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jesus and prophecies .. strange! .. but true

He is definitely not prince of peace, this man would put you in hell fire if you don't believe him, what's peaceful about that? what's peaceful about putting the majority of the creation in hell?

You seem to misunderstand the peace that Jesus is referring to.

John 14:27: Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.


The peace that you are referencing is basically a cessation of hostilities or violence. The peace that Jesus speaks about is a peace of mind - freedom from condemnation and internal strife, and having a clear conscience before God and man.


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That's fine, he's a prophet.
fine, what prophecy did he make and came true?
it's all in the future, nothing happened as of yet.

If anyone who knows of a 'prophecy' that came true, then by all means, let's see it!
(and I mean SEE it)

Read Matthew 24. Lots of stuff has come to pass, be it the abomination of desolation and the destruction of the temple, to the arising of many false christs who have led people astray.
 

Xchristian

Active Member
Hi

here is a prophecy by Yehoshua/Jesus that came true in 70 AD...

(Luke 21:6 KJV) As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


hi


1- This was written AFTER 70 CE (no more AD, the world doesn't believe in those things anymore) So it's predicting something that already happened.

2- Sorry, but you really are telling me that what they 'beheld' wouldn't stand, yet we can see the western wall in Jerusalem, can't we? so he must have made a mistake, or they all had bad eye sight.
 

Xchristian

Active Member
Yehoshua/Jesus was speaking of the temple in Jerusalem

no, he was speaking of EVERYTHING their eyes could see ..

how about this:

the author was writing (as all scholars agree) during/right after the war, he thought the whole lot would go bunk down, so he made up that prophecy.

Now things didn't go according to plan .. oops .. pretty much like Harold Camping stuff..

so what happens? John copies it, and changes it to: (they knew he was talking about his body)
 

Xchristian

Active Member
For all our friends from JW:

This section covers some of the lesser known failed predictions and changed date doctrine of the Watchtower Society.
For the more important dates see the pages on 1914, 1925, 1975. Many of the following quotes are from the Watchtower Society's Studies in the Scriptures Series. Scanned copies of these books can be downloaded for free from jehovah.net.au/books.html.

"He said: "Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, 'I am he,' and, 'The due time has approached.' Do not go after them." Luke 21:8 At John 16:13 Jesus said he would provide his followers Holy Spirit to correctly understand what the future holds;
"However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming."
Moses warned against those that make predictions in the name of Jehovah that do not come true;
"And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak..." Deuteronomy 18:20-22
The Watchtower says that the standard by which to judge a false messenger is whether their messages "come true"?
"Jehovah is the Grand identifier of his true messengers. He identifies them by making the messages he delivers through them come true. Jehovah is also the Great Exposer of false messengers." Watchtower 1997 May 1 p.8
Ironic, considering the Watchtower specifically said the end would come in 1914 and then 1925. The following section contains over 20 other "messages" promoted by the Watchtower for decades that turned out not to be "true". What does this prove about them as messengers?

Whereas doctrine is subjective and un-provable, time prophecy leaves no room for error. On a number of occasions the Watchtower put a line in the sand when saying a specific event was going to happen on a specific date. When those dates passed without event those statements proved beyond argument to be false. When something predicted to happen does not occur there is irrefutable evidence that Jehovah did not direct the interpretation. In line with the Scriptures above, the following incorrect dates prove the Watchtower Society is not guided by Jehovah.

In 1876, Russell became interested in time prophecy, after reading a copy of Barbour's publication Herald of the Morning. The end had not come in 1874, as the Adventists had predicted. However, Barbour explained that Matthew 24:27 meant Jesus' invisible presence commenced in 1874, the rapture would be 1878, and the end of the world was to occur in 1914. (see Watch Tower, 1906 July 15 for a detailed account.)

In Russell's doctrinal chronology the most important dates were 1874 and 1914:
"The chapter in SCRIPTURE STUDIES, Vol. II, showing the parallels between the Jewish and Christian Dispensations, makes prominent four dates, viz., (1) October, 1874; (2) April, 1878; (3) October, 1881, and (4) October, 1914;" Watch Tower 1911 June 15 p.190

"The careful student will have observed that the period designated 'The Time of the End' is very appropriately named, since not only does the Gospel age close in it, but in it, also, all prophesies relating to the close of this age terminate, reaching their fulfillments. The same class of readers will have noticed, too, the special importance of the last 40 of these 115 years (1874-1914), called 'The End' or 'Harvest.'" Studies in the Scriptures Series III - Thy Kingdom Come p.121


russell-timetable.jpg


The above timeline shows Russell's concept that the Second Coming of Jesus was 1874, and the start of the 1000 year earthly reign was 1914, as it was to end in 2914 A.D.


russell-chronology.jpg


For Rutherford the important dates were:
"WE HAVE no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of 1874, 1914, 1918, and 1925." Watchtower 1922 May 15 p.147

rutherford-chronology.jpg


Other significant dates the Watchtower no longer refer to are;

  • 1799 A.D. - The beginning of the Last Days.
  • 539 A.D. - Thought to be the start of Catholic Papal rule and the start point of many prophetic interpretations.
Of these above dates only 1914 is still considered significant, and even then, mostly for different reasons than originally prescribed. Though part of Watchtower lore for 60 years, most current Jehovah's Witnesses are unaware of their significance and that each one failed to eventuate as predicted.

Each time the Watchtower has predicted an occurrence, it has not eventuated as foretold, a 100% failure rate. Does this inspire confidence in Watchtower interpretation? Jehovah's Witnesses promoted these falsehoods in the past, and continue to zealously advocate current doctrine as unfailing truths.

It is claimed that Jesus found a cleansed Slave Class dispensing truthful food in 1919. However, Rutherford continued to promote Russell's interpretation of the dates for the 1700's, 1800's and 1914 until the 1930's. Many of the date prophecies were re-explained between 1930 and 1932; the remainder were adjusted in 1943. Rutherford even dismissed the majority of his own 1900's predictions.

Chapter 10 of Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom is devoted to the subject "Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth". This discusses that truth is progressive, yet makes little reference to the failed dates. Relegated to a footnote on page 133 is the statement that;
"A clearer understanding of Biblical chronology was published in 1943, in the book "The Truth Shall Make You Free" and it was then refined the following year in the book "The Kingdom Is at Hand," as well as in later publications.
Scant mention is made of the incredible list of dates that had been abandoned. Nor does it clarify that it was not until 1943 that the beginning of Christ's presence was specifically changed from the year 1874 to 1914. This change was in The Truth Shall Make You Free, released in the time of Knorr and the first book to be printed that did not list the author's name. This was after the death of Rutherford and well after 1919 when Jesus inspection supposedly found a spiritually cleansed Organization.

One can imagine that over time most of the current doctrine describing events of the 1900's will eventually be seen to be of little relevance and relegated to the forgotten annals of Watchtower history. It is yet to be seen what will become of 1914; being the most significant doctrine it will be the most difficult to eradicate without overwhelming consequences.
 

Xchristian

Active Member
Conståntine;3193457 said:
The peace that you are referencing is basically a cessation of hostilities or violence. The peace that Jesus speaks about is a peace of mind -


I was always worried about the Sulfuric acid lake which my beloved lord prepared for me.

I really prefer hot water, .. since leaving the faith I have that wonderful peace of mind.

But it is not strange he mentions war?

Does that mean jesus was talking a person having a war with himself? .. suicide like?

yet stranger .. suicide rates don't show any evidence .. must study those sometime.
 
I was always worried about the Sulfuric acid lake which my beloved lord prepared for me.

If I recall correctly, he created that for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). If you feel that you have some lot in it, then you'd have willingly chosen to go there of your own volition. Not God's fault or problem, or anyone else's for that matter apart from your own. ;)


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But it is not strange he mentions war?

Does that mean jesus was talking a person having a war with himself? .. suicide like?

Please frame this into a lucid question ^
 

Xchristian

Active Member
Conståntine;3193581 said:
If you feel that you have some lot in it, then you'd have willingly chosen to go there of your own volition. Not God's fault or problem, or anyone else's for that matter apart from your own.


See you in church .. cheers
 

Xchristian

Active Member
Conståntine;3193581 said:
Please frame this into a lucid question ^


in terms of jesus talking about peace and war.

You said he was talking about peace of mind ..

I said fine, that's peace, how about war?

and I suggested if peace is peace of mind, then war is war of mind ..

for one to go bananas like them who talk tongues and stuff like that.
 

Xchristian

Active Member
while reading I hit this stone ... and it hurts :


Moses warned against those that make predictions in the name of Jehovah that do not come true;
"And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak..." Deuteronomy 18:20-22





copy/paste from here Failed date predictions of Jehovah's Witnesses




when he says:

When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak

Does that allow for our 'futuristic' friends conceptions? i.e. it didn't come true alright, no problem we can only wait ..

but does that mean we can't judge that person? ..

Nothing on earth wil be a failed prophecy if one has to wait for ever?!
 
in terms of jesus talking about peace and war.

You said he was talking about peace of mind ..

I said fine, that's peace, how about war?

and I suggested if peace is peace of mind, then war is war of mind ..


Now THAT is a good question. And concerning war:

II Corinthians 10:3: For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
II Corinthians 10:4: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
II Corinthians 10:5: Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;



You are absolutely correct in that the real war that we as saints face is that which takes place in the mind - the war between choosing good over evil.
 

Xchristian

Active Member
Conståntine;3193605 said:
Now THAT is a good question. And concerning war:

II Corinthians 10:3: For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
II Corinthians 10:4: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
II Corinthians 10:5: Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;



You are absolutely correct in that the real war that we as saints face is that which takes place in the mind - the war between choosing good over evil.


My friend, the bit you talked about before was jesus talking about peace and war.
The bit you quoted here is Paul talking about his idea of the end of the world.

Don't mix please.

When jesus talks about peace and war, is he talking about your version or everybody else's version?
 
My friend, the bit you talked about before was jesus talking about peace and war.
The bit you quoted here is Paul talking about his idea of the end of the world.

Don't mix please.

Paul was not talking about the end of anything with regard to the scriptures I sent you. Reread the scriptures carefully. And whether or not they were quoted by Jesus directly is irrelevant - all of the scriptures are inspired by God for the purpose of doctrine in any event.

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When jesus talks about peace and war, is he talking about your version or everybody else's version?

Kindly delineate everyone else's version of peace and war, including yours, and then I'll be able to answer your question. I wonder if I should hold my breath. ;)
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
while reading I hit this stone ... and it hurts :


Moses warned against those that make predictions in the name of Jehovah that do not come true;
"And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak..." Deuteronomy 18:20-22





copy/paste from here Failed date predictions of Jehovah's Witnesses




when he says:

When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak

Does that allow for our 'futuristic' friends conceptions? i.e. it didn't come true alright, no problem we can only wait ..

but does that mean we can't judge that person? ..

Nothing on earth wil be a failed prophecy if one has to wait for ever?!


should we apply this also to Jesus apostles who thought the end of the world would occur in the first century?
Acts 1:6 When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction;

im guessing that God does not mind that we think the end is sooner then it will be... he is more concerned whether we are fulfilling our duty as proclaimers of his kingdom

Also, the verses you point out about false prophets do not apply for the reason that the WT have not created any prophecies. All the prophecies they do speak about are those found within the scriptures already written. Trying to determine how a prophecy will unfold is not the same as acting as a prophet.
 

Xchristian

Active Member
Conståntine;3193750 said:
Paul was not talking about the end of anything with regard to the scriptures I sent you. Reread the scriptures carefully. And whether or not they were quoted by Jesus directly is irrelevant -

Nope .. it's VERY relevant, because when jesus says:

[Mk 13:7][When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed; this must take place, but the end is still to come.]

then he is talking about the wars which are the opposite of peace as we know it.

Paul's 'wars' are something totally different.

context please

Conståntine;3193750 said:
Kindly delineate everyone else's version of peace and war, including yours, and then I'll be able to answer your question. I wonder if I should hold my breath. ;)

I already have delineated jesus totally from my whole life, I am just worried for you.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
you mean Moses asked people to be prophets? ...

no. the only one who can commission someone to be a prophet is God himself because prophecy comes from God.

What im saying is that when we read the prophecies of the bible, and we try to determine what they mean, we are not acting as prophets. We are simply trying to understand what the prophecy means or how it applies.

that is completely different to someone who produces a prophecy...nostradamus produced a lot of prophecies, some popes produced prophecies,...the WT society has never produced any prophecies.
 

Xchristian

Active Member
no. the only one who can commission someone to be a prophet is God himself because prophecy comes from God.

Moses said judge the prophecies, how can you not be a prophet and yet judge them?


What im saying is that when we read the prophecies of the bible, and we try to determine what they mean, we are not acting as prophets. We are simply trying to understand what the prophecy means or how it applies.

And get it wrong everytime, actually, never get anything right ..

russell-chronology.jpg


rutherford-chronology.jpg



This occurs to people without 'holy spirit' people who are astray .. they get it wrong every time.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
thats the difference between reading a prophecy in the bible and trying to understand it, and creating your own prophecies as if you are a prophet claiming to speak Gods message.

the WT are the former, they try to understand the bibles prophecies....they dont create new ones.

Just wanted to be sure you understood the difference.
 

Xchristian

Active Member
Pegg,

I beg you to please be objective.

Answer my own question, what you see me writing, not what you want to say irrespective of what I wrote, I will repeat again.

Moses said:


"And in case you should say in your heart: "How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?" When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak..." Deuteronomy 18:20-22


PLEASE .. I BEG IT OF YOU

read the underlined bit.

Tell me about the jesus prophecies that haven't come true.

How long do I have to wait before I say, game's over, this is not a prophet.

just answer my question, don't give me your answers which are irrelevant.

THANK YOU
 
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