Jesus - First Born?

[Soapy]

Neither do I but I have heard it said by some trinitarians that Jesus carried God's DNA. It's just hard sometimes to express my position as to how and why Jesus had to be created in order to be our perfect Passover Lamb without blemish.

When someone argues a point of spiritualism with ‘DNA of God’, you know you’re not going to have a cogent debate with them.

Adam was created perfectly - "And God saw all that he had made, and behold it was very good." When Adam sinned, it resulted in "sin came into the world and death through sin". It also broke that intimate relationship between God and man. So God's plan to "fix" this was set forth in Gen. 3:15. Then throughout the OT, prophecies were given concerning this coming prophet, servant, anointed King, etc. None of the prophecies were about God coming to earth "clothed in flesh as a man", i.e the incarnation. I think you would agree here.

Adam could not have been created ‘Perfect’ - not literally ‘Perfect’… ‘Very Good’ is not ‘Perfect’. This was purposeful on God’s part - not a failing!

Remember that he lacked the ability to know good from bad, also lacked the ability to live eternally.

Sin comes from the unauthorised desire to acquire something not already in possession. It was the desire to acquire knowledge of good and bad that led Eve (and subsequently, Adam) to fail to keep God’s command.

Now, we can discuss creating. Creation is the means by which God has brought things to pass outside of that which would occur naturally. He caused a human life to begin in the womb of Mary by an act of supernatural creation, not mystical incarnation (Matt 1:18; Luke 1:35). Then He had to work with the growing child to help him maintain his sinless condition (until the time he was anointed with holy spirit and be empowered to do the work God gave Him to do. The concept that Jesus was "God in the flesh" nullifies the absolute necessity of Jesus's obedience, because as God, no temptation he faced would be genuine. God cannot be tempted because God cannot sin and IMO devalues the life of Jesus.

Yes! As stated, sin comes from the desire to acquire something illegally. In the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness:

1. Jesus was tempted to misuse the power of God to turn stones into bread to satisfy a bodily need
2. Jesus was tempted to call upon God to save him from physical injury and glorify himself by being seen to fall from a great height without hurrying himself (imagine Jesus’ followers trying to copy him doing this!?)
3. Jesus was tempted to acquire the great prize ‘that awaited the son of God from before the world was!’ - Rulership over the whole of God’s creation. Satan knew the Son of God would have to suffer humiliation, flogging, scourging, being spat upon, disbelieved as being the great messiah, and dying an excruciating death. Satan was the Stewarding Angel over creation and told Jesus he could bypass all of these offensive things and hand over the rulership to Jesus if Jesus bowed down in worship to him

God is the owner of all things that He has created therefore there is nothing that He can be tempted with. And Yes!, again, if Jesus was God … how could he be tempted to acquire anything when he already owned everything (Like Trinitarians are always saying: ‘Jesus said everything the Father owns is his… he was the owner of all things!’. Of course, Jesus only said this after he had finished the work God gave him to do.. shortly before he was to die)

Further, Romans 5:12-19 clearly defines a logical parallel between Adam and Jesus Christ in the context of the redemption of mankind. A major consequence of the doctrine that God became man is that it destroys this key parallel, for Adam is hardly comparable to an eternally pre-existent being. Rather, he was a created being made in the image of the One who created him, God. Adam was not “fully man and fully God,” “100 percent man and 100 percent God,” “coequal with God the Father,” or “of the same substance as the Father.” Adam was a created, empowered being who chose to disobey a direct command of God, with dire consequences to himself and all mankind as a result. (a lot of this information and wording came from biblicalunitarian.com - created or incarnate)

Yes! Trinitarians continually state that Jesus, the Son of God, is the Image of God… but PURPOSELY FORGET that Adam, too, in the day of his creation, was also ‘Son of God’, made in the Image of God!!

And they ignore all the information I highlighted to them about ‘The first sins and another is brought forward to replace him’: How many examples can you find of exactly this in the scriptures:

1. ADAM …
2. Cain - first son, sins… replaced by Seth
3. Ishmael … Isaac
4. Esau … Jacob
5. First brother of Joseph … joseph
6. First brother of David … David
7. Saul … David
8. First brother of Solomon … Solomon
9. Ephraim … Judah
10. … JESUS

Yes, so many examples but fear of the truth turns them into deniers of a useful fact.

But "Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and authority and power . . . . When all things are in subjection to him (Jesus), then the Son himself will also subjected to him (God) who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all." Could it be, when Jesus hands over His Kingdom, i.e. the Millennial Kingdom, that God sits upon His throne and the Son sits at His right hand in the eternal kingdom?

I would urge you to read Revelation 20:4 to Rev 22:5.

These verse outline the sequence of symbolic prophesied events:

1. Jesus and the elect reign for a thousand years after the first resurrection
2. Satan is released after the thousand years are over … later thrown into the lake of fire
3. ‘A GREAT WHITE THRONE’ comes down - IT IS NOT the Throne of God. This one has Jesus seated on it.
4. Jesus judges those of the SECOND resurrection in which those whom Jesus judges as worthy go into eternal life paradise and those who are not written into the great book are eternally destroyed along with Death and Hades
5. Then GOD says, ‘Behold I am making all things new!’
6. A new Heaven and Earth (Creation) comes replaces the old sinful one (see my numbered list previous to this list) and a great city comes down out of Heaven FROM GOD
7. God and Jesus rule from their own thrones from the great city in which only the saved will enter (a symbolic ‘Paradise’)

The symbolism of the great city is not my forte!

 

[Soapy]

Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect

How could Jesus be made like his brethren in every way if he was almighty God under the flesh exterior?

Or are you suggesting that all brethren’s are ‘GOD UNDER THE SKIN’.

Truly, trinitarian ideology requires more than a pinch of salt to make sense? Half the bag, I’d say!

 

[Soapy]

A son is a copy.

Oh, SO BAD!!!!!

Your statement is one from a FLESHLY standpoint - a PROCREATION.

Oooohhh …. Very bad!!!!

Jesus is not a ‘COPY’ of God. If he were then all reality is broken.

God DOES NOT PROCREATE.

God does not procreate.

God only CREATES. Spirit cannot procreate / it can only CREATE!!

The meaning, spiritually, of ‘A Son’ must be defined in a SPIRITUAL SENSE… spirit for spirit!

It means: “HE WHO DOES THE WORKS OF THE [One who gives him the work]”

Jesus told the Jews that he called himself the son of God BECAUSE he was:

• ‘Doing the works of God’
• Do not believe me if I am not [doing the works my Father gave me to do]: Healing the sick, making the lame to walk, giving sight to the blind, teaching the good news of the kingdom of God

Apostle Paul adopted the runaway slave, Onesimus, as HIS SON… because Onesimus was so greatly doing all the things that Paul commanded him to do - Paul became a Father to Onesimus and Onesimus became a Son to Paul:

• ‘You are my Son; this day I have become your Father’

Onesimus was not a flesh copy of Paul. He was a SPIRITUAL SON because Onesimus ‘walked in the way of Paul’… and this applies to Jesus in regard to God…. As God said in places:

• “If you will walk in obedience to me and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.” (Zech 3:7)
• “If you [Solomon] do whatever I command you and walk in obedience to me and do what is right in my eyes by obeying my decrees and commands, as David my servant did, I will be with you.” (1 Kings 11:38)
• “He [Solomon] is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son.” (2 Samuel 7:13-14)
• And, “I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.” (2 Cor 6:28)

These, and likely others, testify that GOD’S SONS (and daughters) are they who do the works of God.

And, Jesus says of some of the Jews:

• ‘You are SONS OF THE DEVIL; You do the works of your Father - Hd was a liar from the beginning’

Once again, since Satan is a Spirit being, those Jews are not PROCREATIONS OF SATAN but rather, spiritual SONS because they do the world of Satan.

 

[Soapy]

So you agree that only God is good and that Jesus was good but don't finish the logic, that therefore Jesus was God.

When Jesus said that only God is good he was meaning that only God was incapable of sinning.

God is Spirit, and moreover, God is almighty. If almighty God was not ‘Ultimate Good’ then truth is in a precarious position.

Jesus failed to heal two men with blindness the first time. He had to dk if a second time.

Jesus got angry about the people misusing the temple did their money changing. It sounds ok that he did that because we understand that it was wrong for those people to do what they did but God could have and would have inflicted punishment on those people when he decided to do so. God doesn’t need someone to get angry on his behalf.

Jesus does not know the date or time of his return… only God knows.

God grants Jesus the powers, the authority to use those powers, the ability to give everlasting life at the end of time, the right to sit at his right hand… the right to judge the world, the right to reign over creation….

Yep! Only God is GOOD - and Jesus says it!

 

[amazing grace]

Through conception and not through creation. The life of Jesus came directly from God.

I understand that conception takes place "normally" with sperm from the Father fertilizing the egg of the mother and a zygote (a fertilized ovum) results - then between the 2nd to 8th week it is termed a fetus. Now we know that was not the process for Jesus or else he would have inherited the "sin nature" passed through by man so how did conception occur with Jesus? Poof - God gave him life? Or did God miraculously supply what was needed for Mary to conceive? IOW, I believe it was the power of God that caused Mary to conceive, not a pre-existent God the Son

He did not inherit any man nature from God but inherited the God nature.
BUT if Jesus did not have a sin nature (whatever that is) and if not having this sin nature means that Jesus was able to conquer temptation, then it did make it easier for Jesus to conquer temptation.

What exactly do you mean by "God nature"? I believe Jesus "himself suffered when tempted" (Heb. 2:18) so it was not easy.
If Jesus had a "fully divine side" that equipped him to avoid temptation, then he was not tempted in every respect as we are. (Heb. 4:15) And if he could not have actually given into temptation, then his "temptation" was not genuine nor a real test to his character. Heb. 5:8, 9 clearly says Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. Being made perfect, he became the source of salvation all who obey him. . . Jesus had to go through a process of purification and trial before he was "made perfect". He did not have some intrinsic "divine nature" derived from his "incarnation" independently of how he lived and behaved.

And we can see that Jesus had a copy of the God nature from His Father. And yes a son has the representation of the nature of his father, the son is not the father. But Jesus the Son of God had the perfect representation of the nature of His Father.
So yes, Jesus with this nature was able to overcome temptation.
Interestingly I see Jesus in a similar way to how I see a believer in Jesus, who is in the New Covenant and has the Holy Spirit.
This believer has a spirit that is born again through spiritual joining with the Spirit of Christ and has to learn and have his carnal mind changed/perfected and at the resurrection his whole body is perfected.
Jesus was born with that perfect spirit in union with the Father and His carnal mind was taught by His Father as He grew up and at His resurrection His carnal body was transformed/perfected.
So with Jesus He started off perfect in mind and grew up able to hear and follow the Spirit of God in Him and overcome temptation, which He was able to experience because of His carnal body and human nature.

All I can say is: And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man. (Luke 2:52) Doesn't say "Jesus's "human side" increased in wisdom while his "divine side" had all wisdom".

Jesus the baby who had left His Godly attributes in heaven for later, would have had to learn about His human life and carpentry and moral wisdom from the Spirit in Him.

All I can say is: And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man. (Luke 2:52) Doesn't say "Jesus's "human side" increased in wisdom while his "divine side" had all wisdom".

Well He came from God and from heaven according to the scriptures, so He was the Lord from heaven. (Something Elizabeth recognised-Luke 1:43, and Malachi also-Mal 3:1, and as the angels told the shepherds-Luke 2:12) But He was the Son with the same Divine nature that His Father has but not the Father, the only God.
I don't see angels as Divine nor from God, and I only see someone, something from God as Divine. Is that the case with you or do you have another definition?

Was Elizabeth expecting an "incarnate God" to be born of Mary? Or her Lord, the coming Messiah?
Who said anything about angels?

I see the incarnation as the life of the Son/Word coming from God in heaven, when He lived and being placed in the body that God had prepared for Him in Mary.
The body is made from created matter and so in that way He stepped into creation but the spirit of Jesus I see as being the life that lived with and in God. Yet His spirit was joined to His flesh just the same as our's is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, iow He was a man, a Divine man because of His spirit from God and He had the nature of His Father and took on Himself the nature of a servant also by becoming a man, and learned obedience to the death and was perfected through suffering so that now He has His glorified body.

Yep, whatever was needed for Mary to conceive was created and Mary became pregnant with Jesus - therefore Jesus was created.
God did not "step into creation". God did not become one of his created beings, i.e. a man.
I believe scripture records when Jesus received the Spirit of God, i.e. the Holy Spirit, at his baptism when he was anointed by God to empower him for his ministry.

What you saw sounds right to me. You probably say it better than I did.
Jesus overcame temptation and is an example to us, but He overcame temptation because of His nature from His Father.
His Father is the only God who lives in Jesus but it was Jesus the man who overcame the temptation, not His Father who lives in Him.
If we manage to overcome temptation it is us who do it even though God lives in us. But we don't always overcome temptation because we have not that Divine nature, we have a flawed nature that has to learn obedience, starting from a much lower level and from a state of being wounded.
Our High Priest understands us and understand where He came from and why He was able to overcome sin.

I believe what you responded to here were actually questions: Jesus was only tempted in his flesh but God overcame the temptation.???
Jesus was tempted but since he was God, he overcame the temptations but yet God cannot be tempted???
In what way could that be an example for us on how to walk in obedience and trust in God - Jesus accomplished this because he was God?
All humanity faces temptation without the advantage of being "100% God and 100% man"! In fact, if Jesus were "God" to say that he was able to resist temptation is to say nothing about him at all! Where is the genuine temptation and the test of his moral character - he's God!
Why is it that no one can see that the more Jesus's identity is pushed toward "deity" the less praiseworthy and commendable his accomplishments become because his works become that of a "God-man" for whom nothing is particularly difficult.

True, but if Jesus was good through His own human will power then the glory is all His. If Jesus is truly reflecting the goodness of God then Jesus is, as scripture tells us, the Son of God with the nature of God (reproduced or not does not matter). That reflects on His Father and glory goes to the Father also. Only God is good tells us that the Son is one thing (God) along with His Father imo.

In everything Jesus said and accomplished, he gave credit to God, his Father, the one true God.

OK but not as a mirror, the radiance comes from the Son, it is the Son who reflects the radiance of His Father by having the same radiance.

Why not? What does a mirror do but reflect an image and that is exactly what Jesus did - he reflected God's glory, he reflected God's goodness and he reflected God's character.

The Son does not have to be the Father is the Son is one thing with the Father.
Submitting to your Father, as His equal is a matter of serving ones equal.
The Father and Son know the truth, which one is the Father and which is the Son and the Son is the one who submits to His Father and the Father is the one who is the source of His Son, so within the Godhead there is relationship and order and the Son, being exactly like His Father, does not decide to be another God next to His Father.
They are distinct individuals but never separate really and the Son listens to His Father in all things, and if He did not do that then He would be presumptuous and usurping the authority of His Father.

I don't know but whenever I submitted to my father, it sure wasn't because he was my equal!
Yes, God knows He is the Father, the one true God and Jesus knows he is the Son and as such lived in obedience and submission to his Father, the one true God.

Jesus is the good shepherd, the LORD is my shepherd.
I see David as the King and shepherd over His people and I also see YHWH as the only King.
I also see Jesus as the firstborn of God, higher than the kings of the earth (Ps 89:27)
I see Him as the ruler of the creation of God (Rev 3:14)

I gave what I believed those verses to be saying - so I just have to disagree.

Jesus is saying that there is only one true God and even if the Son is in this God and is one thing with this God, that does not make the Son into the Father. It just means that within the one true God there are persons who have relationship with each other.
The source, the Father is called the one true God, but the one who is exactly like Him in nature and power and glory, is YHWH since there is none like YHWH and to whom can He be compared.

"Within the one true God there are three persons who have a relationship with each other" - sounds like multiple personality disorder to me

Satan seems to have been appealing to pride in Jesus.
But as Jesus said:
John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me. 31 But I do exactly what the Father has commanded Me, so that the world may know that I love the Father.
If Jesus had submitted to the temptation of Satan, then Satan would have a claim on Jesus just as he had on Adam and all of us, because we all sin.

I believe I was addressing the temptations 1) I don't believe the temptations had to do with pride and 2) Jesus never said John 14:30 in relation to the temptations. It was the fact that Jesus isn't addressed as "Son of Man" when Satan tempted him but as "Son of God".

 

[amazing grace]

There was no doubt in God's mind that Jesus would be able to overcome the temptation.
The prophecies were already in place.
It could have been to strengthen Jesus, so that He would never be tempted to doubt who He was or what He could do, even in His state of total weakness and vulnerability.

Without the potential for moral imperfection, Jesus would not have truly been like the first Adam. Also, if Jesus could not have sinned (disobey God) then he could not have truly been tempted in every respect as we are. (which we have already been over)
Jesus chose instead to obey God, whereas Adam chose to disobey God and we are to draw strength from his example.

A son is a copy. The Father copies Himself in timelessness and they spend the rest of timelessness confused with each other and loving and knowing each other with the Spirit.

Whatever that means. . . Okay.

Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. 16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Yes He was a flesh and blood human being as we all are. That is what is being said. But as you know He had a nature which was identical with the nature of God also. So you can't deny that in your beliefs He was different. And in your beliefs He had no sin nature, (which sort of means that He was not a human like the rest of us).
BUT in the above passage I see the pre existence of Jesus where it says that He partook of the same things. It sounds like He chose that as imo Phil 2 tells us.
When I was having trouble with JW doctrine and who Jesus was I used to see the distinctness of Jesus and God in scripture and not the oneness. That was a big thing that made me think that Jesus was not God in any way. We see what we want to see and we see what we have been taught is there. It's interesting the way our mind works both for and against us at times.
I ended up learning to see the oneness also. They are both there.

But we are NOT 100% God and 100% man!
Jesus had to be a 100% human being like Adam in order to save us from the penalty of sin and death brought on by the first man, Adam.
Adam was a "type of the one who was to come" (Rom. 5:14 . . Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come) a
Heb. 2:16, 17 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Jesus had man's limitations and need for dependence upon God to avoid sin. The only exception to the statement "made like his brothers in every respect" is that Jesus, being created in the womb of Mary by the power of the Most High, did not inherit man's sinful nature inherited from Adam. It took Jesus living a life of perfect obedience unto his death on the cross for God to raise him and make him the perfect high priest.

I don't think that this image of God means that Adam had the nature of God.
It is hard to know their motivation for sure. Eve was tricked and Adam was not tricked but just ate when Eve gave Him the fruit.
But anyway, the prehuman Jesus did not cling to the equality He already had and He did not want to grasp equality and start going against what His Father wanted. I see it in Phil 2 as working both wayways

My point that Adam and Eve were without the sin nature until they disobeyed God. Eve was deceived but it was through the one man's (Adam's) disobedience sin entered the world and death through sin.
They wanted to be like God, i.e. grasp at equality with God. Jesus didn't grasp at equality with God. Although it's been said that Jesus is equal with God . . . which one is it?

 

[amazing grace]

When someone argues a point of spiritualism with ‘DNA of God’, you know you’re not going to have a cogent debate with them.

True.

Adam could not have been created ‘Perfect’ - not literally ‘Perfect’… ‘Very Good’ is not ‘Perfect’. This was purposeful on God’s part - not a failing!

Remember that he lacked the ability to know good from bad, also lacked the ability to live eternally.

Sin comes from the unauthorised desire to acquire something not already in possession. It was the desire to acquire knowledge of good and bad that led Eve (and subsequently, Adam) to fail to keep God’s command.

Very good = exceedingly pleasant, agreeable, excellent, valuable - that's perfect to me.

But the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. . . . and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise - wise like God knowing good and evil. - Right, both ideas are correct, it was the desire to be wise like God knowing good and evil.

Adam and Eve would have lived eternally if they had not disobeyed because it was as a result of his disobedience that "sin came into the world and death through sin". (Rom. 5:12)

Yes! As stated, sin comes from the desire to acquire something illegally. In the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness:

1. Jesus was tempted to misuse the power of God to turn stones into bread to satisfy a bodily need
2. Jesus was tempted to call upon God to save him from physical injury and glorify himself by being seen to fall from a great height without hurrying himself (imagine Jesus’ followers trying to copy him doing this!?)
3. Jesus was tempted to acquire the great prize ‘that awaited the son of God from before the world was!’ - Rulership over the whole of God’s creation. Satan knew the Son of God would have to suffer humiliation, flogging, scourging, being spat upon, disbelieved as being the great messiah, and dying an excruciating death. Satan was the Stewarding Angel over creation and told Jesus he could bypass all of these offensive things and hand over the rulership to Jesus if Jesus bowed down in worship to him

God is the owner of all things that He has created therefore there is nothing that He can be tempted with. And Yes!, again, if Jesus was God … how could he be tempted to acquire anything when he already owned everything (Like Trinitarians are always saying: ‘Jesus said everything the Father owns is his… he was the owner of all things!’. Of course, Jesus only said this after he had finished the work God gave him to do.. shortly before he was to die)

Yes! Trinitarians continually state that Jesus, the Son of God, is the Image of God… but PURPOSELY FORGET that Adam, too, in the day of his creation, was also ‘Son of God’, made in the Image of God!!

And they ignore all the information I highlighted to them about ‘The first sins and another is brought forward to replace him’: How many examples can you find of exactly this in the scriptures:

1. ADAM …
2. Cain - first son, sins… replaced by Seth
3. Ishmael … Isaac
4. Esau … Jacob
5. First brother of Joseph … joseph
6. First brother of David … David
7. Saul … David
8. First brother of Solomon … Solomon
9. Ephraim … Judah
10. … JESUS

Yes, so many examples but fear of the truth turns them into deniers of a useful fact.

Okay.

I would urge you to read Revelation 20:4 to Rev 22:5.

These verse outline the sequence of symbolic prophesied events:

1. Jesus and the elect reign for a thousand years after the first resurrection
2. Satan is released after the thousand years are over … later thrown into the lake of fire
3. ‘A GREAT WHITE THRONE’ comes down - IT IS NOT the Throne of God. This one has Jesus seated on it.
4. Jesus judges those of the SECOND resurrection in which those whom Jesus judges as worthy go into eternal life paradise and those who are not written into the great book are eternally destroyed along with Death and Hades
5. Then GOD says, ‘Behold I am making all things new!’
6. A new Heaven and Earth (Creation) comes replaces the old sinful one (see my numbered list previous to this list) and a great city comes down out of Heaven FROM GOD
7. God and Jesus rule from their own thrones from the great city in which only the saved will enter (a symbolic ‘Paradise’)

The symbolism of the great city is not my forte!

Yes, I believe I said . . . . Could it be, when Jesus hands over His Kingdom, i.e. the Millennial Kingdom, that God sits upon His throne and the Son sits at His right hand in the eternal kingdom?

 

[Brian2]

How could Jesus be made like his brethren in every way if he was almighty God under the flesh exterior?

Or are you suggesting that all brethren’s are ‘GOD UNDER THE SKIN’.

I am saying that all are flesh and blood humans and that is what Jesus was.
He was the (living) Word who came to earth to be a man.
I guess you must think that everyone else is the Word made flesh as Jesus was.

 

[Brian2]

Oh, SO BAD!!!!!

Your statement is one from a FLESHLY standpoint - a PROCREATION.

Oooohhh …. Very bad!!!!

Jesus is not a ‘COPY’ of God. If he were then all reality is broken.

God DOES NOT PROCREATE.

God does not procreate.

God only CREATES. Spirit cannot procreate / it can only CREATE!!

You seem to be talking from a fleshly standpoint and to be making up things about God which from the Biblical standpoint is not true. Jesus is the begotten Son of God.

Jesus told the Jews that he called himself the son of God BECAUSE he was:

• ‘Doing the works of God’
• Do not believe me if I am not [doing the works my Father gave me to do]: Healing the sick, making the lame to walk, giving sight to the blind, teaching the good news of the kingdom of God

Have you any scriptures to show that?

Apostle Paul adopted the runaway slave, Onesimus, as HIS SON… because Onesimus was so greatly doing all the things that Paul commanded him to do - Paul became a Father to Onesimus and Onesimus became a Son to Paul:

• ‘You are my Son; this day I have become your Father’

Yes "son" is used in different ways in the Bible,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, so?

 

[Brian2]

When Jesus said that only God is good he was meaning that only God was incapable of sinning.

God is Spirit, and moreover, God is almighty. If almighty God was not ‘Ultimate Good’ then truth is in a precarious position.

Jesus failed to heal two men with blindness the first time. He had to dk if a second time.

Jesus got angry about the people misusing the temple did their money changing. It sounds ok that he did that because we understand that it was wrong for those people to do what they did but God could have and would have inflicted punishment on those people when he decided to do so. God doesn’t need someone to get angry on his behalf.

Jesus does not know the date or time of his return… only God knows.

God grants Jesus the powers, the authority to use those powers, the ability to give everlasting life at the end of time, the right to sit at his right hand… the right to judge the world, the right to reign over creation….

Yep! Only God is GOOD - and Jesus says it!

Jesus did not sin and you seem to be saying that Jesus sinned. Hmmmm
You also seem to be equating Jesus limits as a man with "sin". Why?
Is it being righteous to be tempted to sin and to not sin or to be incapable of being tempted?
And no I am not saying that Jesus is gooder than God.
I am saying that Jesus showed Himself to be completely righteous,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, good,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, sinless,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, not able to be any better.

 

[Soapy]

I understand that conception takes place "normally" with sperm from the Father fertilizing the egg of the mother and a zygote (a fertilized ovum) results - then between the 2nd to 8th week it is termed a fetus. Now we know that was not the process for Jesus or else he would have inherited the "sin nature" passed through by man so how did conception occur with Jesus? Poof - God gave him life? Or did God miraculously supply what was needed for Mary to conceive? IOW, I believe it was the power of God that caused Mary to conceive, not a pre-existent God the Son

What exactly do you mean by "God nature"? I believe Jesus "himself suffered when tempted" (Heb. 2:18) so it was not easy.
If Jesus had a "fully divine side" that equipped him to avoid temptation, then he was not tempted in every respect as we are. (Heb. 4:15) And if he could not have actually given into temptation, then his "temptation" was not genuine nor a real test to his character. Heb. 5:8, 9 clearly says Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. Being made perfect, he became the source of salvation all who obey him. . . Jesus had to go through a process of purification and trial before he was "made perfect". He did not have some intrinsic "divine nature" derived from his "incarnation" independently of how he lived and behaved.

All I can say is: And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man. (Luke 2:52) Doesn't say "Jesus's "human side" increased in wisdom while his "divine side" had all wisdom".

All I can say is: And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man. (Luke 2:52) Doesn't say "Jesus's "human side" increased in wisdom while his "divine side" had all wisdom".

Was Elizabeth expecting an "incarnate God" to be born of Mary? Or her Lord, the coming Messiah?
Who said anything about angels?

Yep, whatever was needed for Mary to conceive was created and Mary became pregnant with Jesus - therefore Jesus was created.
God did not "step into creation". God did not become one of his created beings, i.e. a man.
I believe scripture records when Jesus received the Spirit of God, i.e. the Holy Spirit, at his baptism when he was anointed by God to empower him for his ministry.

I believe what you responded to here were actually questions: Jesus was only tempted in his flesh but God overcame the temptation.???
Jesus was tempted but since he was God, he overcame the temptations but yet God cannot be tempted???
In what way could that be an example for us on how to walk in obedience and trust in God - Jesus accomplished this because he was God?
All humanity faces temptation without the advantage of being "100% God and 100% man"! In fact, if Jesus were "God" to say that he was able to resist temptation is to say nothing about him at all! Where is the genuine temptation and the test of his moral character - he's God!
Why is it that no one can see that the more Jesus's identity is pushed toward "deity" the less praiseworthy and commendable his accomplishments become because his works become that of a "God-man" for whom nothing is particularly difficult.

In everything Jesus said and accomplished, he gave credit to God, his Father, the one true God.

Why not? What does a mirror do but reflect an image and that is exactly what Jesus did - he reflected God's glory, he reflected God's goodness and he reflected God's character.

I don't know but whenever I submitted to my father, it sure wasn't because he was my equal!
Yes, God knows He is the Father, the one true God and Jesus knows he is the Son and as such lived in obedience and submission to his Father, the one true God.

I gave what I believed those verses to be saying - so I just have to disagree.

"Within the one true God there are three persons who have a relationship with each other" - sounds like multiple personality disorder to me

I believe I was addressing the temptations 1) I don't believe the temptations had to do with pride and 2) Jesus never said John 14:30 in relation to the temptations. It was the fact that Jesus isn't addressed as "Son of Man" when Satan tempted him but as "Son of God".

Please be careful to read exactly what Brian2 says to you. He will use a little trick of saying wrongful things which you easily see as fallacy - and then say something true which you might disagree with JUST BECAUSE you expect him to say false things.

I believe that Brian2 is just playing a game in his posts. I’ve seen this many times - note how he openly states that the Father is the only true God but then goes on to say that Jesus is God, too. He may not say that Jesus is ‘the only true…’ God, but he might draw you into saying that he did. He can then accuse you of misrepresenting his words.

 

[Soapy]

Jesus did not sin and you seem to be saying that Jesus sinned. Hmmmm
You also seem to be equating Jesus limits as a man with "sin". Why?
Is it being righteous to be tempted to sin and to not sin or to be incapable of being tempted?
And no I am not saying that Jesus is gooder than God.
I am saying that Jesus showed Himself to be completely righteous,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, good,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, sinless,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, not able to be any better.

Ooohhh, very clever of you…

I did not, nor would ever say, that Jesus sinned. My point was, and you know it…!, was that if God chose to heal a person then the person would be healed… it wouldn’t take a double hit to do it. And God would not need to be aggressively angry, even if righteously so, over the men sellling illegally in the temple. He would have set a time to punish them. Jesus took matters into his own hands. GOD did not claim it’s a sin against Jesus and I never said that. RIGHTEOUS Wrong doing is not always a sin but it’s not something we should willingly replicate else we have the beginnings of riotous behaviour whenever we don’t like something - as the saying goes: ‘Let the LAW handle it’ no matter how angry you feel about it.

So you see, Brian2, ONLY GOD IS GOOD in respect of all things.

However, I am happy you haven’t taken the usually tacky path Trinitarians usually take by saying:

• ‘If you are saying Jesus wasn’t ‘Good’ then you are saying that Jesus was bad!! - and we know Jesus wasn’t bad - therefore if only God is good and Jesus wasn’t bad then he must be good - and therefore he is God’

Whooweee! Turgid logic from desperate desperadoes…!!

Oh, of course, you’ve “never heard anyone say that before”. Well, that’s because Trinitarians make up stuff individually or deny it from another trinitarian if they see the claim exposed as fallacy!!

Me! It’s not the first, nor second, … time I’ve debated this ‘Jesus is God because only God is good’ theme!!

 

[Brian2]

Ooohhh, very clever of you…

I did not, nor would ever say, that Jesus sinned. My point was, and you know it…!, was that if God chose to heal a person then the person would be healed… it wouldn’t take a double hit to do it. And God would not need to be aggressively angry, even if righteously so, over the men sellling illegally in the temple. He would have set a time to punish them. Jesus took matters into his own hands. GOD did not claim it’s a sin against Jesus and I never said that. RIGHTEOUS Wrong doing is not always a sin but it’s not something we should willingly replicate else we have the beginnings of riotous behaviour whenever we don’t like something - as the saying goes: ‘Let the LAW handle it’ no matter how angry you feel about it.

So you see, Brian2, ONLY GOD IS GOOD in respect of all things.

So you interpret Jesus not healing the blind man the first time as a fault in Jesus and you interpret Jesus chasing people from the Temple as Jesus not being completely righteous. Not being completely righteous is actually sinning. It is like Moses when he struck the rock twice and so was not allowed in the promised land. That was called sin by God and how much more would it be called sin if the Messiah did it, or does the Messiah get a free pass to sin?
Do you think that the Messiah who came to earth to judge the Jewish nation, was not supposed to be angry with those who were insulting His Fathers house and with the Priests and Teachers of the Law who allowed it.
There is a lesson and probably more than one in the blind man who was only half healed and saw men like trees walking.
And there was a lesson in Jesus killing the fig tree etc.

Me! It’s not the first, nor second, … time I’ve debated this ‘Jesus is God because only God is good’ theme!!

Yes I see you have developed the argument that Jesus was not completely good.
So instead of "Jesus is God because only God is good and Jesus was good", you have "Only God is good, so Jesus was not good, even though He is exactly like His Father".

 

[Soapy]

I am saying that all are flesh and blood humans and that is what Jesus was.
He was the (living) Word who came to earth to be a man.
I guess you must think that everyone else is the Word made flesh as Jesus was.

Oh Brian2, you are so funny!

Let me address ‘Living word’…

A word is spoken… a prophesy… and then that prophesy comes to fruition… THAT ACTIONING OF THE PROPHESY is the LIVING WORD.

Prior to the prophesy coming to fruition it was dormant, awaiting activation.

Do not say, ‘Jesus came to be ….’. Say rather, ‘The messiah came to be…’

‘Jesus’ was never prophesied…. The MESSIAH was prophesied.

 

[SDavis]

In trinitarian belief, Jesus Christ was born as the first of all creation.

Yet, in the same trinitarian belief, Jesus Christ was never born because he is God, who is not a creation!

Are these two contradictory claims from one belief system?

First born of all creation is actually referring to Jesus being born in the flesh. A better translation would have been first begotten of all creation.

KJV w/ Strong's Concordance - Colossians 1

The King James ( KJV ) Bible. Commentaries, history books, and more are linked to this page

godrules.net

https://godrules.net/library/strongs2b/gre4416.htm

In the trinitarian belief - we do not believe that Jesus was created, as the angelic beings were and definitely do not believe Jesus was born other than on Earth in a flesh body the only Begotten Son of God - which means born in a human body. If one with think about it the Angels were not born so why would Christian's feel Jesus was the beginning.

We believe that Jesus always existed along with God our Father because he is directly of God our Father. Even man can clone an identical animal.

As written in John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God...... The Word of God indicates a Word spoken / which indicates that God spoke THE WORD that became a physical form of existence and that physical form which is the Word created all things that have physical form.
A view

Did Jesus exist in the beginning with God? – Eternal Truth Ministry

 

[Brian2]

Without the potential for moral imperfection, Jesus would not have truly been like the first Adam. Also, if Jesus could not have sinned (disobey God) then he could not have truly been tempted in every respect as we are. (which we have already been over)
Jesus chose instead to obey God, whereas Adam chose to disobey God and we are to draw strength from his example.

Even in His pre human life the Son of God was choosing to obey His Father. He chose to come to earth and not grasp equality by disobeying. That would have been the only way to either cling to or try to grab equality with God.
That also applies to the Son of God when He became a man. He had to choose to do good and not to do what His carnal side was telling Him to do.
The Father also chooses to be good or it is not truly being good. But the Father is not tempted to do the carnal things that we are tempted to do of course. It was His Son who was tempted by those things and showed, by His choices, that He was truly like His Father.
The Son's temptations also seem to go beyond the normal things that we might be tempted to do according to His temptations in the desert.
He was tempted to use His Divine powers to feed Himself.
He was tempted to show who He was.
He was tempted to win the war for earth and humanity the easy way.
Same principles but different temptations.
Why do you insist that Jesus must be like Adam and not have a sin nature? Why is that and what exactly is this sin nature and does it make it harder for humans to be sinless?

Whatever that means. . . Okay.

Yes I don't know how those 2 smileys with the word "confused" got there. I thought I just put one smiley and no "confused".
But yes, the Son of God is a copy of God imo. That is what a son is, but with the Son of God it has been that way from eternity,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but don't ask me to explain that or what timelessness is.
Being a copy does not mean that His nature is not exactly the same as His Father's however.
So when Hebrews says that the Son has the exact imprint of God's nature, it means that the Son is truly good for a start, perfectly moral. This means that Jesus was good and perfectly moral.
So if you think that Jesus was not able to sin, then you are probably right, and this would apply for your Jesus also, whom is exactly like His Father also.
But as I said, being good is a matter of choice even for the Father, or it means nothing.

But we are NOT 100% God and 100% man!
Jesus had to be a 100% human being like Adam in order to save us from the penalty of sin and death brought on by the first man, Adam.
Adam was a "type of the one who was to come" (Rom. 5:14 . . Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come) a
Heb. 2:16, 17 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Jesus had man's limitations and need for dependence upon God to avoid sin. The only exception to the statement "made like his brothers in every respect" is that Jesus, being created in the womb of Mary by the power of the Most High, did not inherit man's sinful nature inherited from Adam. It took Jesus living a life of perfect obedience unto his death on the cross for God to raise him and make him the perfect high priest.

God is spirit, the creator. Humans are both spirit and fleshly, and created.
So God, a spirit, can become joined to a fleshly body and be both God and a man, the creator who stepped into creation by being born joined to a body.
The Son did this, and being a man meant that He became a servant to His Father and His Father became His God.
But the Son is still the same Divine being and is also fully human. And not using His Godly powers, or turning them over to the care of His Father or whatever He did, meant that He was no different to us except in who He was as the Divine Man.

My point that Adam and Eve were without the sin nature until they disobeyed God. Eve was deceived but it was through the one man's (Adam's) disobedience sin entered the world and death through sin.
They wanted to be like God, i.e. grasp at equality with God. Jesus didn't grasp at equality with God. Although it's been said that Jesus is equal with God . . . which one is it?

Well the story says that Eve wanted to gain wisdom and so be like God in that respect (according to the snake), but I doubt that either of them thought they would be equal to God by knowing good and evil.
And I also doubt that your Jesus on earth thought that he would be equal to God by disobeying God.
The only time He might have been able to either show His equality or take it was in a pre existence where He could refuse to become a human and Messiah.
But He is like His Father and so of course did not choose that path.

 

[Soapy]

Through conception and not through creation. The life of Jesus came directly from God.

Hi, Brian2, did the life of the first man, Adam, come directly from God?

 

[Soapy]

In the trinitarian belief - we do not believe that Jesus was created

How strange that you say that Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus was created yet the trinitarian definition is that Jesus was the first begotten (Born)

• Heb Strong: H1060 H6363 H7218 H7223
  1. 1) the firstborn
     1a) of man or beast
     1b) of Christ, the first born of all creation

I understand that you understand it as you think, today. But the foundation of trinitarianism is that Jesus was the first born of all of God’s creations.

That was realised as not in keeping with an ETERNALLY AND PRE-EXISTENT GOD therefore the ideology was changed to say that Jesus was ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN… a ridiculous concept.

This underlines the ever changing trinity ideology of which I have spoken much about - The ideology rests on having several lines of argument that can be used at different (or the same) time to wriggle out of a difficult situation:

1. Jesus was begotten (born) by God as he first of God’s creation
2. Jesus was never born but rather was eternally begotten by (born of) God

(Jesus is constantly entitled, the Son of God, yet trinity cannot define what it means by ‘a Son’, let alone ‘Son OF God’. Yet they joyfully claim that GOD is Jesus’ Father… some as a ‘Copy’ of God, and others as being ‘Image’. But all deny that he was CREATED before the world was created since Jesus, they say, was the one who created all things… ummm…. But trinity claim is that Jesus IS the first of God’s creations… first of GOD’s CREATIONS!!! But not only that but Jesus, himself says: “I can ONLY DO what I see the Father doing’! So how did Jesus CREATE ALL THINGS if the Father didn’t created BEFORE Jesus?)

1. Jesus is God who knows all things
2. Jesus is a man who does not know all things (in fact, only what God shows him!)

(How can a single person both know and not know all things at the same time - and when do they decide that they know and don’t know all things!?)

1. Jesus died on the cross
2. Jesus did not die - only his body died!

(Why does the Christian world commemorate the death of Jesus Christ yearly when the pinnacle of Christian belief says that Jesus did not die?
What difference was there between Jesus dying and another human being dying… The Spirit of a man, at death, goes inert, resting with God: ‘Father, into thy hands I commit my Spirit!’. The body, without the spirit, is subject to decay. GOD put Jesus’ spirit BACK into the body BEFORE it could decay. God also made the body of Jesus a GLORIFIED body, an ETERNAL BODY, which will never die, immortal, not subject to death!)

1. Jesus RESUMED being God when GOD raised him up to Heaven
2. Jesus is a glorified man in Heaven

(If Jesus RESUMED being God then that means he WAS NOT GOD before he resumed being God! What was he before he resumed being God? Trinity reading of Phil 2 is that Jesus gave up being God…!!! Wow!!! But that then qualifies the trinity claim that he RESUMED being God.
But how does that figure with him being a man in Heaven? God is not a man so how has Jesus RESUMED being God but yet is a man in Heaven. How has he resumed being in the glory he had with God (???)… he wasn’t a man when he supposedly had glory with God before creation?)

1. Jesus is ‘He who is, was, and always will be’
2. Jesus is ‘He that was dead, BUT IS NOW alive forevermore

(If Jesus was dead at one point then it cannot be said that he has been eternal. Moreover, he says that he is NOW ETERNAL… which is from when he was resurrected by God: ‘Raised up never to taste death again!’
Only Almighty God:YHWH, the Father, has been, is, and always will be, Eternal

1. Jesus is “He that sat on the throne”
2. Jesus is the lamb - looking as though slaughtered - in the front of the throne, in the middle, AMONG the 24 elders and four beasts who are around his throne.

(The 24 and four are CREATED BEINGS and the Lamb is a created being!
Trinity claim is that Jesus is therefore BOTH GOD seated on the throne (‘The ancient of days’ from the night vision of Daniel) AND the Lamb looking like it had been slaughtered (or ‘The one like a son of man’ - a human being, from the night vision of Daniel)…)

 

[Brian2]

Hi, Brian2, did the life of the first man, Adam, come directly from God?

Adam was formed from dirt and received spirit from God. He was created and became a living being.
The last Adam, lived with God in heaven as a living spirit already, and was never created and that spirit person came directly from God and became a man with a fleshly body.
Thanks for pointing out my mistake. This way is a more accurate way of saying what I meant.

 

[Mark La Buda]

In trinitarian belief, Jesus Christ was born as the first of all creation.

Yet, in the same trinitarian belief, Jesus Christ was never born because he is God, who is not a creation!

Are these two contradictory claims from one belief system?

This is a man instituted doctrine. Regardless, the Trinity doctrine states something to this effect: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each without a beginning has existed for an eternity, not created, and equal. In other words, each is neither greater nor lesser than the other. How is the Holy Spirit to be identified? How can it be considered a “God”? It is God’s active force-not a spiritual being. Bible related scriptures do not support this. Compare-as a start: Genesis 1:26, 27; Proverbs 8:22; John 1:3; 17:5; Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14.

Read the four Gospels careful and see how Jesus stated his relationship with God. For example, one will be able to indentify about sixty (60) scriptures-in Matthew only-where Jesus stated/implied that he was inferior or not equal to God Almighty.