Jesus - First Born?

[Brian2]

I believe you should realize that the "for in Him" had God as the closest reference and is consistent with the rest of the Bible. The fact that God is in Jesus does not alter that fact but it does not make Jesus the creator since He wasn't even born yet.

Jesus was the Son of God before anything was created.
Hebrews 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
All things were created through the pre human Jesus, the Son of God.
The pre human Jesus was one of those things that have been created through the pre human Jesus. The pre human Jesus has been with the Father from eternity.

 

[Brian2]

Correct - The Son is the image of the invisible God - Adam was made in the image of God BUT no one says he is God.
Correct - the firstborn of all creation - the creation that now is (Genesis creation) or the NEW creation, i.e. the coming Kingdom?
I believe it is the coming Kingdom that Jesus is the co-creator of - the things being created through him and for him - thrones, powers, rulers and authorities.
He is before all things being preeminent, superior, the head of the church and as such holds all things of the church, the body, together.
Firstborn of all creation = the firstborn from the dead.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

I presume you can see the past tense there.

Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed ethe heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Past tense here also.

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with tthe oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;

So Hebrews 10 is a quote that God has said about His Son who laid the foundations of the earth in the beginning.

 

[amazing grace]

Where does any scripture say that God is creating all things new THROUGH Jesus Christ? Verse says ‘FOR …’ Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:16 - For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities---all things were created through him and for him . . .

Are you saying that Jesus is setting up a kingdom for HIS SON?

No.

I’m failing to see what you are showing by quoting this verse (Rev 12:10).

The coming kingdom will be God's and his Christ.

 

[amazing grace]

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

I presume you can see the past tense there.

Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed ethe heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Past tense here also.

It is a literary technique used frequently throughout the Bible. The prophetic perfect tense is a literary technique used in the Bible that describes future events that are so certain to happen that they are referred to in the past tense as if they had already happened.

For example, Isaiah wrote that the Messiah “was wounded for our transgressions” (Isaiah 53:5) instead of “will be wounded for our transgressions.” Some biblical Hebrew scholars call this phenomenon the “prophetic perfect” or the “prophetic past tense.” Isaiah repeatedly used the prophetic perfect in prophesying of Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice: “He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows” (Isaiah 53:4); “He was bruised for our iniquities” (53:5); “The chastisement of our peace was upon him” (53:5); “The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all” (53:6); “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted” (53:7); “He was cut off out of the land of the living” (53:8); and “For the transgression of my people was he stricken” (53:8).

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with tthe oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;

So Hebrews 10 is a quote that God has said about His Son who laid the foundations of the earth in the beginning.

These verses Hebrews 1:8,9 was pulled from Psalm 45:6,7 where it was addressed and applicable to the king - "I address my verses to the king". Now was the king "Almighty God"?

Hebrews 1:9 tells of the king loving righteousness and hating wickedness and because of this God, the king's God anointed him with the oil of gladness beyond his companions. Did God anoint God with the oil of gladness?

Hebrews 1:10, we have talked about all this context before, but you disregarded my explanation. Remember that originally there were no chapter breaks or verses indicated so if we continue reading the context reveals that Hebrews 1:10 is speaking of the world to come, the new heavens and new earth - For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking . . . The author of Hebrews is lifting it from the Psalms and applying it to Jesus Christ. Isaiah 44:24 says that the LORD (Yahweh) ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF.

 

[Soapy]

You just blatantly deny what the Bible tells us. You have no evidence for this but the fact that the Bible does not agree with your doctrines,,,,,,,,,,,, so instead of adjusting your doctrines to what the Bible says, you say the Bible is wrong and Trinitarians must have changed the Bible.
What sort of arrogant stupidity is that?

The sense in your reply tells me you know what I said was true. I’ve seen your type of replies before - many times in fact - it’s a cry from the heart for help.

Well, Brian2, believe the truth and the truth will set you in course towards redemption.

First Believe, then repent on the belief.

You already have an aspect of truth in you: ‘Jesus is not Almighty God’… that’s a start!

The Father is the creator … He alone created all things and His glory he gives to no one - not even the Son of His Love, the man, Jesus of Nazareth, Jesus the anointed one called ‘Christ’:

• “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached - how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:37-38)

God empowered the man, Jesus, by anointing Jesus with His Spirit. The anointing enabled Jesus to act WITH THE POWER OF GOD… He was not God but could act with God’s power. And this is what trinitarian leaders are confused by and confuse their believers with: Because Jesus acted in the power of God, they believe Jesus WAS GOD.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus was the Son of God before anything was created.
Hebrews 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

All things were created through the pre human Jesus, the Son of God.
The pre human Jesus was one of those things that have been created through the pre human Jesus. The pre human Jesus has been with the Father from eternity.

Oh Brian2, why do you do it???

Just re-read what you just wrote…!!

And do you realise you are being completely irreverent to the Father by denying He created all things. In fact, you place the Son above the Father even though the Son was not even in existence when all things were created.

You’ve played Devils Advocate long enough - remember that you can get fused into the role and start believing it yourself - to your detriment!!

 

[Brian2]

It is a literary technique used frequently throughout the Bible. The prophetic perfect tense is a literary technique used in the Bible that describes future events that are so certain to happen that they are referred to in the past tense as if they had already happened.

For example, Isaiah wrote that the Messiah “was wounded for our transgressions” (Isaiah 53:5) instead of “will be wounded for our transgressions.” Some biblical Hebrew scholars call this phenomenon the “prophetic perfect” or the “prophetic past tense.” Isaiah repeatedly used the prophetic perfect in prophesying of Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice: “He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows” (Isaiah 53:4); “He was bruised for our iniquities” (53:5); “The chastisement of our peace was upon him” (53:5); “The Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all” (53:6); “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted” (53:7); “He was cut off out of the land of the living” (53:8); and “For the transgression of my people was he stricken” (53:8).

Yes God used Isaiah to blind and deafen Israel (Isa 6:9,10) and this literary technique would have helped do that. I don't think that even in Isaiah it would have ever gotten to the stage of speaking about stuff that had already happened (such as the creation) and putting it in the past tense but wanting it to be understood as a prophecy for the future. You must really think that God wants to blind and deafen Christians just as He did with Israel concerning the Messiah.
I just think that you are so set on your particular interpretation of why Jesus is that you have deceived yourself, twisting the scriptures to mean something other than what they say.

These verses Hebrews 1:8,9 was pulled from Psalm 45:6,7 where it was addressed and applicable to the king - "I address my verses to the king". Now was the king "Almighty God"?

Hebrews 1:9 tells of the king loving righteousness and hating wickedness and because of this God, the king's God anointed him with the oil of gladness beyond his companions. Did God anoint God with the oil of gladness?

The reason I used Heb 1:8,9 was to show that verses 8 and 9 were what God said about Jesus and that verse 10 ff are also verses God said about Jesus. (this can be seen with the and between 9 and 10.
Psalm 102: 25-27, speaking about God, was not a prophetic perfect tense prophecy and when Hebrews says that God actually said that part of scripture to the Son, it does not automatically turn into the prophetic perfect because it is being applied to the Son.
So it is saying that the heavens are the work of the Son and the Son laid the foundations of the earth.

Hebrews 1:10, we have talked about all this context before, but you disregarded my explanation. Remember that originally there were no chapter breaks or verses indicated so if we continue reading the context reveals that Hebrews 1:10 is speaking of the world to come, the new heavens and new earth - For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking . . . The author of Hebrews is lifting it from the Psalms and applying it to Jesus Christ. Isaiah 44:24 says that the LORD (Yahweh) ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF.

How can I think that Heb 1:10-12 is about the heavens and earth to come when it says:
10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

This IS the future tense and IS speaking about the time when the old creation (which Jesus made) will be changed to the new creation.

And yes Isa 44:24 tells us YHWH was alone stretching out the heavens and Heb 1:10-12 tells us that they are the work of Jesus hands.
Logically Jesus is YHWH and no other gods were doing it with Him. He is the God of heaven, sea and land.

 

[Brian2]

The sense in your reply tells me you know what I said was true. I’ve seen your type of replies before - many times in fact - it’s a cry from the heart for help.

Well, Brian2, believe the truth and the truth will set you in course towards redemption.

First Believe, then repent on the belief.

You already have an aspect of truth in you: ‘Jesus is not Almighty God’… that’s a start!

The Father is the creator … He alone created all things and His glory he gives to no one - not even the Son of His Love, the man, Jesus of Nazareth, Jesus the anointed one called ‘Christ’:

• “You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached - how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.” (Acts 10:37-38)

God empowered the man, Jesus, by anointing Jesus with His Spirit. The anointing enabled Jesus to act WITH THE POWER OF GOD… He was not God but could act with God’s power. And this is what trinitarian leaders are confused by and confuse their believers with: Because Jesus acted in the power of God, they believe Jesus WAS GOD.

Yes the anointing by the Holy Spirit made Jesus ready for His ministry, but did not make Jesus the Christ, because He was the Christ when He was born. (Luke 2:11)
I have been stupid and arrogant to think that you would be able to see and understand what I have written to you.

 

[amazing grace]

Yes God used Isaiah to blind and deafen Israel (Isa 6:9,10) and this literary technique would have helped do that. I don't think that even in Isaiah it would have ever gotten to the stage of speaking about stuff that had already happened (such as the creation) and putting it in the past tense but wanting it to be understood as a prophecy for the future. You must really think that God wants to blind and deafen Christians just as He did with Israel concerning the Messiah.
I just think that you are so set on your particular interpretation of why Jesus is that you have deceived yourself, twisting the scriptures to mean something other than what they say.

My reference to Isaiah was to show how scripture uses the prophetic perfect tense - using the past tense when knowing that something stated was surely going to happen. I referenced Isaiah 53 nothing to do with Isaiah 6 so not sure why you brought that up.

The reason I used Heb 1:8,9 was to show that verses 8 and 9 were what God said about Jesus and that verse 10 ff are also verses God said about Jesus. (this can be seen with the and between 9 and 10.
Psalm 102: 25-27, speaking about God, was not a prophetic perfect tense prophecy and when Hebrews says that God actually said that part of scripture to the Son, it does not automatically turn into the prophetic perfect because it is being applied to the Son.
So it is saying that the heavens are the work of the Son and the Son laid the foundations of the earth.

I know why you used Hebrews 1:8,9 - you believe that God is calling His Son "God", i.e. saying Jesus is God. And this section of scripture comes from Psalm 45:6,7 not Psalm 102:25-27. I did not say Psalm 45:6,7 was a prophetic perfect tense. If you believe Hebrews 1:8,9 is making reference to Jesus being God - then in the same sense when Psalm 45:6,7 was written addressed and applicable to the king - "I address my verses to the king" - is the king "God"? And did God anoint Himself? Hebrews 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions. Does God have a God?

How can I think that Heb 1:10-12 is about the heavens and earth to come when it says:
10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

This IS the future tense and IS speaking about the time when the old creation (which Jesus made) will be changed to the new creation.

They killed Jesus during the old creation and God raised him from the dead - the old creation will cease and the return of Jesus Christ will usher in the new kingdom which he has been given authority to set up (Colossians 1) from which he will reign as king - the beginning of the new creation..
For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking . . . The author of Hebrews is lifting Hebrews 1:10-12 from the Psalms and applying it to Jesus Christ.

And yes Isa 44:24 tells us YHWH was alone stretching out the heavens and Heb 1:10-12 tells us that they are the work of Jesus hands.
Logically Jesus is YHWH and no other gods were doing it with Him. He is the God of heaven, sea and land.

If Isaiah 44:24 tells us that Yahweh ALONE, BY HIMSELF stretched out the heavens then logically God ALONE, BY HIMSELF did just that and the works of Jesus hands relate to the world to come. Jesus is not God. There is only one God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ - our Father and his Father, our God and his God.

 

[Soapy]

Yes the anointing by the Holy Spirit made Jesus ready for His ministry, but did not make Jesus the Christ, because He was the Christ when He was born. (Luke 2:11)
I have been stupid and arrogant to think that you would be able to see and understand what I have written to you.

Don’t beat yourself up about being wrong … a lesson learnt is praise earned. I certainly did understand what you wrote to me - and understood why you think how you do.

Q: What would you say that the purpose of an anointing was for?

Q: When would you say that God would ‘set aside’ an individual to be anointed by Him?

Q: After YHWH anointed Jesus of Nazareth WITH YHWH’S SPIRIT AND POWER, why do you think YHWH made Jesus (now called ‘Christ’ - ‘the anointed one’) go into the wilderness to be ‘Tempted of the Devil’?

Q: What did Jesus tell the people in the synagogue on the first sabbath after he returned from the wilderness?

Q: Did Jesus perform any miracles before he was anointed with ‘holy spirit’ and power? And what about afterwards?

Q: Where do you think Jesus obtained the power and authority to perform miracles - note that Jesus always prayed to YHWH before performing any miracle (oops, that’s a big hint!!)

Thank you in advance in anticipation of your worthy responses.

 

[Brian2]

I know why you used Hebrews 1:8,9 - you believe that God is calling His Son "God", i.e. saying Jesus is God. And this section of scripture comes from Psalm 45:6,7 not Psalm 102:25-27. I did not say Psalm 45:6,7 was a prophetic perfect tense. If you believe Hebrews 1:8,9 is making reference to Jesus being God - then in the same sense when Psalm 45:6,7 was written addressed and applicable to the king - "I address my verses to the king" - is the king "God"? And did God anoint Himself? Hebrews 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions. Does God have a God?

I told you why I used Heb 1:8,9 and it had nothing to do with what you say.

They killed Jesus during the old creation and God raised him from the dead - the old creation will cease and the return of Jesus Christ will usher in the new kingdom which he has been given authority to set up (Colossians 1) from which he will reign as king - the beginning of the new creation..
For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking . . . The author of Hebrews is lifting Hebrews 1:10-12 from the Psalms and applying it to Jesus Christ.

I had a feeling you would not understand what I said. I'll try one more time.
How can I think that Heb 1:10-12 is about the heavens and earth to come when it says:
Heb 1:10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

You are right that Hebrews 1:10-12 is from the Psalms and is applied to Jesus.
It tells us what God has said about the Son, that He laid the foundations of the earth in the beginning and that the heavens are the work of His hands.
When we ask which creation it is talking about where Jesus did these things we read in the beginning and this tells us that it was this old creation, the one that was created in the beginning. (Gen 1:1)
If this is not enough we also see in Heb 1:10-12 that the heavens and earth that the Son had a hand in making will perish and be rolled up like a garment. This indicates also that the creation that Jesus had a hand in making is the one that is going to perish, this old creation.

The whole of Hebrews 1 seems to be showing that Jesus is so much more than angels and infact that He is the Son of God and just like His Father and has the same nature as His Father and even has inherited His Father's name. And this is just the first few verses. It goes on to extol the virtues of Jesus even more and even shows that He created the heavens and earth. Then it says (verse 13) that God is serving Him and putting all His enemies under the Son's feet.
Then it tells us about angels (verse 14) and what they are and that we should be careful not to drift away from what we have heard because the world to come, which we are speaking about is not to be subject to angels but to us.

Heb 1:13 To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Heb 2:1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.

So the whole thing is comparing angels to Jesus and to us humans. This has led scholars to interpret that the letter was probably addressed to people who were or were in danger of worshipping angels.
The the author goes on to say that he is talking about the world to come which will be subject to humans and not to angels.
That does not change the meaning of what Jesus made in Heb 1:10-12. That has already been established. He made that which is going to perish.
But of course Heb 1:10-12 does hint at the New Creation that will come after the old creation, just as it hinted that also in Psalm 102.

 

[amazing grace]

I told you why I used Heb 1:8,9 and it had nothing to do with what you say.

Yes, you are using this whole section of Hebrews 1 to convey the idea that Jesus is God.
I quote you here: And yes Isa 44:24 tells us YHWH was alone stretching out the heavens and Heb 1:10-12 tells us that they are the work of Jesus hands. Logically Jesus is YHWH and no other gods were doing it with Him. He is the God of heaven, sea and land. [unquote]

I had a feeling you would not understand what I said. I'll try one more time.
How can I think that Heb 1:10-12 is about the heavens and earth to come when it says:
Heb 1:10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

You are right that Hebrews 1:10-12 is from the Psalms and is applied to Jesus.
It tells us what God has said about the Son, that He laid the foundations of the earth in the beginning and that the heavens are the work of His hands.
When we ask which creation it is talking about where Jesus did these things we read in the beginning and this tells us that it was this old creation, the one that was created in the beginning. (Gen 1:1)
If this is not enough we also see in Heb 1:10-12 that the heavens and earth that the Son had a hand in making will perish and be rolled up like a garment. This indicates also that the creation that Jesus had a hand in making is the one that is going to perish, this old creation.

Okay. I will go with this because it will be logical - more logical than trying to say Jesus had a hand in the creation of the heavens and earth when he wasn't even born yet, he did not yet exist. V10 starts off with "And" - so the question to ask ourselves - is the next section still talking about Jesus or is it directly pulled from Ps. 110 in relation to Yahweh? IOW, did the object of the subject change from Jesus to Yahweh? We know from Gen. 1 that God created. We know from Isaiah that Yahweh ALONE, BY HIMSELF stretched out the heavens and and spread out the earth.

The whole of Hebrews 1 seems to be showing that Jesus is so much more than angels and infact that He is the Son of God and just like His Father and has the same nature as His Father and even has inherited His Father's name. And this is just the first few verses. It goes on to extol the virtues of Jesus even more and even shows that He created the heavens and earth. Then it says (verse 13) that God is serving Him and putting all His enemies under the Son's feet.
Then it tells us about angels (verse 14) and what they are and that we should be careful not to drift away from what we have heard because the world to come, which we are speaking about is not to be subject to angels but to us.

Heb 1:13 To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Heb 2:1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.

So the whole thing is comparing angels to Jesus and to us humans. This has led scholars to interpret that the letter was probably addressed to people who were or were in danger of worshipping angels.
The the author goes on to say that he is talking about the world to come which will be subject to humans and not to angels.
That does not change the meaning of what Jesus made in Heb 1:10-12. That has already been established. He made that which is going to perish.
But of course Heb 1:10-12 does hint at the New Creation that will come after the old creation, just as it hinted that also in Psalm 102.

Yes, all mankind was made a little lower than the angels which just reaffirms that Jesus was a true human being, not "God in the flesh", nor a "God-man" but like all of us, mankind, was made a little lower than the angels but God exalted him to his own right hand, crowning him with glory and honor. God was never "a little lower than the angels".

 

[Brian2]

Yes, you are using this whole section of Hebrews 1 to convey the idea that Jesus is God.
I quote you here: And yes Isa 44:24 tells us YHWH was alone stretching out the heavens and Heb 1:10-12 tells us that they are the work of Jesus hands. Logically Jesus is YHWH and no other gods were doing it with Him. He is the God of heaven, sea and land. [unquote]

It is true that Hebrews 1 shows the superiority of the Son over the angels and that He is equal to His Father and is God, but I had originally included Bebrews 1:8,9 to show that Heb 1:8,9 was what God had said about His Son and that with the "And" between Hebrews 1:8,9 and Hebrews 1:10-12, that Hebrews 1:10-12 also was what God had said about His Son.

Okay. I will go with this because it will be logical - more logical than trying to say Jesus had a hand in the creation of the heavens and earth when he wasn't even born yet, he did not yet exist. V10 starts off with "And" - so the question to ask ourselves - is the next section still talking about Jesus or is it directly pulled from Ps. 110 in relation to Yahweh? IOW, did the object of the subject change from Jesus to Yahweh? We know from Gen. 1 that God created. We know from Isaiah that Yahweh ALONE, BY HIMSELF stretched out the heavens and and spread out the earth.

Why would the author throw in Hebrews 1:10-12 from Psalm 102 if it had nothing to do with what he had been talking about?
He has been talking about what God said about the Son compared to what He said about the angels.
From verse 5 on to the end of the chapter the contrast is between the Son and angels and you want the author to throw in a quote at Heb 1:10-12 that has nothing to do with the theme. That is strange, especially since we have;
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,

The And joins 2 quotes about the Son.

And the quote at Heb 1:10-12 makes sense being about the Son when we see in Heb 1:2 that God created the world through the Son.
This "through the son" shows us that He, the Word, was the Son when the world was created through Him.

What you said about Jesus not yet having been born at the creation of the world makes sense until you realise that I was just using the name "Jesus" to refer to the pre human Jesus, the Word, and that it did not mean that the human Jesus was there creating the world in the beginning.

Yes, all mankind was made a little lower than the angels which just reaffirms that Jesus was a true human being, not "God in the flesh", nor a "God-man" but like all of us, mankind, was made a little lower than the angels but God exalted him to his own right hand, crowning him with glory and honor. God was never "a little lower than the angels".

Yes the Son of God was sent to become a man, lower than the angels and we can see in Phil 2 that He chose to do that.
Phil 2: 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

The pre human Jesus decided to empty himself and take the form of a servant and become a man.

 

[Dimi95]

Yes, all mankind was made a little lower than the angels which just reaffirms that Jesus was a true human being, not "God in the flesh", nor a "God-man" but like all of us, mankind, was made a little lower than the angels but God exalted him to his own right hand, crowning him with glory and honor. God was never "a little lower than the angels".

Yet 1 Corinthians 15 says otherwise

"The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

also

John 3
"I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven-the Son of Man."

 

[Soapy]

Yet 1 Corinthians 15 says otherwise

"The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

Who are those who are of Heaven?

also

John 3
"I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven-the Son of Man."

Are you saying that ‘The Son of Man’ (a physical entity, a human Being) came ‘down’ from Heaven (the abode of non-physical entities, Spirits)?

 

[Soapy]

It is true that Hebrews 1 shows the superiority of the Son over the angels and that He is equal to His Father and is God, but I had originally included Bebrews 1:8,9 to show that Heb 1:8,9 was what God had said about His Son and that with the "And" between Hebrews 1:8,9 and Hebrews 1:10-12, that Hebrews 1:10-12 also was what God had said about His Son.



Why would the author throw in Hebrews 1:10-12 from Psalm 102 if it had nothing to do with what he had been talking about?
He has been talking about what God said about the Son compared to what He said about the angels.
From verse 5 on to the end of the chapter the contrast is between the Son and angels and you want the author to throw in a quote at Heb 1:10-12 that has nothing to do with the theme. That is strange, especially since we have;
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,

The And joins 2 quotes about the Son.

And the quote at Heb 1:10-12 makes sense being about the Son when we see in Heb 1:2 that God created the world through the Son.
This "through the son" shows us that He, the Word, was the Son when the world was created through Him.

What you said about Jesus not yet having been born at the creation of the world makes sense until you realise that I was just using the name "Jesus" to refer to the pre human Jesus, the Word, and that it did not mean that the human Jesus was there creating the world in the beginning.




Yes the Son of God was sent to become a man, lower than the angels and we can see in Phil 2 that He chose to do that.

Phil 2: 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

The pre human Jesus decided to empty himself and take the form of a servant and become a man.

What does it mean to ‘Grasp’ at equality with God?

Are you ‘Grasping’ at straws - TRYING TO TAKE HOLD OF something that cannot benefit you?

The verse in Phil 2 is saying that ‘Though Jesus was endowed by anointing with THE POWER OF GOD Jesus did not set himself AS GOD by abusing or misusing that power, BUT INSTEAD made himself a servant to mankind’.

I show you the truth… it is down to you to understand and accept it.

 

[Dimi95]

Who are those who are of Heaven?

You question is inaccurate.
Who is of Heaven , can you answer?

Are you saying that ‘The Son of Man’ (a physical entity, a human Being) came ‘down’ from Heaven (the abode of non-physical entities, Spirits)?

Is Son of Man only physival entity , Human Being?

 

[wellwisher]

In trinitarian belief, Jesus Christ was born as the first of all creation.

Yet, in the same trinitarian belief, Jesus Christ was never born because he is God, who is not a creation!

Are these two contradictory claims from one belief system?

As an analogy, say I just got a new job in a well stocked laboratory, with access to all types of resources. My first creation in that lab is a widget. That new type of widget is the first born of my brain children; fruition, but it only happened after the lab was set up for success. Jesus is the like the first widget of creation, but he not the Lab of God, that was already setup before that creation; ancient of days.

 

[Soapy]

As an analogy, say I just got a new job in a well stocked laboratory, with access to all types of resources. My first creation in that lab is a widget. That new type of widget is the first born of my brain children; fruition, but it only happened after the lab was set up for success. Jesus is the like the first widget of creation, but he not the Lab of God, that was already setup before that creation; ancient of days.

No!!

God created something that had been unknown - a physical world.

The physical world is a tangible but limited (by way of physical laws) of the spirit world (Heaven).

But a world filled with all things required to sustain it still needs a manager. So God created MAN… an image of Himself to be ruler over the physical world as He is ruler over the Spirit world.

But Man was like a child and could not manage the physical - he could only oversee the animals, so God out his created heavenly angels in charge - which is to say, ‘Man was made a little lower than the angels … for a time!’ (Paraphrased)

The Angel who sinned first and came to be called ‘[The] Satan’ was the STEWARD ANGEL over the creation - hence Jesus says ‘The ruler of this works has come into his kingdom’ and also why Satan was able to say to Jesus, ‘Bow down and worship me and I will give you this world - it is mine to give to whom I will…’ (It is a half lie but we expect that from Satan!)

(Are you going to ask me what a STEWARD is in regard to rulership? Think about a placeholder for a king who cannot yet take his place because he is too young for the office!)

God created Adam as the first ruler (in waiting) - The first SON OF GOD, the very image of God: holy, sinless, righteous in all his ways — until sin was found in him!!

Run forward… In the fullness of time God created a SECOND SINLESS, HOLY, RIGHTEOUS MAN, the Second, and LAST Adam, whom God gave the name, ‘Yeshua’ (Jesus), saying, ‘Behold my servant whom I have chosen. I will put my spirit on him and he will do my bidding!’ (Paraphrased).

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Omg this thread is such a waste of time.

Soapy, honestly, you have had literally a hundred texts quoted to you in support of trinitarian doctrine and you have ignored every one of them instead spitting out unsupported replies without any biblical referencing.

It is pointless debating with someone who is unable to comit themselves to studying biblical cross references.

The simplest answer to your responses is this...and you either take it or find something else to crow about...

Our Saviour, the Messiah took upon Himself the form of a man and died on the cross for HIS own Creation.

Phil 2:5 (cross reference is Isaiah 52)

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, existing in the form of God,

did not consider equality with God

something to be grasped,a

7but emptied Himself,

taking the form of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

8And being found in appearance as a man,

He humbled Himself

and became obedient to death—

even death on a cross.