Jesus' Death on the cross

[GatorFan]

I know that in the Judaism, you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. What is your opinion on this?

 

[Dena]

I know that in the Judaism, you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. What is your opinion on this?

People don't come back from the dead unless they weren't really dead. That's my view.

 

[Tarheeler]

To answer both this question and http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/conservative-dir/103362-birth-jesus.html, I think Jesus was a man. And, like all other men, he had two human parents and lived and died like all men.

 

[Levite]

I know that in the Judaism, you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. What is your opinion on this?

Yes. Generally speaking, Judaism does not believe in any resurrection of the dead, save for that prophesied to come at the Judgment Day at the end of time (and many, many Jews feel that is not literal resurrection, but actually refers to the eternality of the soul).

This ties in with two other important beliefs in Judaism about Jesus: first of all, that he was not in any way divine, or the Son of God (a concept utterly incompatible with Jewish thought, which holds that God does not reproduce, and certainly not by impregnating human women). Thus, in our view, he has no unique prerogative or power that would explain why, alone among human beings, he is permitted to return from death. Second of all, that, while Jesus may have been a well-intentioned man, perhaps even somewhat saintly in his way, he was not the messiah, nor a prophet, nor had he any kind of tremendous spiritual potency that might explain why God would resurrect him from the dead, alone among human beings.

So, for us, it makes no more sense to believe that Jesus was resurrected than it would be to believe that, say, Abraham Lincoln, or Ghandi came back to life after their deaths. Great people, sure. But just human beings, after all.

 

[David_2010]

Yes. Generally speaking, Judaism does not believe in any resurrection of the dead, save for that prophesied to come at the Judgment Day at the end of time (and many, many Jews feel that is not literal resurrection, but actually refers to the eternality of the soul).

This ties in with two other important beliefs in Judaism about Jesus: first of all, that he was not in any way divine, or the Son of God (a concept utterly incompatible with Jewish thought, which holds that God does not reproduce, and certainly not by impregnating human women). Thus, in our view, he has no unique prerogative or power that would explain why, alone among human beings, he is permitted to return from death. Second of all, that, while Jesus may have been a well-intentioned man, perhaps even somewhat saintly in his way, he was not the messiah, nor a prophet, nor had he any kind of tremendous spiritual potency that might explain why God would resurrect him from the dead, alone among human beings.

So, for us, it makes no more sense to believe that Jesus was resurrected than it would be to believe that, say, Abraham Lincoln, or Ghandi came back to life after their deaths. Great people, sure. But just human beings, after all.

I know I'm not the OP, but, that's quite a good response, and, not to get OT or hijack the thread, in Judaism, would it be seen as possible for Jesus, or other Holy men & women (or not so Holy people) to wield the types of powers Jesus had (or is said to have had anyway), even without being God?

 

[Levite]

I know I'm not the OP, but, that's quite a good response, and, not to get OT or hijack the thread, in Judaism, would it be seen as possible for Jesus, or other Holy men & women (or not so Holy people) to wield the types of powers Jesus had (or is said to have had anyway), even without being God?.

There have certainly been people in the tradition who are said to have worked wonders. With the exception of raising the dead, exploits such as producing food, curing ailments, exorcism, or other such marvels have been ascribed not only to some of the prophets in the Tanakh, but also to some of the Rabbis of the Talmud, and very occasionally to other rabbis in the ages since. However, aside from the prophets, who did what they did because God directly invested them with the authority and power to do so, it is generally believed that only through great personal saintliness, endless hours of learning Torah, and long, long study of the Kabbalah can one attain such gifts from God.

And in any case, they may make one special, but not superhuman or divine.

Also, there is nothing in the tradition that says that at least some of those kinds of wonders may not be replicable with magic, in ways not necessarily having anything whatsoever to do with God or saintliness or Torah.

 

[David_2010]

There have certainly been people in the tradition who are said to have worked wonders. With the exception of raising the dead, exploits such as producing food, curing ailments, exorcism, or other such marvels have been ascribed not only to some of the prophets in the Tanakh, but also to some of the Rabbis of the Talmud, and very occasionally to other rabbis in the ages since. However, aside from the prophets, who did what they did because God directly invested them with the authority and power to do so, it is generally believed that only through great personal saintliness, endless hours of learning Torah, and long, long study of the Kabbalah can one attain such gifts from God.

And in any case, they may make one special, but not superhuman or divine.

Also, there is nothing in the tradition that says that at least some of those kinds of wonders may not be replicable with magic, in ways not necessarily having anything whatsoever to do with God or saintliness or Torah.

Thanks for explaining it, I remembered reading (in various places, like Rabbi Gershon Winkler's book on Magic in Judaism (through Google Books, I've yet to buy a copy yet), and some of Howard Schwartz's work) that there have been various Sages and Sorcerers who've developed certain abilities and powers.

Oh no no no. Don't even go there. There is no similarity.

I thought so .

 

[Poisonshady313]

Bill Maher can be a funny guy,

No, he can't. This has nothing to do with his views on either politics or religion. I've seen his standup.. I've seen his shows. He's not funny.

That's my opinion, and I stick by it.

 

[Zardoz]

I know that in the Judaism, you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. What is your opinion on this?

Judaism doesn't use the phrase 'Jesus Christ', FYI.

All stories about Yeshua's death... or birth for that matter... are unimportant to Jews.

Notice my religion title. Even though Yeshua is quite important to me, these issues are not. It's not the man, but his message, which is of importance.

 

[Yona]

I know that in the Judaism, you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. What is your opinion on this?

That it's a myth, it never happened and that the man in question was a heretic.

 

[Whoitbe]

Judaism doesn't use the phrase 'Jesus Christ', FYI.

All stories about Yeshua's death... or birth for that matter... are unimportant to Jews.

Notice my religion title. Even though Yeshua is quite important to me, these issues are not. It's not the man, but his message, which is of importance.

Whoa whoa whoa. Judaism totally believes in ressurection of the dead. Ever read that one story in the Gemara where rabbi Eliezer Ben Hyrkunos ressurected a dead roman soldier? I think it's in gittin. As for the rambams 13 principles of faith, one of the beliefs is ressurection of the dead. I think he derived it from yehezkel? I forget all the places ressurection of the dead is involved. As for yushka... That's a different story. He probably did ressurect from the dead. But all the taanaim could ressurect the dead as well. So, it's really nothing unique. As far as yushka is concerned, he's a Pharisee that went off the rails.

But, Z, you ever learn Gemara? I know about the allegedic moschiach teachings are, the message. Effectively when you boil it down to the solid facts - Jesus' message was a psuedo-phariseeic(spl?) offshoot movement which rejected machmir positions on how they(the Pharisee leaders) were poskining halakha and a rejection if saudacee Judaism completely. Which is in a way what conservative and some branches of modern orthodox have become today. I.e. Not washing before bread and objection to being shomer shabbos on all the melachos. No doubt yushka was a Pharisee. *But effectively he fell under the category of a מסית and a חוטא ומתטיא את הרבים.

One who causes other to sin because he's sinning(he did so by his rejection of the sages decree) and a sage or someone of Torah importance who causes others to sin - which is punishable by death in a public place during a festive day (his death was presumably on pesach since Easter lines up with pesach sometimes, just an intersting FYI). The fact that he was a Pharisee to an extent can be verified in that the teachings which he taught, are in fact intrinsic Jewish beliefs and recorded in Talmud. You know the history of the oral Torah, yeah? Even in matthew it talks about tefillin and the specifications in making them not too wide, etc.

The problem is, the entire movement he started was the equivelant of something a long the lines of what masorti Judaism is today. I.e. Discarding certain halakhas which are viewed as useless. Just curious are you aware of the necessity to toivel and maintain purity in the times of the beis hamikdosh? Particularly when it comes to impurities on the hands? Yodiim is a perfect example of a rabbinic decree which was attempted to be overturned and convince others to not do so as well. Ever wonder why so many Jews survived the plague and we got blamed? Al nitilas yodiim might be a place to start. Rabbinic decrees extrapulated from oral tradition were definitely not unecessarily machmir. Tell me, as a messianic Jew - whether you see the Talmud as valid and binding or not, do you celebrate Purim or channukah or ever wear a kippa?

Btw, not all of this is directed at you Z. Only the latter.*

 

[Caladan]

I know that in the Judaism, you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ. What is your opinion on this?

In Jewish tradition, Jesus of Nazareth is considered a false messiah, formally and officially, the New Testament is not part of the Jewish library in anyway, therefore the miracles of the New Testament are rejected by Jews.

 

[Zardoz]

.... As for yushka... That's a different story. He probably did ressurect from the dead. But all the taanaim could ressurect the dead as well. So, it's really nothing unique...

That's what I meant, not resurrection in general, which as you point out is one of the 13 principles of faith. Whether he resurrected or not proves nothing.

The problem is, the entire movement he started was the equivelant of something a long the lines of what masorti Judaism is today. I.e. Discarding certain halakhas which are viewed as useless.

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Does that sound like Yeshua advocated discarding halakhas? Was not the proper Kevanah what he was primarily concerned with?

Tell me, as a messianic Jew - whether you see the Talmud as valid and binding or not, do you celebrate Purim or channukah or ever wear a kippa?

There are many types of Messianic Jew, none of these are invalid because of this for me. I also wear a tallit, and a tallit katan under my shirt as well as a kippa. I never post here on shabbat as I'm also shomer shabbat.

 

[Whoitbe]

Interesting. Do you wear the rabbinic style tzitzit or the karaite ones? I'm not 100% sure that Jesus rejected halakha. In fact, a lot of them he out right kept. What he rejected was rabbinic halachas. I'm understanding that you adhere to תורה באל פי to the moderate extent, but cut out rabbinic poskinint. Which I have seen demonstrated within small, pre-romanized, post second temple messianic renewal movements. But, none the less, your response somewhat evades a hinted at new testament scriptural incident which I made earlier. Washing before bread. If my memory serves me rigt, an incident occured in Matthew where his disciples were instructed not to wash before bread on grounds that it is an "unecessary rabbinic ruling". Am I correct?

Have you familiarized yourself with these terms at all?

חוטא ומתטיא את הרבים

And

מסית

?

You see what I'm implying? Rejection of rabbinic decree and encouraging others to do so is punishable of death. No doubt he rejected rabbinic decree.

 

[Whoitbe]

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."*

Do you think anyone can fulfill all the law? Tell me, how can someone of alleged David lineage(which Jesus was NOT, and this is cold fact which you cannot argue against) could fulfill the laws which were assigned to the kohanim? So, you think he fulfilled them? Tell me, are G-d's laws eternal? Will there come a day when we don't have to do everything G-d said for us to do?

 

[Zardoz]

Interesting. Do you wear the rabbinic style tzitzit or the karaite ones?

Not sure how Karaites wear them, do they have tekhelet? I know a lot of people think they now have the right dye from the right muscle or whatever, but I've only worn mine white.

I'm not 100% sure that Jesus rejected halakha. In fact, a lot of them he out right kept. What he rejected was rabbinic halachas.

See, that's just the thing... the sources recording what Yeshua actually taught are all gentile, and not only that but gentile with an agenda. Are the accounts truthful and accurate? Perhaps not! All I ever really identify with is the so-called 'Sermon on the Mount'. I've heard some scholars claim that this is most probably genuine records of his teachings, from those who were actually there, and not composed long after the fact as the so-called 'gospels' are. To me, the whole of Yeshua's teachings boil down to - 'where is your heart? Do the Mitzvot change your heart, or are they just done to comply?' See? No debate about what Rabbinic decisions to accept or reject, it's not about that... as I said, it's all about Kevanah!

I may have a different Minhag than many Jews around me, but this is because I am a Sephardic Jew, and not because I'm a Messinaic Jew!Nothing I do or not do would be any different if I was not a Messianic Jew, aside from my expectations of the coming Messiah.

Everyone knows, before Messiah ben David, comes Messiah ben Yosef.
What kind of Messiah are you expecting? What Age are we in right now?
I know that we are in the Age of Messiah ben Yosef, and that Messiah ben Yosef has already come and gone. I await only Messiah ben David, who will fulfill the prophecies still to be realized, and usher in an age of peace, an Age of Messiah ben David.

... Tell me, are G-d's laws eternal? Will there come a day when we don't have to do everything G-d said for us to do?

The passage I quote shows that G-d's laws are eternal. Interpretations we make may change, but G-d does not change, as he told us.

 

[Whoitbe]

Sorry for the delayed response. Ive been a bit busy with classes and the such. But, Shavua Tov, Zardoz. You presume Jesus was moschiach Ben Yosef when the new testament seeks to establish Davidic lineage by means of immaculate conception? Am I understanding this correctly? Moschiach Ben Yosef is the moschiach with lineage from Yosef(or moschiach Ben Efraim, I think the term extends to). Where do you find a definitive answer to these pertinent questions? A. Jesus having a biological father (which as you know is a precursor to deciding tribal inheritance) and B. That his father(Yosef) is of lineage of Yosef? Aren't there a plethora of references that he is of Davidic lineage?

To say he is moshiach ben Yosef is even less backed up then him being of davidic lineage. The term moschiach Ben Yosef implies the lineage of the Yosef who was in egypt - this does NOT imply the son of someone named Yosef who is of davidic lineage. It has a specific implication of messianic dynasty for the line of Yosef. Maybe you should answer me this, why is it that Jesus never fulfilled the role of moschiach Ben Yosef?

 

[Whoitbe]

But yeah, karaite do wear tzitzit - only they're different. Do a google on them, they're a trip lol.

Also, you do realize that Jesus' best sellers were basically, no - literally, teachings of hillel, right? He who is with out sin shall cast the first stone, turn the other cheek, etc, etc, etc... Those are all more or less already pre-existing Jewish teachings, you do know this, right? I really must ask, have you ever learned Talmud?

 

[Zardoz]

...Maybe you should answer me this, why is it that Jesus never fulfilled the role of moschiach Ben Yosef?

This will sound radical, I know. Heretical, even. However, I have never really put too much emphasis on the two messianic figures being literal blood descendants of their namesakes. Yes, it would be nice, but after all this time, how can anyone ever know for sure they are descended from Yosef? Impossible! Messiah ben David, there's some chance there, and will probably be more of an issue for most Jews when he arrives.

Rather, I see them as spiritual descendants of their predecessors.

Now, Yeshua really strikes me as following in Yosef's path in many ways. Maybe it's not so obvious in regard to his relationship to Jews, as to the majority of Jews, at this time he is an unfamiliar and foreign entity just as Zaphnath-paaneah, the Viceroy of Egypt, was to the sons of Israel. No, it's how the two stories mesh so well in relation to the Goyim. I take it you know what happened to the body of Yosef? And you know why Yosef is forever linked with the idols? The fact that Edom made an idol out of Yeshua absolutely fits with this, don't you think? The reality of the age we are in can only be Messiah ben Yosef, and there is no other person who can fit this role, who arrives on the stage of history and changes the world.

Also, you do realize that Jesus' best sellers were basically, no - literally, teachings of hillel, right? He who is with out sin shall cast the first stone, turn the other cheek, etc, etc, etc... Those are all more or less already pre-existing Jewish teachings, you do know this, right? I really must ask, have you ever learned Talmud?

He's spread them to the corners of the earth, so what does it matter? I'm sure Hillel got them from someone too. Yes, I have learned some Talmud, but I've never been to yeshiva, I'm self-taught. Well, not entirely, we got a good grounding in Chumash with the Rashi from our Rebbi.

 

[Tarheeler]

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