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Jesus Body

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions DIR' started by Unes, Dec 24, 2006.

  1. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    In Colossians we read:

    The Supremacy of Christ
    1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn 25. over all creation,26
    (Foot note 25: In Col1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus’ rank as over and above creation (cf. 1:16 and the “for” clause referring to Jesus as Creator))

    1:16 for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him—all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers—all things were created through him and for him.

    1:17 He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him.

    I saw these verses in Colossians were simplified as follows:

    Colossians 1:15 for countless billions of years, even before the physical universe was created, Jesus lived as a spirit person in heaven and enjoyed the relationship with his father, the Grand Creator.

    According to Gospels Jesus was born and was raised about 2000 years ago. Jesus body was formed and was developed after his birth from mother Mary. Jesus body was so holy that he was resurrected after his crucifixion and he was ascended to heaven.

    Now the question arises:


    Since before the Gospels’ story of Jesus, Jesus existed as a spirit, and after the Gospels’ story of Jesus, Jesus got a physical body, then can we conclude Jesus structure changed?

    Who was Jesus mother when he existed before his birth from mother Mary?

    Did God deceive us in the Genesis story when he said “1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”!?

    When God asked us to observe the First Commandment, did he forget about Jesus!?

    May God Bless us All,
    Unes
     
  2. PureX

    PureX Well-Known Member

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    I think you're taking the text too literally. It was not "Jesus" that had always existed, but Christ. Christ is an ideal - it's the ideal of God's nature being expressed in human form. This ideal existed from the beginning, but according to Christianity, did not happen until Jesus was physically born. Jesus was this Christ: God's love and forgiveness (God's nature) expressed in human form. We were also meant to be expressions of God in human form, but according to the religious tradition, we fell away from that anointed position (as in the story of Eden). Jesus came to show us and to offer us a way of being restored to that position, again.
     
  3. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    PureX, first of all the religious group should make up their mind; either the scriptures are word of God which has to be interpreted literally, or they are some fuzzy documents which would be interpreted by Man according to Man’s own ideologies! You can not use the text literally in some occasions and interpret it differently as you please! That would be very deceptive way to run the business of the Truth. After all you wish to defend and to expand the Truth. What kind of Truth that would be if it is based on such arbitrary presentation!?

    Here, you are claiming that "Jesus" and Christ are two different entities which they join together! This is a blasphemous claim! Jesus always has been advertised as "Jesus Christ”. And these entities always have been interchangeable.

    Still, even with your interpretation, you can not deny after Jesus entered in heaven the nature of Christ in heaven was changed! The Christ, the creator who existed above the creation, did not have a physical body before, and then he acquired Jesus body for his physical presence.

    May God Bless us All,
    Unes
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Absolutely. He was a personage of spirit during His pre-mortal existence. He then became a mortal being, and upon being resurrected became an glorified celestial being who will never again be subject to death.

    His Heavenly Mother, His Heavenly Father's eternal companion. Who ever heard of a father without a mother?

    No, in the beginning God did create the heavens and the earth. Obviously I missed your point. Sorry.

    No, we are to have no other gods before Him. He is not only Jesus' Father, He is -- as Jesus explicitely stated -- also His God.
     
  5. PureX

    PureX Well-Known Member

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    God didn't write the scriptures. So we are free to read them as we would read any other human-written text. That is, we would interpret them as they were intended by the authors to be interpreted, as best we could discern this. And the authors of most biblical texts were big on using these texts as inspiration for contemplation, prayer, discussion, and debate. The point of most scripture is not to tell us what to think, and what to believe, but to inspire us to open our minds and hearts to the great mystery that "God" is.

    The truth is not in the scriptures. The truth is in God, and the scriptures are not God. So I see no need to venerate or worship them as if they were sacred and sacrosanct. And I see no reason to presume that they are absolutely and literally true. They were intended to point us in the direction of truth. Nothing more.
     
  6. athanasius

    athanasius Well-Known Member

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    Hello my good friend. I didn't know that Mormons taught that there were two Gods. Maybe I misunderstood. I beleive of coarse that Jesus existed before his incarnation but I do not believe that he had a Mother Goddess in heaven married to God the father? I would say his Mother is human and his Father is divine. I might have misunderstood your explanation. We Catholics believe Mary is the mother of Jesus but we also beleive that Jesus being God created his own mother(Mary) who is just a glorified sinless human being.
     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    We believe that the Father and the Son are physically distinct from one another and not both part of a single substance. But the Book of Mormon, like the Bible, teaches that they are "one God." We just disagree with you as to the way in which they are one.

    We believe that Jesus is the spirit Son of divine parents (plural) and was the mortal/immortal Son of a divine Father and a human mother.

    Since we don't believe that the Father and the Son are one and the same, we don't believe that God (the Father) created His own mother. We believe that He created the mother of His Son, Jesus Christ. While we hold Mary in high regard, we don't believe she was sinless. We believe that Jesus Christ was unique in that regard.
     
  8. SB Habakuk

    SB Habakuk Active Member

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    The Body (garment ) of Jesus is that of his Father _ for he and his Father is One- But this garment is not his -garment of the infinite- this garment is terrible- as it was recorded -when he was adorned- he shook the foundation of the earth- the very voices of anels was heard worldwide
     
  9. twirlybirdy

    twirlybirdy Member

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    In my religion, Lutheran, We believe in the Trinity, 3 in 1 concept.
     
  10. SB Habakuk

    SB Habakuk Active Member

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    Christ existed in the true infinite- robed in true glory
    He stripped himself of this garment and descended
    He was given a garment by the one termed as Father
    Again I must reiterate that christ did not receive a body (garment) fro m those in authority- every human being who comes into this system of things receives such- Christ by stealth appeared among the rulers as the angel Gabriel descending- they did not give him a garment-

    Mary was not "defiled" in any sexual way- Christ was made present through the power of a word- this was utterred- Christ came forth as its fulfillment
    C hrist birth was immaculate in every way- the result is a being blessed with a word-body-
     
  11. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    PureX, I do accept this view whole heartily, but that is not how the Holy Bible is practiced! However, if the Christians accept the fallibility of the Holy Bible then of course they would get liberated! And that is not what the Christian Church would condone!

    It is easy to make a peculiar theological claim about Christ, similar to the verse Colossians 1:15, but as you see such a claim does create damning contradictions. The posts of the other Christian members are a reflection of such deeply rooted contradictions.

    May God Bless us All,
    Unes
     
  12. SB Habakuk

    SB Habakuk Active Member

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    Again - truth is of "god" but it can only be relayed to humanity through an image-This image is often subjective- but those who seek after it will Find- Know this.
    Christ cannot be divided- he was destroyed and he attained light
     
  13. PureX

    PureX Well-Known Member

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    I'm not personally bothered by such contradictions. I don't believe we humans can contemplate truth without the experience of dichotomy. It's when such contradiction becomes an excuse for willful dishonesty, and for antisocial behavior that I find it unacceptable. Not that there's much I can do about this.
     
  14. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    How amusing these theologies can get!?

    Our existing knowledge indicates that our capability of reasoning is the jewel of the known Universe. Our established Religions have recognized this observation correctly and they have celebrated Man above all the other things. From this simple observation we can conclude; limiting our thoughts goes against the Creator’s intention. We have been empowered to think, so any theology which denies this fact is void.

    Now using this magnificent gift, how did we prove that idol worshipping was absurd? We have to use the same critical thinking for all aspects of our belief systems. Now applying the same free analyses about the Image of Jesus Christ which the Christians are promoting we can easily conclude that Image is flawed in many aspects. Here is one aspect of it:

    How can anybody in his right mind accept an evolving deity to be the Creator of this Universe? As I pointed out according to Christianity before the Jesus story in the Gospels, Christ existed as a spirit, and after the Jesus story that spirit transformed into a physical body. That transformation rejects that Christ to be: “... being of the same substance with the Father, ..." . A changing deity is an imperfect deity.

    Just the notion of the “Trinity”, or three in one Deity is fundamentally flawed to begin with. It is absurd of us to dissect the nature of the Creator. We never can have any knowledge of the Domain of God who is beyond this Universe of the substances. The Christian church adopted the Trinity theology to please Emperor Constantinople, since he was comfortable with the structure of the Roman pagan religion. And I thought we had out grown the pagan religions!

    When someone sincerely is searching for the Truth, first of all he/she needs to overcome his/her own personal egos and submit to the most coherent logic which the human mind can form. After all these theologies are made to satisfy the human’s quest for his/her own existence.

    May God Bless us All,
    Unes
     
  15. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Some people are easily amused. (*Makes mental note to remember in the future that Unes is one of them*)
    Speaking of which, how can there be a Father without a Mother?
     
  16. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Katzpur, this is a reasonable conclusion. Here we end up concluding that even a spirit is getting born and having a mother. And if we continue on this path then it is reasonable to worship “Heavenly Mother”. Then instead of having the Trinity we would have “Four Deity” and if we add mother Mary to this mixed we would have “Five Deity”.

    Actually I witnessed a debate between a Catholic Priest and a protestant Priest. The Catholic priest was claiming Mother Mary’s virginity was resumed after Jesus Birth. And mother Mary remained a virgin for the rest of her life. The Catholic priest was forced to conclude that Mother Mary herself has to be born to a virgin birth to be considered without sin. We see there is no limit in expanding these kinds of reasoning. These are all plausible conclusions which arise from the original concept which was made based on declaring Jesus was God, or son of God. And that was exactly the point when I used the “Humorous” adjective to show the flawed in the Christian theology. We need to examine very carefully base on what evidences the bishops in Nicaea council could declare Jesus as God? All Jesus miracles were introduced long after Jesus crucifixions. With a careful examination of those stories we can prove these stories were made by some evangelists in order to boast Jesus image and expand their own evangelical movements. How could we accept such a Universe Shaking Claim to be based on such stories?

    When someone makes a wrong assumption we see how our version of Truth suffers and we end up with some very confusing and weird theologies. We can not allow the serious business of our spiritual beliefs to be mixed with the fairytale of Santa Clause and similar myths. In this environment which everything is an instrument of entertainment we see how the Christian theology is a willing participant for the entertainment and a tool for the political parties. It seems the Christian Church is more interested to maintain its power than yielding to the scientific facts and human’s enlightenment. This hardly qualifies the Church as the institution for the spiritual growth. Saying all that negative things still we should acknowledge the invaluable fellowship services which the Church provides for its members. The Church fellowship services are the best but its theology is wasted.

    May God Bless us All,
    Unes
     
  17. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    (1)Who said spirits are "born"? Birth is a physical thing. It is the way a physical body enters mortality. (2)It is entirely possible to believe in the existence of a female counterpart to God without worshipping her. I know because I do. (3) I don't believe in the Trinity nor do I worship Mary, so from where I sit, we're back to three: A Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost, each of whom is physically distinct from the others, but all of whom are divine and who are "one" in mind and heart, will and purpose.
     
  18. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    Genesis 32:24 So Jacob was left alone. Then a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 32:25 When the man saw that he could not defeat Jacob, he struck the socket of his hip, so the socket of Jacob's hip was dislocated while he wrestled with him. 32:26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for the dawn is breaking." "I will not let you go," Jacob replied "unless you bless me." 32:27 The man asked him, "What is your name?" He answered, "Jacob." 32:28 "No longer will your name be Jacob," the man told him, "but Israel, because you have fought with God and with men and have prevailed."

    I understand Jacob was a very strong man, but was this the same God who created this Universe!?

    Samuel 7:4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 7:5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 7:6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.

    The way that God, the Father, complains about his living accommodation then one would wonder, why God did not build a temple for himself.

    Of course when God, the Father, is portrayed with these kinds of characteristics, then one would expect that his son to be portrayed that way in the Holy Bible.

    May God Bless us All,
    Unes
     
  19. Unes

    Unes Active Member
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    “After Jesus crucifixion, many people in the Jewish community in Palestine thought John the Baptist was the Messiah. They reasoned since Jesus had gone to John to be baptized, then John the Baptist must have higher status than Jesus.”

    Father Jerome Murphy O’Conner,
    Ecole Bibligue Jerusalem

    From this statement we can conclude, since there is no miracle associated to John the Baptist, so right after Jesus Crucifixion there must had been no miracles associated to Jesus either.

    May God Bless us All,
    Unes
     
  20. angellous_evangellous

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    You've left out John Chapter 1.
     
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