Jesus believers, answer this question please.

[dantech]

The Tanakh prophecies are pretty clear on how things will pan out when the Messiah reigns. It speaks of total peace, even in the animal kingdom (Isaiah 2:4, 11:6-8), worldwide knowledge of G-D (Isaiah 11:9, Jeremiah 31:34), the Temple standing in Jerusalem forever(Ezekiel 37:27-28, Ezekiel 40-48), resurrection of the dead (Daniel 12:2, Isaiah 26:19), and the return of the descendants of Israel to Israel (Jeremiah 23:7-8, Isaiah 27:13).

We also find a few verses describing a righteous judge who will fear God (Isaiah 11:1-4), and I doubt God fears himself so this doesn't really work with the Trinity concept.


A few points clearly stand out. First, not only were these prophecies not accomplished in Jesus' life, but the exact opposite occurred during and after his life.
1)The Temple was destroyed.
2)The Jews were scattered and many were murdered
3)The birth of many religions occurred after his life, preaching anything but a universal knowledge of God.

Second, even if you are one of those who suggests that the prophecies are slowly coming to fruition as a result of Jesus' life, you would still be able to show somewhat of an upward slope on said prophecies. However, we see the complete complete opposite: destruction of the temple, development of countless new religions, further scattering of the children of Israel. Also, I have failed to find anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures anything about the Messiah (which he was never called, by the way) coming back x thousand years later to complete his job.

Third, I have also failed to find mention anywhere that the arrival of the messiah would warrant a new covenant that would result the previous one in being annulled.

I guess the question is:
How can you, knowing all these facts and scriptures, honestly believe that Jesus is/was indeed our sent savior?

 

[savagewind]

We also find a few verses describing a righteous judge who will fear God (Isaiah 11:1-4), and I doubt God fears himself so this doesn't really work with the Trinity concept.

Good point about the trinity

I can see Isaiah 11:1-4 fulfilled in Yeshua, the son of Mary. Except for the last part. World has not witnessed the death of the wicked ones. Maybe it means The Wicked one, which I have observed the death of that one in my life. It might mean the wicked ones are not able to take away the integrity of the good ones. I see a lot of good being done. It is my opinion that much of it can be attributed to Yeshua who I believe in. I think much bad is caused by the false christs. Some of the false christs believe they are for Jesus Christ, but they really are not, are they?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I believe in Jesus cause I digged his message. Whether or not he was the Son of God, whether or not his words were kept as clean as they were supposed to be IDK. But, he said some Good stuff to live by...and being raised with that particular idea...I stick to that.

 

[dantech]

I believe in Jesus cause I digged his message. Whether or not he was the Son of God, whether or not his words were kept as clean as they were supposed to be IDK. But, he said some Good stuff to live by...and being raised with that particular idea...I stick to that.

There's a difference in believing in what someone has accomplished during his life time and respecting him for it, and believing that he is a handpicked savior sent by God - which is what I don't understand.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

There's a difference in believing in what someone has accomplished during his life time and respecting him for it, and believing that he is a handpicked savior sent by God - which is what I don't understand.

Shrug?

Well much of what we know about Jesus comes from the work of the Gospels. What we know about Christianity comes from the writings of Paul.

There is one Verse were Peter calls Jesus the Christ (and Jesus forbids them from revealing it to anyone...though I guess they did?), so it would seem that his disciples believe that he was. And since everything in the bible is Gods word, (in the eyes of literalists), then it must be true.

Also there's the prophecies recited again in the NT which people feel support this.

 

[dantech]

Shrug?

Well much of what we know about Jesus comes from the work of the Gospels. What we know about Christianity comes from the writings of Paul.

There is one Verse were Peter calls Jesus the Christ (and Jesus forbids them from revealing it to anyone...though I guess they did?), so it would seem that his disciples believe that he was. And since everything in the bible is Gods word, (in the eyes of literalists), then it must be true.

Also there's the prophecies recited again in the NT which people feel support this.

But the problem is that the NT believers, usually believe in what they call the OT as well. It's fine and dandy to believe that the NT is the word of God, but Jesus himself often spoke of the Tanakh as the truth! Only, when the NT, or his disciples contradict it, then something doesn't add up.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

But the problem is that the NT believers, usually believe in what they call the OT as well. It's fine and dandy to believe that the NT is the word of God, but Jesus himself often spoke of the Tanakh as the truth! Only, when the NT, or his disciples contradict it, then something doesn't add up.

Well the big contradiction between Jews and Christiabs comes from whether Jesus is the Son of God.though not all Christians believe this.

 

[dantech]

Well the big contradiction between Jews and Christiabs comes from whether Jesus is the Son of God.though not all Christians believe this.

That's not it, since as you said, not even all Christians believe in that. The major difference is belief in him being the Messiah.
If you look at my OP, you will see that to be the Messiah, as Christians claim he was, Jesus should have accomplished a few prophecies. Not only was he not even close, but the world is further away from these prophecies than ever before.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

That's not it, since as you said, not even all Christians believe in that. The major difference is belief in him being the Messiah.
If you look at my OP, you will see that to be the Messiah, as Christians claim he was, Jesus should have accomplished a few prophecies. Not only was he not even close, but the world is further away from these prophecies than ever before.

I like to think that Social Media (Vis-a-vis the internet) is doing a good job at uniting everyone lol.

But I can see what you mean.

 

[InChrist]

Hello dantech, As someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the Savior and Messiah I thought I'd attempt to answer some of your questions the best I can.

The Tanakh prophecies are pretty clear on how things will pan out when the Messiah reigns. It speaks of total peace, even in the animal kingdom (Isaiah 2:4, 11:6-8), worldwide knowledge of G-D (Isaiah 11:9, Jeremiah 31:34), the Temple standing in Jerusalem forever(Ezekiel 37:27-28, Ezekiel 40-48), resurrection of the dead (Daniel 12:2, Isaiah 26:19), and the return of the descendants of Israel to Israel (Jeremiah 23:7-8, Isaiah 27:13).

I see the above scriptures as things which will take place in the future when Messiah reigns from Jerusalem, very soon, and some of which are in the process of occurring now. I think it is an amazing fact and fulfillment of prophecy that Israel is a nation again after over 1900 years of the Jewish people being dispersed without their homeland. This has not occurred with any other people group in the history of the world. I see this a something which God has brought about in these last days in fulfillment of His word in the scriptures. Just as Israel in a nation again as prophesied, I believe all the other prophecies will take place. Right now there is great effort, interest, and plans for the building of the temple in Jerusalem. I believe it is just a matter of God's timing.

Read more: Rebuilding Israel's Temple Mount - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

The Temple Institute: The Holy Temple in Jerusalem: Yesterday Tomorrow Today

We also find a few verses describing a righteous judge who will fear God (Isaiah 11:1-4), and I doubt God fears himself so this doesn't really work with the Trinity concept.

I don't see this verse or idea that the righteous judge will fear God as negating the Trinity or Jesus being God... because Jesus was also fully human and came to be the perfect representative for mankind, where as Adam failed and fell into sin. As the perfect human Jesus demonstrated all the correct qualities humans were meant to, including respect or fear toward God.

A few points clearly stand out. First, not only were these prophecies not accomplished in Jesus' life, but the exact opposite occurred during and after his life.
1)The Temple was destroyed.
2)The Jews were scattered and many were murdered
3)The birth of many religions occurred after his life, preaching anything but a universal knowledge of God.

I believe these things occurred (as prophesied) because rather than accepting their Messiah the religious leadership of the Jews ( but not all Jews) rejected their Messiah.

Second, even if you are one of those who suggests that the prophecies are slowly coming to fruition as a result of Jesus' life, you would still be able to show somewhat of an upward slope on said prophecies. However, we see the complete complete opposite: destruction of the temple, development of countless new religions, further scattering of the children of Israel

I actually see the upward slope with the regathering of the Jews in process and the establishment of the nation of Israel as prophesied (Isaiah 11:11; 66:8).

That's all I have time for at the moment. I'll have to get back to the rest below when I get the opportunity.

Also, I have failed to find anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures anything about the Messiah (which he was never called, by the way) coming back x thousand years later to complete his job.

Third, I have also failed to find mention anywhere that the arrival of the messiah would warrant a new covenant that would result the previous one in being annulled.

I guess the question is:
How can you, knowing all these facts and scriptures, honestly believe that Jesus is/was indeed our sent savior?

[/quote]

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How can you, knowing all these facts and scriptures, honestly believe that Jesus is/was indeed our sent savior?

Good grief ...

 

[dantech]

Good grief ...

thank you for you ever so insightful post. Your contribution to the discussion is very appreciated.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Just how many "why don't Jews accept Jesus" threads do need before realizing that they serve little function beyond providing yet another platform for Christian apologetics? If it was as simple as smugly referencing a handful of quotes from the Tanakh Christianity would have never gotten off the ground in the first place.

 

[InChrist]

Also, I have failed to find anywhere in the Hebrew scriptures anything about the Messiah (which he was never called, by the way) coming back x thousand years later to complete his job.

I believe the prophet Zechariah chapter 12 indicates two reasons why the Messiah returns later: 1) to save Israel from the surrounding nations who attempt to destroy her and 2) because He was rejected nationally (not individually) by Israel the first time but this time all Israel will see He is the Messiah and mourn their historical rejection.

In Daniel 7:13 the term “Son of Man ‘ is used and then in Daniel 9:25 ”Messiah the Prince” are used.But I think the concept of Messiah is something which grew with understanding as God gave progressive revelation. References to an anointed one were first applied to the leaders and kings of Israel culminating in the anticipation of a final Messiah who would come through the Davidic line to restore the kingdom and rule from Jerusalem.

“ The connection of the term "Messiah" as applied to an anointed king appears especially strong, and was used in a prophetic sense of the coming Davidic ruler. Both Second Samuel and the Psalms refer to King David as the "anointed one" (mashiach) whose descendants will rule forever (2 Sam. 22:50-51 = Psa. 18:50-51). In addition, the concept of a universal messiah is seen in texts that give to the Davidic house dominion over foreign nations (2 Sam. 22:44-51 = Psa. 18:44-51; Psa. 2:7-9). In the prophetic writings the messianic concept has a special reference to God’s promised Davidic ruler who will restore Israel to the divine ideal (Isaiah 9:7; Jeremiah 23:5-6; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:25; Amos 9:11-12). Psalms 2 (vss. 2-6, 7-9) and 89 (vss. 3-4, 20-29) depict a divinely appointed king messiah (or “anointed”) who will destroy God’s Gentile opponents and as His representative will reign over the nations. The pre-exilic prophet Isaiah likewise predicts a future Davidic Messiah who will smite Israel’s enemies and rule in justice over the nations (Isa. 11:1-10). The post-exilic Chronicler also speaks of a Davidic ruler-restorer who will rebuild the Temple, to whom God would be Father without the need for correction, and who will serve as regent in God's kingdom (1 Chronicles 17:11-14).”

Excerpt from:
The Concept of the Messiah in the Old Testament
By Randall Price

[FONT=&quot]Resources by Dr. Randall Price[/FONT]

Third, I have also failed to find mention anywhere that the arrival of the messiah would warrant a new covenant that would result the previous one in being annulled.

[FONT=&quot]“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—Jeremiah 31:31[/FONT][FONT=&quot]


[/FONT]If Jesus was the Messiah as He claimed, He said He came to fulfill the Law/covenant.

I guess the question is:
How can you, knowing all these facts and scriptures, honestly believe that Jesus is/was indeed our sent savior?

[/quote]

You may see things differently and not agree with my perspective, but I honestly believe Jesus is the Savior.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well, dantech, this seems to be working quite well.

 

[InChrist]

Well, dantech, this seems to be working quite well.

Oh well, isn't this what this forum is for ... to discuss these kinds of topics?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Oh well, isn't this what this forum is for ... to discuss these kinds of topics?

Apparently. I found your response to be both respectful and appropriate. And now let's hope that dantech, having invited you and others to the dance, fulfills his responsibility.

 

[Freelance_Policeman]

Apparently. I found your response to be both respectful and appropriate. And now let's hope that dantech, having invited you and others to the dance, fulfills his responsibility.

Fortunately, I can refute apologetics, something you are apparently unable to do. Observe:

I believe the prophet Zechariah chapter 12 indicates two reasons why the Messiah returns later: 1) to save Israel from the surrounding nations who attempt to destroy her and 2) because He was rejected nationally (not individually) by Israel the first time but this time all Israel will see He is the Messiah and mourn their historical rejection.

If Zechariah was prophesying about Jesus, then Judas was an agent of God. Zechariah is the shepherd of "the flock," and kills three evil shhepherders who try to steal the sheep. However, the sheep grow to hate him, and he likewise. So, he quits and requests payment. He is paid thirty pieces of silver, and is told by Hashem to throw it to the potter.

Does this seem familiar? Matthew thinks so. Chapter 27, verse 9.

There you have it. Either Zechariah or Matthew is wrong—unless Jesus was an evil shepherd.

In Daniel 7:13 the term “Son of Man ‘ is used and then in Daniel 9:25 ”Messiah the Prince” are used.But I think the concept of Messiah is something which grew with understanding as God gave progressive revelation. References to an anointed one were first applied to the leaders and kings of Israel culminating in the anticipation of a final Messiah who would come through the Davidic line to restore the kingdom and rule from Jerusalem.

Or it can mean both.

“ The connection of the term "Messiah" as applied to an anointed king appears especially strong, and was used in a prophetic sense of the coming Davidic ruler. Both Second Samuel and the Psalms refer to King David as the "anointed one" (mashiach) whose descendants will rule forever (2 Sam. 22:50-51 = Psa. 18:50-51). In addition, the concept of a universal messiah is seen in texts that give to the Davidic house dominion over foreign nations (2 Sam. 22:44-51 = Psa. 18:44-51; Psa. 2:7-9). In the prophetic writings the messianic concept has a special reference to God’s promised Davidic ruler who will restore Israel to the divine ideal (Isaiah 9:7; Jeremiah 23:5-6; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:25; Amos 9:11-12). Psalms 2 (vss. 2-6, 7-9) and 89 (vss. 3-4, 20-29) depict a divinely appointed king messiah (or “anointed”) who will destroy God’s Gentile opponents and as His representative will reign over the nations. The pre-exilic prophet Isaiah likewise predicts a future Davidic Messiah who will smite Israel’s enemies and rule in justice over the nations (Isa. 11:1-10). The post-exilic Chronicler also speaks of a Davidic ruler-restorer who will rebuild the Temple, to whom God would be Father without the need for correction, and who will serve as regent in God's kingdom (1 Chronicles 17:11-14).”

Given that Jesus has done none of these things, I think you just weakened your own argument.

Excerpt from:
The Concept of the Messiah in the Old Testament
By Randall Price

[FONT=&quot]Resources by Dr. Randall Price[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—Jeremiah 31:31[/FONT][FONT=&quot]


[/FONT]If Jesus was the Messiah as He claimed, He said He came to fulfill the Law/covenant.

Why does the New Covenant have to replace the old? Does the Nazarite covenant replace the Mosaiac covenant? Does the Mosaiac covenant replace the Abrahamic covenant? Does the Abrahamic covenant replace the covenant with Noah?

You may see things differently and not agree with my perspective, but I honestly believe Jesus is the Savior.

Not to insult you or your religion, but Christianity is pretty clear that those of us who reject Jesus are doomed to Hell.

"I, I am Hashem, and besides me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:11

"You are my witnesses," declares Hashem,
"And my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he."
Isaiah 43:10.

"And it shall come to pass that everybody who calls upon the name of Hashem will be saved."
Joel 2:32

And if you believe that God and Jesus are the same—

"God is not man...or a son of man." Numbers 23.

"For I Hashem do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed."
Malachi 3:6

 

[nash8]

Not to insult you or your religion, but Christianity is pretty clear that those of us who reject Jesus are doomed to Hell.

"I, I am Hashem, and besides me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:11

"You are my witnesses," declares Hashem,
"And my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he."
Isaiah 43:10.

"And it shall come to pass that everybody who calls upon the name of Hashem will be saved."
Joel 2:32

And if you believe that God and Jesus are the same—

"God is not man...or a son of man." Numbers 23.

"For I Hashem do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed."
Malachi 3:6

I don't see how any of these quotes condemn anyone to hell. It could definitely be my ignorance of Jewish language, but other than that I don't see it.

Maybe the NT was a secret hellenist Christian plead to traditional Jews of the times to stop trying to fight Roman oppression, and instead focus on the more spiritual aspects of their religion? Just posturing, no real evidence to support this view.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Fortunately, I can refute apologetics, something you are apparently unable to do. Observe: ...

You will no doubt prove yourself to be masterful [if only in your own mind]. opcorn: