with Jesus just claiming to be in harmony with God.

John 10:38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

The Jews did not understand what Jesus said to mean "united, in unity".
When He said that He and the Father are one they understood that to me that He was claiming to be God.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Jesus asked why, when all He was doing was claiming to be the Son of God.
This would not have been a problem as the Kings of Israel were sons of God and the Messiah was to be the Son of God.
But when He said that He was in the Father and the Father was in Him, that became blasphemy for them also.

John 10:36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

All the way through John's gospel it is not that Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God, but was the type of Son that He was claiming to be.
The Sonship of Jesus is not that of a created being, it is the Sonship of someone who is not only begotten but who remains in His Father and His Father remains in Him. He and His Father are one thing. United does not work in the context of what was understood by Jesus Jewish opponents.
In the end it seems to have been the type of Son He was claiming, which got Him condemned. He was claiming equality with God.

Matt 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need?

This would have made them think of the Lord of David in Psalm 110 and the one who is coming to execute judgement, YHWH.
Thomas claimed "My Lord and My God" and John said a few verses later that the gospel was written so that people would believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and be saved.
The Son of God in John's gospel and the other gospels is someone we can call "My Lord and my God".

I understand the story of John 10 and I understand the unbelieving religious leaders did not believe Jesus, a man, to be the Messiah.
To be IN someone is NOT being that SAME SOMEONE. We are IN Christ but doesn't make us Christ.
Jesus never claimed to be equal to God - he did not grasp at equality with God. It was the unbelieving Jews in their misunderstanding that claimed Jesus was making himself God.
Yes, the purpose of John's gospel was so that we may believe that Jesus is the Christ (God's Messiah) the SON of God, and by believing we have life in his name.
Let me ask you something - If one believes that Jesus is God and not the human Messiah, the Son of God, who was sent by God, who came from God - is that person denying Christ? If Christ is not the Son but is God Himself is that denying the Messiah, the Christ? If Jesus has a God, how can he be God?

This seems to be equating the Spirit of God with the Spirit of Christ. Jesus did breathe on His disciples (John 20:22) and thereby gave them the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, i.e. God's Spirit - it is who God is.
The Spirit of Christ is not "THE Holy Spirit" - it is just as it says - the Spirit of Christ, i.e. Christ's spirit.
Christ IN you the hope of glory - the hope of resurrected life - we believe in Christ and receive "the righteousness of God" (spiritually) and because of that we have eternal life and God who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to us through his Spirit - the gift of holy spirit by which dwells in us and by which we are sealed until the day of redemption.

John 20:22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

There are many passages where we see the Holy Spirit is as much the Spirit of God as it is the Spirit of Christ. Here are a few.
Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Philippians 1:19
for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

1 Peter 1:11
seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

Acts 16:7
and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;

In the Spirit of God dwells the Father and the Son and it is through the Spirit dwelling in us that the Father and Son dwell in us.
John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in
you.
John 14:23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

There is one Spirit, the Holy Spirit who lives in us and is called the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Truth (Jesus being the Truth) and the Spirit of Christ and the other Advocate whom Jesus was going to send.
After being a man on earth Jesus ascended to fill the universe. (Eph 4:10)

God was in Christ - Christ is in us - so God in Christ dwells in us through the gift of Holy Spirit making us one body.
For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body and all made to drink of one Spirit - the gift of holy spirit Jesus poured out on the day of Pentecost - that's what was meant in John 7:38,39 Whoever believes in me, as the scripture has said, Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. Now this he said about the spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the spirit had not been given because Jesus was not yet glorified. and this: I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ and this: Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sin, and you will receive the gift of the holy spirit.

There are many things to say about Jesus but I should stop when you don't even believe Jesus when He said that He was in heaven with His Father and came down from heaven to earth.
Try believing the straight forward passages instead of changing the meaning.

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The testimony that God has borne concerning his Son was NOT that God was taking on flesh. God NEVER told the prophets that HE was coming into the world in the flesh to be HIS own Messiah, HIS own Son, i.e. God the Son. Nope, all along God's Son, God's chosen one, God's servant, God's Messiah was to be a prophet like Moses, out from among his (Moses') brothers, i.e. an Israelite - that was the man, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus himself never said he was God - He NEVER taught that he was God but always said God was his Father and that he could do nothing on his own meaning he was NOT equal to God his Father. The apostles NEVER preached that Jesus was God but always distinguished God from Jesus - so who is not believing God and making him a liar? Maybe you should stop and think about what it really means to be "antichrist".

 

[Soapy]

I understand the story of John 10 and I understand the unbelieving religious leaders did not believe Jesus, a man, to be the Messiah.
To be IN someone is NOT being that SAME SOMEONE. We are IN Christ but doesn't make us Christ.
Jesus never claimed to be equal to God - he did not grasp at equality with God. It was the unbelieving Jews in their misunderstanding that claimed Jesus was making himself God.
Yes, the purpose of John's gospel was so that we may believe that Jesus is the Christ (God's Messiah) the SON of God, and by believing we have life in his name.
Let me ask you something - If one believes that Jesus is God and not the human Messiah, the Son of God, who was sent by God, who came from God - is that person denying Christ? If Christ is not the Son but is God Himself is that denying the Messiah, the Christ? If Jesus has a God, how can he be God?

the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit, i.e. God's Spirit - it is who God is.
The Spirit of Christ is not "THE Holy Spirit" - it is just as it says - the Spirit of Christ, i.e. Christ's spirit.
Christ IN you the hope of glory - the hope of resurrected life - we believe in Christ and receive "the righteousness of God" (spiritually) and because of that we have eternal life and God who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to us through his Spirit - the gift of holy spirit by which dwells in us and by which we are sealed until the day of redemption.

God was in Christ - Christ is in us - so God in Christ dwells in us through the gift of Holy Spirit making us one body.
For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body and all made to drink of one Spirit - the gift of holy spirit Jesus poured out on the day of Pentecost - that's what was meant in John 7:38,39 Whoever believes in me, as the scripture has said, Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. Now this he said about the spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the spirit had not been given because Jesus was not yet glorified. and this: I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ and this: Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sin, and you will receive the gift of the holy spirit.

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

The testimony that God has borne concerning his Son was NOT that God was taking on flesh. God NEVER told the prophets that HE was coming into the world in the flesh to be HIS own Messiah, HIS own Son, i.e. God the Son. Nope, all along God's Son, God's chosen one, God's servant, God's Messiah was to be a prophet like Moses, out from among his (Moses') brothers, i.e. an Israelite - that was the man, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus himself never said he was God - He NEVER taught that he was God but always said God was his Father and that he could do nothing on his own meaning he was NOT equal to God his Father. The apostles NEVER preached that Jesus was God but always distinguished God from Jesus - so who is not believing God and making him a liar? Maybe you should stop and think about what it really means to be "antichrist".

100% correct.

• “I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.” (Eph 1:17)

 

[paarsurrey]

IN Christ

What does one mean from " IN Christ ", please?
Does one mean the following literally and physically not allegorically, please, right??:
"Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was born in the manger, died on the cross, and rose from the dead, lives by His Spirit in the soul of every Christian believer. We call this being “in Christ.” "

What Being "In Christ" Means - Open the Bible Open the Biblehttps://openthebible.org › Articles​

 

[amazing grace]

What does one mean from " IN Christ ", please?
Does one mean the following literally and physically not allegorically, please, right??:
"Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was born in the manger, died on the cross, and rose from the dead, lives by His Spirit in the soul of every Christian believer. We call this being “in Christ.” "

What Being "In Christ" Means - Open the Bible View attachment 85752Open the Biblehttps://openthebible.org › Articles​

"IN Christ", to me, is to be in union, to be joined with Christ. God in Christ, Christ in us therefore the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwell in us through the gift God has given us - the gift of holy spirit to empower us to live as Christ lived.

 

[Soapy]

"IN Christ", to me, is to be in union, to be joined with Christ. God in Christ, Christ in us therefore the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwell in us through the gift God has given us - the gift of holy spirit to empower us to live as Christ lived.

In Mathematics it’s called ‘Set Theory’…. A set of objects bounded by an edge. In our case everything within the bound is ‘Of God’ and contains all that GOD is… except that if there is an INNER BOUNDED SET then all things within that inner bound are restricted by some LIMITATION FACTOR such that NOT ALL OF ‘GOD’ is within those things in the inner bound. This inner bounded set contains ONE HUMAN BEING: Jesus Christ - Son of God.

And there is a further INNER BOUNDED SET within the Set of Jesus Christ with the similar constraints as the previous sets.

Therefore Jesus being ‘In God: In the Father’ cannot mean that Jesus IS GOD: The Father but only that Jesus ‘contains’ MUCH of what God:The Father, is. They agree - everything that the Father believes is what Jesus believes.

Similarly the apostles who are IN JESUS are also IN GOD:The Father…!!! They all agree….

It does not mean that the Apostles ARE JESUS… it doesn’t mean that the apostles ARE GOD: The Father… That the apostles are IN JESUS and thereby also IN GOD:The Father.

• “I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.” (John 17:22-23)

 

[Muffled]

The pre human Jesus is called "The Word" at John 1:1.
All things were brought into existence through the Word (John 1:3) just as the world/universe was made through the Son. (Heb 1:2)
So the Word is the pre human Son of God.

I believe that is false. It does not state that. It states the Word became flesh. John 1:14.

 

[Muffled]

The pre human Jesus is called "The Word" at John 1:1.
All things were brought into existence through the Word (John 1:3) just as the world/universe was made through the Son. (Heb 1:2)
So the Word is the pre human Son of God.

I believe that is false. It does not state that. It states the Word became flesh. John 1:14.

The word - God's word - when God spoke . . . all things were brought into existence . . . with the purpose in mind, for this reason, love, service, obedience - that failed because man sinned against God - therefore when the fulness of time came, God sent his Son, his only begotten So, via a miraculous conception. The world (aion - the age, a period of time, there is a different word for the inhabited world) that was made through the Son is the age after the resurrection. That is scriptural.

I believe I haven't seen such a verse.

 

[Muffled]

John 8:58
"Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."



By whose standards?

I would suppose by pure imagination.

 

[Brian2]

I believe that is false. It does not state that. It states the Word became flesh. John 1:14.

Yes the Word was spirit and became flesh, iow became a man.
NIV Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

So it was through His Son that God made the universe.
This matches John 1:1-3
The Word is the Son and was the Son in the beginning.
NIV John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

 

[amazing grace]

I believe that is false. It does not state that. It states the Word became flesh. John 1:14.

I believe I haven't seen such a verse.

Can you be more specific? As in - point out what was said that wasn’t scriptural (from or related to the Bible).

 

[Soapy]

Yes the Word was spirit and became flesh, iow became a man.
NIV Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

So it was through His Son that God made the universe.
This matches John 1:1-3
The Word is the Son and was the Son in the beginning.
NIV John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

If I give you my word, the word of Soapy, am I giving you my ‘Son’?

If I give you my word, does it not mean that I will do as I have stated in that word?

God spoke the word, the word of God, saying, ‘Let the world be created’ (the effect of his saying) AND IT WAS SO!!

• Every WORD that comes forth from the mouth of God will surely not return to him until it has fulfilled that which if was sent to achieve…

God said that, in time, would come forth a deliverer - the Messiah… and, in the fullness of time GOD SENT FORTH his Son .., BORN OF A WOMAN….

Note that God did not SEND FORTH A CHILD… he SENT FORTH his Son… WHO WAS BORN of a woman… God sent forth THE MAN, Jesus Christ, who was BORN OF A WOMAN, the SEED OF A WOMAN…

And he was not ‘Jesus Christ’ when he was born… He was, for 30 years, just ‘Jesus, the son of Joseph, of Nazareth’. But when he was 30 years old God’s Spirit led him to be baptised by his cousin, John the Baptist, at the river Jordan. It was there that God declared Jesus to be his Son, and, BAPTISED HIM not with water, which only washes away filth from the body, but with the HOLIEST OF SPIRIT, GOD’s Spirit, the Oil of Gladness, which came down on Jesus in the manner of a Dove, light and gentle fluttering breeze, resting upon him to fulfil what was prophesied by the prophet Isaiah saying:

• God saying: “Behold my Servant, MY CHOSEN ONE, in whom I am well pleased - I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT ON HIM and he was achieve all that I desire.’ (Paraphrased from Isaiah 42:1)

And also from Acts 10:37-8 wherein an apostles declares that THE MAN Jesus of Nazareth was ANOINTED BY GOD with the SPIRIT OF GOD and with power and how AFTERWARDS,Jesus Went around doing good, healing all who came to him.

GOD SENT JESUS CHRIST AFTER he anointed Jesus with Holy Spirit and with power.

Also, GOD only SPOKE THROUGH JESUS after Jesus was tested in the wilderness. The first sabbath day after returning from the wilderness Jesus DECLARED the scriptures fulfilled concerning GOD’s WORD about him:

• ‘This day this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing’ (Luke 4:21)

 

[Soapy]

Yes the Word was spirit and became flesh…

To ‘Become flesh’ means ‘To come to fruition’, ‘To come to fulfilment’.

The ‘Word of God’, which was that God would send a Saviour, CAME TO FRUITION.

But how do you distinguish ‘Word of God’ from ‘Word of God’ in saying that one means ‘The word God spoke’ and in another means ‘A man…’ (in your case, a Spirit Being who was WITH GOD when GOD said,’I and I alone, created all things’:

• ‘This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the YHWH, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself…’ (Isaiah 44:24)
• ‘I am the YHWH, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God’ (Isaiah 45:5

And ‘Word of God’:

• “1These are the words of Jeremiah son of Hilkiah, one of the priests from the town of Anathoth in the land of Benjamin. 2YHWH first gave messages to Jeremiah during the thirteenth year of the reign of Josiah son of Amon, king of Judah.a 3YHWH’s messages continued throughout the reign of King Jehoiakim, Josiah’s son, until the eleventh year of the reign of King Zedekiah, another of Josiah’s sons. In Augustb of that eleventh year the people of Jerusalem were taken away as captives.
  Jeremiah’s Call and First Visions
  
  4YHWH gave me this message:
  
  5“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.” (In-depth discussion on the bolded point?)
  
  6“O Sovereign YHWH,” I said, “I can’t speak for you! I’m too young!”
  
  7YHWH replied, “Don’t say, ‘I’m too young,’ for you must go wherever I send you and say whatever I tell you. 8And don’t be afraid of the people, for I will be with you and will protect you. I, YHWH, have spoken!” 9Then YHWH reached out and touched my mouth and said,
  
  “Look, I have put MY WORDS in your mouth!
  
  10Today I appoint you to stand up against nations and kingdoms. Some you must uproot and tear down, destroy and overthrow. Others you must build up and plant.”
  
  11Then YHWH said to me, “Look, Jeremiah! What do you see?” And I replied, “I see a branch from an almond tree.”
  
  12And YHWH said, “That’s right, and it means that I am watching,c and I will certainly carry out all my plans.”

YHWH’s word came to Jeremiah… Is YHWH’s word ALMIGHTY GOD and/or the pre-human ‘Jesus Christ’, the Servant of YHWH?

 

[Eli G]

To ‘Become flesh’ means ‘To come to fruition’, ‘To come to fulfilment’.

The ‘Word of God’, which was that God would send a Saviour, CAME TO FRUITION.

But how do you distinguish ‘Word of God’ from ‘Word of God’ in saying that one means ‘The word God spoke’ and in another means ‘A man…’ (in your case, a Spirit Being who was WITH GOD when GOD said,’I and I alone, created all things’:
...

There is a big difference between a thing next to God THAT "became flesh" and a spirit next to God WHO "became flesh".

Jesus' pre-existence is a very important topic to delucidate and understand clearly what was/is his role in the Universe from its very beginning.

 

[amazing grace]

There is a big difference between a thing next to God THAT "became flesh" and a spirit next to God WHO "became flesh".

Jesus' pre-existence is a very important topic to delucidate and understand clearly what was/is his role in the Universe from its very beginning.

What does "delucidate" mean?

Does anything pre-exist before it literally exist? I believe Jesus existed as God's plan for mankind's salvation and therefore existed in the mind of God before his miraculous conception and then his birth, his origin. IOW, Jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world.

 

[Brian2]

What does "delucidate" mean?

Does anything pre-exist before it literally exist? I believe Jesus existed as God's plan for mankind's salvation and therefore existed in the mind of God before his miraculous conception and then his birth, his origin. IOW, Jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world.

Jesus origin was before His birth as a man. And the passage below means nothing if it applies to all people, which it would if it just means that God foreknew them.
Micah 5:1 Now, O daughter of troops, mobilize your troops; for a siege is laid against us! With a rod they will strike the cheek of the judge of Israel. 2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come forth for Me One to be ruler over Israel— One whose origins are of old, from the days of eternity.

 

[Soapy]

There is a big difference between a thing next to God THAT "became flesh" and a spirit next to God WHO "became flesh".

Jesus' pre-existence is a very important topic to delucidate and understand clearly what was/is his role in the Universe from its very beginning.

Jesus did not have a pre-existence.

The idea was created by Trinitarians who couldn’t find any way to explain their three-in-one ‘god’.

It’s quite clear from all the confusion attached to the idea since they declare that Jesus IS GOD but IS SUBORDINATE to the Father… who is also ‘god’ and that the third ‘god’ is even more subordinate to the Father.

At no time is there any reason given for why ANY ‘EQUI-ALL-POWERFUL Being could have SUBORDINATE persons within itself.

Oops… did I just say ‘itself’? Yes, trinity belief is exactly what Trinitarians describe their doctrine as: ‘INCOMPREHENSIBLE’!!

They ‘capture’ the term for themselves in the vain hope that they can redefine it in their favour so unwary readers and believers will think of it as ‘Beyond the ability for the common man to achieve understanding’… which is code for ‘You’re too thick headed to understand the nonsense that we spout as our trinity belief’.

But Trinitarians forget the fact the Jesus Christ came to REVEAL THE FATHER… came to reveal ALMIGHTY GOD. Trinity, therefore, is saying that Jesus Christ FAILED to reveal the Father, failed to reveal GOD to the nations…

‘I and the Father are one’… what do you learn from this statement? Does it declare a Trinity?
If ‘god’ is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ as trinity claims, then how could Jesus only declare himself and the Father ALONE as being one… But in fact, we know that ‘One PERSON’ is not what Jesus meant… nor the Scripture writers… but that they are ‘One IN AGREEMENT’. Which is why there isn’t a THIRD ‘person’ in Jesus’ declaration - THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER… it is not a SEPARATE (??!) person in God, as Trinitarians would try to have you thinking and believing.

Jesus is a SINLESS human Being who was EMPOWERED by THE SPIRIT OF GOD: The Spirit of the Father. The Father ANOINTED Jesus of Nazareth with HIS SPIRIT:

• ‘I [YHWH God] will put MY SPIRIT upon [My servant, my chosen one whom I uphold, the Messiah]’ say the Lord God: YHWH.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus did not have a pre-existence.

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.
John 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

 

[amazing grace]

Jesus origin was before His birth as a man. And the passage below means nothing if it applies to all people, which it would if it just means that God foreknew them.
Micah 5:1 Now, O daughter of troops, mobilize your troops; for a siege is laid against us! With a rod they will strike the cheek of the judge of Israel. 2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come forth for Me One to be ruler over Israel— One whose origins are of old, from the days of eternity.

Yes, Jesus's origin was foretold - a ruler to come forth for God and from the tribe of Judah to be ruler over Israel. This was foretold to Jacob some 900 years before Micah that the Messiah was to come out of Judah (Genesis 49:10); Nathan foretold that the Messiah would come from the line of David over 300 years before Micah (2 Sam. 7:16) - both prophecies among others would be considered "one whose origins are of old, from ancient days".

Also, when we read further - (v4) he shall stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of Yahweh, in the majesty of the name of Yahweh his God. Yahweh (God) was Jesus's God therefore Jesus could not be Yahweh (God). Yahweh (God) is his Father, and he came in his Father's name.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, Jesus's origin was foretold - a ruler to come forth for God and from the tribe of Judah to be ruler over Israel. This was foretold to Jacob some 900 years before Micah that the Messiah was to come out of Judah (Genesis 49:10); Nathan foretold that the Messiah would come from the line of David over 300 years before Micah (2 Sam. 7:16) - both prophecies among others would be considered "one whose origins are of old, from ancient days".

So you are saying that Micah 5:2 has nothing to do with the origins of Jesus or the goings forth of Jesus, but is saying that He was prophesied about a long time ago.

Also, when we read further - (v4) he shall stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of Yahweh, in the majesty of the name of Yahweh his God. Yahweh (God) was Jesus's God therefore Jesus could not be Yahweh (God). Yahweh (God) is his Father, and he came in his Father's name.

That is probably how a Jew might have understood it, that He could not be Yahweh who is His God, but that is not true if the eternal Son became a man, and so as a man has a God, who is His Father.

 

[amazing grace]

So you are saying that Micah 5:2 has nothing to do with the origins of Jesus or the goings forth of Jesus, but is saying that He was prophesied about a long time ago.

Didn't say it had nothing to do with the origins of Jesus - It does say that he would originate from the tribe of Judah to be ruler of Israel.

That is probably how a Jew might have understood it, that He could not be Yahweh who is His God, but that is not true if the eternal Son became a man, and so as a man has a God, who is His Father.

Yes, that is how OT Israelite believers understood it - the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc. - ONE God who is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ of whom Jesus said was the ONE true God.
You can't be God when you have a God - when one has a God and is also God - that's two Gods.
The Son was not eternal - he was raised eternal, i.e. given eternal life.
Jesus wasn't "AS A MAN" - he was a man, a human being. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc. would have never thought that Jesus would have been anything other than A MAN.