Jesus - First Born?

[Soapy]

The Word of God tells us that the universe that will perish is the work of the hands of Jesus. (Heb 1:10-12)

Brian2, you do realise that Hebrews 1:10-12 is speaking about Almighty God: YHWH, the Father…!

The quote is from Psalm 102:25… where King David is praying to YHWH. Hebrews 1:10-12 is another example of where a verse from the Torah is used by Trinitarians in the new testament in an attempt to claim that Jesus is God… but it is easily shown to be false as I’ve just shown you here.

I justify it logically by saying for a start that Jesus (the pre human Jesus) was in heaven with God before coming to earth. This of course is told to us 101 times in the New Testament so that part of it should be easy for you to follow.
So the heavens are the work of the Son's hands and the Son was in heaven with God before He came to earth. This of course would mean that He was there at the creation, creating when YHWH alone was doing that.
Hmmm, tell me what logical conclusion you get about who Jesus is when you listen to what the scriptures say.



So are you saying that the Word (the Logos) is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God?

Yes, Brian. At last you are beginning to see… perhaps!

Trinitarians emphasise the term ‘Word’ in John 1:1 as though it is an autonomous entity. But in reality the term is used many many times throughout scriptures without them emphasising it as an auto entity.

For instance, Scripture says:

• “For the word [Logos] of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword…” (Hebrews 4:12)
• “For the one whom God has sent speaks the words [Logos] of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.” (John 3:34)
• “If He called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word [Logos] of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside” (John 10:35)

 

[Brian2]

When you say:

• “We unite with Christ in His Sonship, becoming adopted children to His actually coming from His Father Sonship.”

that surely cannot include those who believe that Jesus is YHWH GOD, can it?

Yes it includes those who believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one God,,,,,,,, with the Son having always been with/in His Father and His Father being the source of life for the Son.

When you plot it out, you are saying that

• “The Son is the Father”

in the same way that you say that

• “I and the Father are one”

means they two are ‘the same thing’ (you wrote that in another response to Amazing Grace)

Yes the 2 are one thing. At a guess I would say that they combine to make the one God.
That does not mean that the Father is the Son however.
Oneness Pentecostalism teaches that God is both the Father and the Son, but in different modes, it is also known as modalism.
Trinitarianism teaches that the Father and Son are distinct persons in the one God.

 

[Brian2]

Brian2, you do realise that Hebrews 1:10-12 is speaking about Almighty God: YHWH, the Father…!

The quote is from Psalm 102:25… where King David is praying to YHWH. Hebrews 1:10-12 is another example of where a verse from the Torah is used by Trinitarians in the new testament in an attempt to claim that Jesus is God… but it is easily shown to be false as I’ve just shown you here.

Yes, Brian. At last you are beginning to see… perhaps!

Trinitarians emphasise the term ‘Word’ in John 1:1 as though it is an autonomous entity. But in reality the term is used many many times throughout scriptures without them emphasising it as an auto entity.

For instance, Scripture says:

• “For the word [Logos] of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword…” (Hebrews 4:12)
• “For the one whom God has sent speaks the words [Logos] of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.” (John 3:34)
• “If He called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word [Logos] of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside” (John 10:35)

Yes Logos means "word" and in John 1:1, "The Logos" indicates a person who was with The God and who was completely like The God He was with, iow having the same essence and nature.
So that means that the Logos was not a thing.

 

[Soapy]

Yes it includes those who believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one God,,,,,,,, with the Son having always been with/in His Father and His Father being the source of life for the Son.

Ha ha ha… Brian2, you are terrible!!!

‘The Father is THE SOURCE of life for the Son’… ‘the son who has ALWAYS BEEN with his Father’… Brian2, have you thought about spiritual therapy?

Yes the 2 are one thing. At a guess I would say that they combine to make the one God.

‘A Guess’? Brian2, at this stage in Christian debate there should be no ‘guessing’ at you understand as truth…!!!

You just said the two are one thing - now you say you GUESS they SOMEHOW COMBINE to make one God…

No, Brian2, God is not a COMBINATION of entities as one entity!!!

That does not mean that the Father is the Son however.
Oneness Pentecostalism teaches that God is both the Father and the Son, but in different modes, it is also known as modalism.
Trinitarianism teaches that the Father and Son are distinct persons in the one God.

Nowhere is our discussion are we considering any other belief. My concentration is on what you say and what I respond to you so trying to talk about what other paganistic religious beliefs say is just a way for you to distract from your failure to uphold your own paganistic religious belief… to wit, two wrongs don’t make a right… Because you can point out quite correctly that trinitarianism and Pentecostalism are false beliefs you think then that makes your false belief the right false belief… hmmm… such false thinking doesn’t work in truth!!!

 

[Soapy]

Yes Logos means "word" and in John 1:1, "The Logos" indicates a person who was with The God and who was completely like The God He was with, iow having the same essence and nature.
So that means that the Logos was not a thing.

Brian2, where are you coming from and where are you going???

‘Completely LIKE GOD’!!!

You surely are kneejerking in desperation. Best to stop now!!!

‘Who is like Me?’, ‘There is none like me’, says the YHWH God. How are you now saying that ‘The Logos’ was ‘a person’ who was [completely] LIKE GOD?

 

[Brian2]

Brian2, where are you coming from and where are you going???

‘Completely LIKE GOD’!!!

You surely are kneejerking in desperation. Best to stop now!!!

‘Who is like Me?’, ‘There is none like me’, says the YHWH God. How are you now saying that ‘The Logos’ was ‘a person’ who was [completely] LIKE GOD?

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God......
Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name lhe has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
John 14:9 Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Not only is He exactly like His Father, He has inherited the name of His Father, the name above all names. (Phil 2) Everthing He has inherited now are things that were His while He was walking the earth (John 16:15). Things which He set aside to become a man, exactly like those He was sent from heaven to save.

Hebrews 2:17For this reason He had to be made like His brothers in every way, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people.

‘Who is like Me?’, ‘There is none like me’, says the YHWH God.
You sort of quote Isaiah, but when I show that Jesus is like God you ignore it.
And btw if God is good then Jesus also is good. And you know what that means because Jesus said that only God is good.

 

[Soapy]

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God......
Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name lhe has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
John 14:9 Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Not only is He exactly like His Father, He has inherited the name of His Father, the name above all names. (Phil 2) Everthing He has inherited now are things that were His while He was walking the earth (John 16:15). Things which He set aside to become a man, exactly like those He was sent from heaven to save.

Hebrews 2:17For this reason He had to be made like His brothers in every way, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people.

‘Who is like Me?’, ‘There is none like me’, says the YHWH God.
You sort of quote Isaiah, but when I show that Jesus is like God you ignore it.
And btw if God is good then Jesus also is good. And you know what that means because Jesus said that only God is good.

Oh dear Brian2, you tempt me…!!

God says that there is NONE LIKE HIM… that was the quote : ‘Who is like me … no, I know none!’. So what are you saying?

You should quote Isaiah 44:9 against yourself:

• “All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame.”

The Son is ‘THE RADIANCE OF THE GLORY OF THE FATHER’. Is English your first language?

The GLORY of the Father… in fact, The RADIANCE of that Glory …

Brian2, the light that is radiated from a torch does not make that light radiance the TORCH from which the radiance is emanated from.
Jesus’ glory comes FROM the Father which is why Jesus can radiate it:

• A pupil who shines in an examination is THE GLORY of the teacher who taught him

It does not make the pupil suddenly become the SAME PERSON AS THE TEACHER!!! It means that the pupil exudes the same level of knowledge as the teacher who taught him - that pupil is one with the teacher…
However, we know that God did not teach Jesus EVERYTHING… We know, for instance that:

1. Jesus did not know the day nor the hour of his return…
2. Jesus did not know which of the apostle two brothers would sit on his left and right hand
3. Jesus had to pray to the Father for use of the Spirit of the Father before carrying out miracles
4. Jesus’ life was sustained by him being endowed with the Spirit of God - hence, when God removed the Spirit from him Jesus cried out: ‘Father, why have you abandoned me’ - and he died!
5. Jesus was RAISED UP from death by the Father…
6. Jesus was RAISED UP to Heaven by the Father
7. Jesus was SEATED at the right hand of the Father by the Father (‘Right hand’ being the position of greatest love at a father’s (or any great person) side
8. Jesus was GRANTED to have life giving powers in him
9. Jesus was GRANTED all power and authority - for a time - whence afterwards he handed back that power to the Father

Of course there are many more things that show my point but I’m sure you get the idea by now. Jesus summed it up thus:

• ‘These things you see me do are because of the [Spirit of the] Father working in me’

And yet Jesus went on to say:

• ‘You not only will do the things I do but in fact even GREATER THINGS you will do’!!

Wow, so you think Jesus is God… and yet your ‘God’ says man will do even GREATER THINGS than He!!!

And, Jesus saying that ‘ONLY GOD IS GOOD’ is a relative term… “GOOD” is not an absolute term… it’s a ‘RELATIVE’ term.

Jesus is NOT AS GOOD as GOD. So Jesus, speaking of himself can only rightly say that:

• ‘You say I’m good… No, mate, I’m not good - ONLY GOD IS GOOD!!!!’

A Master Chess player is accoladed by a fan after the master wins a great tournament. The master stops the fan saying, ‘No mate, you ain’t seen ‘good’ yet! You should come see the GRANDMASTER Chess play - Now He’s GOOD!! I attest to that because I learnt from him… he taught me!’

 

[amazing grace]

When Jesus said, "I and the Father are one", since the "one" is in the neuter gender that means that He was meaning, "I and the Father are one thing".
Sure we and Jesus would want us to be in harmony with Himself and the Father, but that is not what is meant in the scriptures when it says that the Father and Son are one.

That is your understanding - "I and the Father are one THING."
My understanding is that when Jesus says that he and the Father are “one” it means in purpose, and unified in their goals and actions. Jesus and the Father operate in perfect unity, and it should be the goal of every Christian to be “one” with them.

Context: Jesus was speaking about his ability to keep the “sheep,” the believers, who came to him. He said that no one could take them out of his hand and that no one could take them out of his Father’s hand. Then he said that he and the Father were “one,” i.e., had one purpose, which was to keep and protect the sheep.

We can be united with Christ, being one with Him in His humanity. We become part of the humanity of Jesus, with His Spirit in us (and there is just one Spirit, the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit) We are corporately and individually the body of Christ, with His Spirit giving us life.
We unite with Christ in His Sonship, becoming adopted children to His actually coming from His Father Sonship.

It is not one in "substance".
God is Spirit . . . when Jesus was raised from the dead, he received his new body and became a life-giving Spirit. There are many ways in which "pnuema" (spirit) is used in scripture.
The "one Spirit" by which we are baptized into one body is the gift of Holy Spirit one receives when they repent and are baptized, i.e. born again. (Acts 2:38)

 

[Dimi95]

It’s ok, I can put you on ‘ignore’ as well…!

No , i just want you to support your claims with Scripture.

I will share something with you

It is about Torah
TAV is the first letter in Torah

The word TAV means 'impression' or 'mark'. TAV alludes to the three essential services of the soul:
-teshuvah which means repentance
-tefillah which means prayer
-Torah which means Law od God
All three of these words in Hebrew begin with the letter TAV.
TAV represents truth.
The letter TAV begins the word tikkun (redemption).

If you go every 50 letters in the Book of Genesis you will get the spelling of TORAH!
If you go every 50 letters in the Book of Exodus you will get also the spelling of TORAH!

If you skip Leviticus and go to Numbers,you go every 49 letters and you will get TORAH spelled backwards!
If you go to Deuterenomy every 49 letters you will also get TORAH spelled backwards!

Why?
They are both pointing at Leviticus
In Leviticus in every 7 letters you will get the spelling of YAHWEH - Y-H-V-H
Every 7 letters - the entire book of Leviticus!
The book of Leviticus shows that it would take the sacriface of the perfect Lamb - Jesus Christ to atone our sins.

How amazing is that?

 

[Brian2]

Brian2, where are you coming from and where are you going???

‘Completely LIKE GOD’!!!

You surely are kneejerking in desperation. Best to stop now!!!

‘Who is like Me?’, ‘There is none like me’, says the YHWH God. How are you now saying that ‘The Logos’ was ‘a person’ who was [completely] LIKE GOD?

OR looked at from a different pov, the pre human Jesus was YHWH. That is logical since YHWH says that there is none like Him and the NT tells us that Jesus is exactly like Him and also tells us that He inherits the name YHWH and that various OT scriptures which are about YHWH are speaking about Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

Nowhere is our discussion are we considering any other belief. My concentration is on what you say and what I respond to you so trying to talk about what other paganistic religious beliefs say is just a way for you to distract from your failure to uphold your own paganistic religious belief… to wit, two wrongs don’t make a right… Because you can point out quite correctly that trinitarianism and Pentecostalism are false beliefs you think then that makes your false belief the right false belief… hmmm… such false thinking doesn’t work in truth!!!

You misrepresent the Trinitarian belief in order to make arguments against it. But what else should I expect from someone who, for the sake of their belief, which contradicts the Bible, says trinitarians have changed the Bible in those places.

 

[Brian2]

That is your understanding - "I and the Father are one THING."
My understanding is that when Jesus says that he and the Father are “one” it means in purpose, and unified in their goals and actions. Jesus and the Father operate in perfect unity, and it should be the goal of every Christian to be “one” with them.

Context: Jesus was speaking about his ability to keep the “sheep,” the believers, who came to him. He said that no one could take them out of his hand and that no one could take them out of his Father’s hand. Then he said that he and the Father were “one,” i.e., had one purpose, which was to keep and protect the sheep.

The continuing context is that the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus because He said "I and the Father are one". That is not something that would happen with Jesus just claiming to be in harmony with God.

It is not one in "substance".
God is Spirit . . . when Jesus was raised from the dead, he received his new body and became a life-giving Spirit. There are many ways in which "pnuema" (spirit) is used in scripture.
The "one Spirit" by which we are baptized into one body is the gift of Holy Spirit one receives when they repent and are baptized, i.e. born again. (Acts 2:38)

The problems of being in the form of God and then deciding to not fight it, but to obey and take the form of a servant and become a man with a human body and all (Phil 2) and become lower than the angels but still remain who you were, the Son of God with all the angels commanded to worship you.
Then Jesus was resurrected bodily, but in a transformed body that is immortal and incorruptible, and we will be resurrected with the same sort of body.
Poor Jesus, He was the same person but would He ever become what He was again?
Yes, through the human institution of inheritance He was able to remain human with His new human body and go back to what He was and had before, and which belonged to Him (John 16:15) all along. The best of both worlds.
He ascended to fill the whole universe (Ephes 4:10) sitting on the throne of David and with His Father, King of Israel and the Kingdom of God.

As for the one Spirit. The pre human Jesus was in the form of God before becoming a man, He was Spirit, the same Spirit that His Father was. He was another person in that Spirit. There was not more than one Spirit then. The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, is that Spirit and in the Spirit of God is the Father and the Son.
God is said to be in heaven but at the same time heaven and the heaven of the heavens cannot contain Him, He is everywhere, and the Son also was everywhere and went back to that state when He ascended.
The Holy Spirit also can be sent by God to do certain things and contains the Father and Son, and is the angel of God's presence. (Isa 63:8-14) (Ex 33:14)
We are given the Holy Spirit as Christians and the Father and the Son dwell in us.
There is one Spirit and the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ and He is in us so that we have Christ's life and are His children. (Romans 8:8-10, Isa 53:10)
Jesus in His divinity is one substance with the Father and in His humanity He is joined to our spirits so that we can share in His Sonship as adopted children of God, Christ's Children (Isa 53:10)and taste of His divine nature. (2Peter 1:4)

 

[Soapy]

The continuing context is that the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus because He said "I and the Father are one". That is not something that would happen with Jesus just claiming to be in harmony with God.



The problems of being in the form of God and then deciding to not fight it, but to obey and take the form of a servant and become a man with a human body and all (Phil 2) and become lower than the angels but still remain who you were, the Son of God with all the angels commanded to worship you.
Then Jesus was resurrected bodily, but in a transformed body that is immortal and incorruptible, and we will be resurrected with the same sort of body.
Poor Jesus, He was the same person but would He ever become what He was again?
Yes, through the human institution of inheritance He was able to remain human with His new human body and go back to what He was and had before, and which belonged to Him (John 16:15) all along. The best of both worlds.
He ascended to fill the whole universe (Ephes 4:10) sitting on the throne of David and with His Father, King of Israel and the Kingdom of God.

As for the one Spirit. The pre human Jesus was in the form of God before becoming a man, He was Spirit, the same Spirit that His Father was. He was another person in that Spirit. There was not more than one Spirit then. The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, is that Spirit and in the Spirit of God is the Father and the Son.
God is said to be in heaven but at the same time heaven and the heaven of the heavens cannot contain Him, He is everywhere, and the Son also was everywhere and went back to that state when He ascended.
The Holy Spirit also can be sent by God to do certain things and contains the Father and Son, and is the angel of God's presence. (Isa 63:8-14) (Ex 33:14)
We are given the Holy Spirit as Christians and the Father and the Son dwell in us.
There is one Spirit and the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ and He is in us so that we have Christ's life and are His children. (Romans 8:8-10, Isa 53:10)
Jesus in His divinity is one substance with the Father and in His humanity He is joined to our spirits so that we can share in His Sonship as adopted children of God, Christ's Children (Isa 53:10)and taste of His divine nature. (2Peter 1:4)

“The pre human Jesus was in the form of God before becoming a man,”

Is ‘A FORM of God’ the same as being God?

‘A Form of something’ cannot mean ‘Was / Is THE SOMETHING’.

Jesus was EMPOWERED TO ACT IN the POWER OF GOD… He was LIKE GOD…

‘Like God’ is not the same as ‘Was / Is GOD’.

Is GOD LIKE GOD?

Jesus had the power of God and COULD HAVE DONE ANYTHING that THE GOD (YHWH) could do…. BUT INSTEAD he lowered himself to only do what GOD wanted him to by being a servant to man… To wit, Jesus only used the power of God to do God’s Will and serve mankind … suffering for mankind sake, humiliated for mankind sake, beaten for mankind sake, DYING IN EXCRUCIATING AGONY for mankind sake!!

And this is the mindset set the Apostles were to have as described in Phil 2. The Apostles, endowed with the Spirit of God, were not to assume a mightiness over mankind but use the power of the Spirit to SERVE MANKIND - as Jesus did!

 

[Soapy]

You misrepresent the Trinitarian belief in order to make arguments against it. But what else should I expect from someone who, for the sake of their belief, which contradicts the Bible, says trinitarians have changed the Bible in those places.

Are you also wanting to be a trinitarian?

 

[Soapy]

OR looked at from a different pov, the pre human Jesus was YHWH. That is logical since YHWH says that there is none like Him and the NT tells us that Jesus is exactly like Him and also tells us that He inherits the name YHWH and that various OT scriptures which are about YHWH are speaking about Jesus.

Brian2, being ‘LIKE’ someone is not the same as ‘BEING SOMEONE’.

Maybe you want to join another thread pointlessly debating this minute issue in language and understanding:

• Mistaken Identity and Jesus - doesn't require a look-a-like​

 

[Soapy]

OR looked at from a different pov, the pre human Jesus was YHWH. That is logical since YHWH says that there is none like Him and the NT tells us that Jesus is exactly like Him and also tells us that He inherits the name YHWH and that various OT scriptures which are about YHWH are speaking about Jesus.

Ha ha ha… oh man, Brian2… what are you taking???

You say Jesus is YHWH and then say Jesus inherited the name of YHWH…!!!

YHWH IS the name of YHWH.
Jesus IS the name of Jesus.

What was Jesus’ name before he inherited the name of YHWH?

 

[amazing grace]

The continuing context is that the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus because He said "I and the Father are one". That is not something that would happen with Jesus just claiming to be in harmony with God.

Boy, that was changed from original Trinitarian thinking - Most Trinitarians say that Jesus was "claiming to be God" not "be in harmony with God".
Jesus never claimed to be God.

The problems of being in the form of God and then deciding to not fight it, but to obey and take the form of a servant and become a man with a human body and all (Phil 2) and become lower than the angels but still remain who you were, the Son of God with all the angels commanded to worship you. Jesus was speaking about his ability to keep the “sheep,” the believers, who came to him. He said that no one could take them out of his hand and that no one could take them out of his Father’s hand. Then he said that he and the Father were “one,” i.e., had one purpose, which was to keep and protect the sheep. Then Jesus was resurrected bodily, but in a transformed body that is immortal and incorruptible, and we will be resurrected with the same sort of body. Poor Jesus, He was the same person but would He ever become what He was again?
Yes, through the human institution of inheritance He was able to remain human with His new human body and go back to what He was and had before, and which belonged to Him (John 16:15) all along. The best of both worlds.
He ascended to fill the whole universe (Ephes 4:10) sitting on the throne of David and with His Father, King of Israel and the Kingdom of God.

I see no relevance between the above paragraph and anything that I posted.

As for the one Spirit. The pre human Jesus was in the form of God before becoming a man, He was Spirit, the same Spirit that His Father was. He was another person in that Spirit. There was not more than one Spirit then. The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, is that Spirit and in the Spirit of God is the Father and the Son.
God is said to be in heaven but at the same time heaven and the heaven of the heavens cannot contain Him, He is everywhere, and the Son also was everywhere and went back to that state when He ascended.
The Holy Spirit also can be sent by God to do certain things and contains the Father and Son, and is the angel of God's presence. (Isa 63:8-14) (Ex 33:14)
We are given the Holy Spirit as Christians and the Father and the Son dwell in us.
There is one Spirit and the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ and He is in us so that we have Christ's life and are His children. (Romans 8:8-10, Isa 53:10)
Jesus in His divinity is one substance with the Father and in His humanity He is joined to our spirits so that we can share in His Sonship as adopted children of God, Christ's Children (Isa 53:10)and taste of His divine nature. (2Peter 1:4)

There was no pre human Jesus or not pre existing "spirit" Jesus.
God was not Jesus in a pre human form and then became a human.
The Spirit of God is God's Spirit; the Holy Spirit in most contexts is God's Spirit. Jesus did not return to any pre existing state.
Yes, God's presence was with them, i.e. the Holy Spirit, (the power of the Most High (Luke 1:35) was with them and working through Moses in the parting of the Red Sea, etc.
The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5); God's spirit. Jesus Christ in many verses after his resurrection is referred to as "the Spirit" but NOT the Holy Spirit.
Then there is the gift of Holy Spirit given to believers after they repent, and are baptized, i.e. born again.
Yes, we are joined to God and Christ via the gift of Holy Spirit given us, the promise of the Father that Jesus poured out on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:33), the promised Holy Spirit by which we are sealed until the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13) which is how we are partakers of the divine nature.

 

[Brian2]

Boy, that was changed from original Trinitarian thinking - Most Trinitarians say that Jesus was "claiming to be God" not "be in harmony with God".
Jesus never claimed to be God.

Just to clear up what I said. If Jesus was just claiming to be in harmony with God the Jews would not have wanted to stone Him. They knew the language and what He was saying and it was blasphemous in their eyes.
They did not realise that YHWH has a Son who, together with the Father is one thing, but listening to Jesus they knew that is what He was saying.

I see no relevance between the above paragraph and anything that I posted.

You did somehow mix what you said into what I said. But if you saw no relevance that probably made no difference.

The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5); God's spirit. Jesus Christ in many verses after his resurrection is referred to as "the Spirit" but NOT the Holy Spirit.

That means that you are saying there is more than one Spirit when the New Testament tells us that there is one Spirit.

 

[amazing grace]

Just to clear up what I said. If Jesus was just claiming to be in harmony with God the Jews would not have wanted to stone Him. They knew the language and what He was saying and it was blasphemous in their eyes.
They did not realise that YHWH has a Son who, together with the Father is one thing, but listening to Jesus they knew that is what He was saying.

Just to let you know this is what you said: "Jesus just claiming to be in harmony with God."
They understood him to be a man. . .they accused him of claiming to be a god (which he never did). They were unbelievers by the way and did not believe he was the Messiah. . . And Jesus did not say, "You are correct, I am God." Nope, he responded with: do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is IN me and I am IN the Father." . . . united, in unity.

You did somehow mix what you said into what I said. But if you saw no relevance that probably made no difference.

That means that you are saying there is more than one Spirit when the New Testament tells us that there is one Spirit.

No, that is not what I said.

I said earlier - There are many ways in which "pnuema" (spirit) is used in scripture. Then in the previous post I gave you examples of how "spirit" is used in different contexts. "The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5); God's Spirit. Jesus Christ in many verses after his resurrection is referred to as "the Spirit" but not the Holy Spirit. Then there is the gift of Holy Spirit given to believers after they Repent and are baptized, I.e. born again. Yes, we are joined to God and Christ via the gift of Holy Spirit given us, the promise of the Father poured out on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:33) by which we are sealed until the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13) which is how we are partakers of the divine nature."
So it is dependent on the context what "spirit" is being referring to.

 

[Brian2]

Just to let you know this is what you said: "Jesus just claiming to be in harmony with God."

This is what I said in post #712
The continuing context is that the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus because He said "I and the Father are one". That is not something that would happen with Jesus just claiming to be in harmony with God.

They understood him to be a man. . .they accused him of claiming to be a god (which he never did). They were unbelievers by the way and did not believe he was the Messiah. . . And Jesus did not say, "You are correct, I am God." Nope, he responded with: do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is IN me and I am IN the Father." . . . united, in unity.

John 10:38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

The Jews did not understand what Jesus said to mean "united, in unity".
When He said that He and the Father are one they understood that to me that He was claiming to be God.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Jesus asked why, when all He was doing was claiming to be the Son of God.
This would not have been a problem as the Kings of Israel were sons of God and the Messiah was to be the Son of God.
But when He said that He was in the Father and the Father was in Him, that became blasphemy for them also.

John 10:36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

All the way through John's gospel it is not that Jesus was claiming to be the Son of God, but was the type of Son that He was claiming to be.
The Sonship of Jesus is not that of a created being, it is the Sonship of someone who is not only begotten but who remains in His Father and His Father remains in Him. He and His Father are one thing. United does not work in the context of what was understood by Jesus Jewish opponents.
In the end it seems to have been the type of Son He was claiming, which got Him condemned. He was claiming equality with God.

Matt 26:63 But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has uttered blasphemy. What further witnesses do we need?

This would have made them think of the Lord of David in Psalm 110 and the one who is coming to execute judgement, YHWH.
Thomas claimed "My Lord and My God" and John said a few verses later that the gospel was written so that people would believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and be saved.
The Son of God in John's gospel and the other gospels is someone we can call "My Lord and my God".

No, that is not what I said.

I said earlier - There are many ways in which "pnuema" (spirit) is used in scripture. Then in the previous post I gave you examples of how "spirit" is used in different contexts. "The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5); God's Spirit. Jesus Christ in many verses after his resurrection is referred to as "the Spirit" but not the Holy Spirit. Then there is the gift of Holy Spirit given to believers after they Repent and are baptized, I.e. born again. Yes, we are joined to God and Christ via the gift of Holy Spirit given us, the promise of the Father poured out on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:33) by which we are sealed until the day of redemption (Eph. 1:13) which is how we are partakers of the divine nature."
So it is dependent on the context what "spirit" is being referring to.

This seems to be equating the Spirit of God with the Spirit of Christ. Jesus did breathe on His disciples (John 20:22) and thereby gave them the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

John 20:22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

There are many passages where we see the Holy Spirit is as much the Spirit of God as it is the Spirit of Christ. Here are a few.
Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Philippians 1:19
for I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayers and the provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

1 Peter 1:11
seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

Acts 16:7
and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;

In the Spirit of God dwells the Father and the Son and it is through the Spirit dwelling in us that the Father and Son dwell in us.
John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in
you.
John 14:23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

There is one Spirit, the Holy Spirit who lives in us and is called the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Truth (Jesus being the Truth) and the Spirit of Christ and the other Advocate whom Jesus was going to send.
After being a man on earth Jesus ascended to fill the universe. (Eph 4:10)

There are many things to say about Jesus but I should stop when you don't even believe Jesus when He said that He was in heaven with His Father and came down from heaven to earth.
Try believing the straight forward passages instead of changing the meaning.