It is not Gods fault human beings suffering.

[Spirit of Light]

I'm aware that it is a common belief among proponents of the concept of karma that "evil deeds" from past lives explain suffering in this one. Upon deeper analysis of the implications of said belief, I find that it reveals itself to be a victim-blaming, harmful idea that ironically fails to foster the compassion so many of its proponents claim to have.

It seems to me that taking the belief of karma to such an extreme that one places responsibility for being raped or tortured on the victim is a manifestation of religious fanaticism. Dharmic religions definitely don't have a shortage of extremist and hateful followers, just like all other ideologies.

Cause and effect are not about victim-blaming, it's about realizing that an action taken in the past will have a reaction in the present moment. it's nothing magical about it, it is the law of nature, it is only explained in the dharmic teaching, not even created by the dharmic teachers only realized by them.

 

[Milton Platt]

To explain, God in this context means for the Gods, Buddhas Dao`s, and so on that each religion/spiritual path teaches us about.

So to the topic: The way I see it, is that it is not the Gods who are the guilty once in human sufferings, it is our own fault that we suffer, and it is only by our own action we can end the suffering we feeling. So no matter if you are a spiritual/religious person or a non-believer it is by your own fault from the past that you feel some kind of unpleasant feelings or actually suffer more deeply.

God is the one who gives us the path to freedom, but the path itself is not without suffering, it is the suffering that gives us the realization that we are on the path to something better. Did that sound totally opposite of what you expected? I am sure it did. To become better we must first suffer for our own wrongdoings in the past, we must learn why we suffer, only then can we undo the things we did in the past and stop doing them.
So in my understanding, it is not God who punishes us, it is our own action, speech, and thoughts that have made us suffer.
If others are bugging you or harras you, actually you are the cause of it your self, eve you can not see it at the time. (this is the part called Karma)

These is only my thoughts about it, so do not think that I say I have the full answer to it, I do not.

What is your thought about this?

So are you including virtually all the gods ever invented, or just some?

 

[Spirit of Light]

So are you including virtually all the gods ever invented, or just some?

Gods are not invented. They are real beings, but i know no atheist will be able to understand that religious/spiritual people actually can understand that Gods are real even they do not show up in person in front of us and say, HERE I AM. That is not something believers need to see.

 

[Milton Platt]

Gods are not invented. They are real beings, but i know no atheist will be able to understand that religious/spiritual people actually can understand that Gods are real even they do not show up in person in front of us and say, HERE I AM. That is not something believers need to see.

So all the Roman gods and Greek gods Norse gods, and Hindu gods are real? I don't need a god to show up in person. I need a testable phenomenon that can be tied positively to the action of a specific deity. How do we go about doing that?

 

[Spirit of Light]

So all the Roman gods and Greek gods Norse gods, and Hindu gods are real? I don't need a god to show up in person. I need a testable phenomenon that can be tied positively to the action of a specific deity. How do we go about doing that?

As I mention before, there are countless Gods, Buddhas, and Daos in the spiritual realm, so I do not see the problem with all of those you mention should be real, there is proof everywhere that Gods are real, but if a person is not spiritually adjusted to see the wisdom of the Gods, how do you expect to be able to see or understand that it is God/s work you looking at?
It is a reason why the cultivation of a spiritual path takes a lifetime before one can realize the full truth of the teaching. So for someone who does not believe in the beings called Gods how should you be able to understand when you do not cultivate yourself 24/7 every day? To really understand the realm of Gods it is not enough to just believe they are there.

 

[Milton Platt]

As I mention before, there are countless Gods, Buddhas, and Daos in the spiritual realm, so I do not see the problem with all of those you mention should be real, there is proof everywhere that Gods are real, but if a person is not spiritually adjusted to see the wisdom of the Gods, how do you expect to be able to see or understand that it is God/s work you looking at?
It is a reason why the cultivation of a spiritual path takes a lifetime before one can realize the full truth of the teaching. So for someone who does not believe in the beings called Gods how should you be able to understand when you do not cultivate yourself 24/7 every day? To really understand the realm of Gods it is not enough to just believe they are there.

I agree, it is not just enough to just believe they are there. You need to actually know they are there. Knowledge requires solid testable, repeatable evidence.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I agree, it is not just enough to just believe they are there. You need to actually know they are there. Knowledge requires solid testable, repeatable evidence.

That is a human way of thinking. The human "rules" does not apply to Gods, Humans rules only work in this physical realm. To realize God you must think outside the box. You speak of knowledge, every spiritual teaching speaks of wisdom, those are two different things.
The wisdom arises from within us when we cultivate spiritual teaching, whereas knowledge is thought in schools where the human way of thinking (science) is the only "truth" they see

 

[Debater Slayer]

Cause and effect are not about victim-blaming, it's about realizing that an action taken in the past will have a reaction in the present moment. it's nothing magical about it, it is the law of nature, it is only explained in the dharmic teaching, not even created by the dharmic teachers only realized by them.

Except that to date, there is no scientific evidence whatsoever that karma is an actual phenomenon rather than a mere religious belief about cause and effect.

Saying something so unevidenced is the "law of nature" strikes me as dogmatic and unfounded at best.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Except that to date, there is no scientific evidence whatsoever that karma is an actual phenomenon rather than a mere religious belief about cause and effect.

Saying something so unevidenced is the "law of nature" strikes me as dogmatic and unfounded at best.

Well, it seems like you are stuck in the Science way of thinking whereas spiritual people gain their wisdom from within by cultivating spiritual teaching. And those teachings do speak of karma and how it works

 

[Spirit of Light]

To put in very clear writing (i think that is needed here)
Science can not prove the existence of God. Science is the human invention, not the wisdom of God. the only way to realize God is to cultivate your mind from spiritual teaching.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Well, it seems like you are stuck in the Science way of thinking whereas spiritual people gain their wisdom from within by cultivating spiritual teaching. And those teachings do speak of karma and how it works

I think one can be "spiritual" without going against science. If I found myself in a position where I was feeling like I had to choose between the two, I'd probably reconsider how reasonable my beliefs were in the first place.

The "science way of thinking" is why we have medicine, electricity, and a myriad other inventions that make our lives far easier. I'll take that over some ancient victim-blaming superstition any day of the week.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I think one can be "spiritual" without going against science. If I found myself in a position where I was feeling like I had to choose between the two, I'd probably reconsider how reasonable my beliefs were in the first place.

The "science way of thinking" is why we have medicine, electricity, and a myriad other inventions that make our lives far easier. I'll take that over some ancient victim-blaming superstition any day of the week.

Well, that is your choice of course

 

[stvdv]

You ask difficult now I think that if the victim can forgive they are the ones who win, whereas I do not believe the rapist will learn except for when they are caught, and not even that is sure to make them better. (this is of course only seen from a spiritual p.o.w, I am not sure if the mundane way of life can even accept that forgiveness help

It was indeed a tricky and IMO interesting problem. I never thought about this problem before. And I agree with your "from spiritual POV" answer.

A rapist is an extreme violator. You need to be narcissistic IMO to rape, as narcissists lack empathy, which seems needed to rape. When you have empathy it will be horrible to rape someone, because it will hurt yourself also. Maybe only possible when you are a masochist.

So, I do think that forgiveness will not work for a rapist, as he lacks empathy, which is needed to appreciate the forgiveness.

But for the spiritual aspirant it's best to forgive, otherwise, if he still burns with anger and hate, and he wants revenge (or even just justice) he might be reborn to rape this person himself.

Maybe, even when "mundane" justice is done (jailed for 10 years), but you have not forgiven, then next life you get the chance to punish/rape him. Quite a vicious circle, if we are not alert.

 

[stvdv]

What a callous, heartless thing to say.

Maybe you missed my post. @Amanaki replied to my post. And for me, his reply is definitely not "heartless" nor "callous" within the specific context of our short conversation. I found the reply very appropriate.

And I started our conversation in #104 with: Hypothetical Reincarnation and Karma is true.

 

[stvdv]

What a cruel way of looking at the world. I'm sure the rape victims I know will be happy to hear that they deserved it for something they did in a past life.

Just FYI, this is not how I look at the world.

I like the OP, very intriguing subject, and I have a small conversation with @Amanaki trying to figure out how things might work with Reincarnation and karma. So I asked some difficult questions, which seem cruel.

Hence, I started our conversation in #104 with: Hypothetical Reincarnation and Karma is true.

I do not know whether or not it is true. So, just even for that reason alone, I would never tell victims they deserved it for something they did in a previous life. But even if I knew, I would not tell.

 

[stvdv]

What a cruel way of looking at the world. I'm sure the rape victims I know will be happy to hear that they deserved it for something they did in a past life.

Hypothetical Reincation+Karma is true:

Humans act cruel, that's reality and that's cruel. Even in this life men rape others. It makes sense they won't get away. So, this scenario is just what it is. Next life scenario is not specific cruel IMO. It would even be more cruel if rapists get away, life after life.

If people don't like it, they better stop raping. Because karma is said to be your bitsj.

At least karma concept might make rapist think before the rape (when they believe in karma).

I won't tell victim the karma story
I will tell rapist the karma story

Of course: all hypothetical.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Personally i do not think the Gods acting a lot in this world nowadays, they observe us humans and when they see we go astray they give teachings that should help humans to understand that we are about to destroy our self if we do not correct our behaviour. this is in my understanding why there are so many different spiritual paths for us humans to choose from. because we are not same and we have a different understanding of the truth. so we get different spiritual teachings where we choose the one that makes us realize the truth.

The outside factors as you call them is to me only a part of the path I am on, a part of the "school of life" so to speak. Everything happens for a reason, and the reason is for me to realize where i been going wrong in life, and how i can do to get out of the "bad situation"

How did you come to your understanding though?

 

[Spirit of Light]

How did you come to your understanding though?

from more than 20 years of cultivation of spiritual path, both in Buddhism and later as Falun Gong practitioner

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Maybe you missed my post. @Amanaki replied to my post.

Your post was awful, too.

And for me, his reply is definitely not "heartless" nor "callous" within the specific context of our short conversation. I found the reply very appropriate.

Oh... some random person on the internet thinks that blaming rape victims for their assaults is fine. Guess I was wrong, then.

And I started our conversation in #104 with: Hypothetical Reincarnation and Karma is true.

Any particular reason why you take these as true?

 

[nPeace]

To explain, God in this context means for the Gods, Buddhas Dao`s, and so on that each religion/spiritual path teaches us about.

So to the topic: The way I see it, is that it is not the Gods who are the guilty once in human sufferings, it is our own fault that we suffer, and it is only by our own action we can end the suffering we feeling. So no matter if you are a spiritual/religious person or a non-believer it is by your own fault from the past that you feel some kind of unpleasant feelings or actually suffer more deeply.

God is the one who gives us the path to freedom, but the path itself is not without suffering, it is the suffering that gives us the realization that we are on the path to something better. Did that sound totally opposite of what you expected? I am sure it did. To become better we must first suffer for our own wrongdoings in the past, we must learn why we suffer, only then can we undo the things we did in the past and stop doing them.
So in my understanding, it is not God who punishes us, it is our own action, speech, and thoughts that have made us suffer.
If others are bugging you or harras you, actually you are the cause of it your self, eve you can not see it at the time. (this is the part called Karma)

These is only my thoughts about it, so do not think that I say I have the full answer to it, I do not.

What is your thought about this?

My belief is partly in agreement with you, in that God is not the cause of human suffering, which according to the Bible, is really a result of the sin of the forefather of the human race (Romans 5:12).
I believe it is true that our actions at times, contribute to our suffering, but this is not always the case, since others cause our suffering, which we have no control over (Ecclesiastes 8:9), and unforeseen and unfortunate circumstances affect us at times, which we also have no control over (Ecclesiastes 9:11, 12).

Edit:
I believe God is the one who will end all human suffering, as he alone is the one who has the means to do so - Revelation 21:1-4.