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Israel's stunning victory over Iran

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Congratulations to Israel for its stupendous victory this past weekend. And many thanks to the UK, France, the US, and even JORDAN! (can you believe that?) for helping to shoot down the drones and missiles that Iran launched. Also, thanks to the Saudis, UAE, and other gulf states that provided the intelligence that facilitated the victory. It's like everyone just came together.

I am not sure if Israel will respond or not. It's past history is one of always responding and not being proportional -- send 5 rockets into Israel, and it will bomb you into the stone age. However, in this particular case, so very little damage was done to Israel, that it may simply consider this such a great win that no response is necessary. Israel may also consider the fact that this attack by Iran has switched world sympathies to Israel, and choose not to mess with that. We can only wait and see.
 

idea

Question Everything
With Ukraine/Russia methods, I was wondering why more drones were not being used in Israel? Interesting to compare the technologies being used in both wars.

Not Israeli victory, the drones were not shot down by Israel.

Poor Ukraine, why does everyone support Israel and not Ukraine?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Congratulations to Israel for its stupendous victory this past weekend. And many thanks to the UK, France, the US, and even JORDAN! (can you believe that?) for helping to shoot down the drones and missiles that Iran launched. Also, thanks to the Saudis, UAE, and other gulf states that provided the intelligence that facilitated the victory. It's like everyone just came together.
Yes -- though "stupendous" might be a bit over the top, and I would expect no less from Jordan.

Sadly ...

While Israel suffered little in the way of significant damage overnight, this one family was dealt a devastating blow. Amina al-Hasoni, 7, was clinging to life — the sole serious casualty of the Iranian barrage. And were it not for systemic inequities in Israel, her relatives said, maybe she, too, could have been spared.​
There are roughly 300,000 Arab Bedouins in the Negev desert. About a quarter of them live in villages that are not recognized by Israeli officials. Without state recognition, those communities have long suffered from a lack of planning and basic services like running water, sewers and electricity. And few have access to bomb shelters, despite repeated requests to the state. [source]​

Her name is Amina al-Hasoni. She's seven years old and clinging to life.

One question that has been bantered about in the news media is whether or not the Iranian attack was purely performative, i.e., carried out in a way to achieve the maximum drama with the minimum effect. Be that as it may, and given the alliance that was forged to counter the Iranian attack, I think that Biden's "take the win" guidance has merit.

Meanwhile, in the wake of this victory, the hostages remain hostages and Hamas has cut in half the number they are willing to release during a six-week pause, and too much of the world couldn't care less.
 

Spice

StewardshipPeaceIntergityCommunityEquality
Iron dome was paid for by US. Israeli is dependent little child, unable to stand on its own.
It's my opinion that is what Iran was testing, knowing that Israel's allies are not happy with its behavior towards Gaza, Iran needed to see who would show up, and how far their response would go. They saw the allies playing big brother, still advising, protecting, but not jumping into little brother's business.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Her name is Amina al-Hasoni. She's seven years old and clinging to life.
The harm of any child is tragic, even just one.
Meanwhile, in the wake of this victory, the hostages remain hostages and Hamas has cut in half the number they are willing to release during a six-week pause, and too much of the world couldn't care less.
I just don't understand why the world isn't clamoring for the release of the hostages. This was a war crime. Hamas has no right to demand anything in exchange for them.
 

idea

Question Everything
"Israel has been the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign aid since its founding, receiving about $300 billion (adjusted for inflation) in total economic and military assistance."

Zionism is a European Christian baby.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
"Israel has been the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign aid since its founding, receiving about $300 billion (adjusted for inflation) in total economic and military assistance."

Zionism is a European Christian baby.
Israel is made up of Jews from all around the world, not just the Ashkenazim, as well as a minority of non-Jews. Indeed some Jews in Israel are descended from first century Judeans who never left the Land.

Since the destruction of the temple, and subsequent diaspora, Jews have recited every year at Passover, "Next year in Jerusalem." IOW we never gave up our claim to the land or the hope of returning. So in that regard you can say that all Jews everywhere are Zionists.

The Zionism movement proper did indeed first arise in Europe, as a response to the constant stream of harassment and killings that Jews had to put up with, and the fact that the Emancipation of the Jews in Western Europe (referring to the new movement to make Jews citizens of the countries in which we dwelt) was a complete and utter failure.

Let's talk about Herzl, who is considered the Father of Zionism, although to be honest, many other Jews contributed to the philosophy and each has their own story. Herzl (pronounced Hurts-l) was a Viennese Jew. He was highly assimilated. In fact, he seriously considered converting to Catholicism just to make his assimilation 100%. Then he had a watershed moment at the trial of Dreyfus in France.

The Dreyfus affair was an instance when a Jew was framed for a murder he did not commit. We know this because later in history, the witnesses basically confessed that they had lied. French society rallied against Dreyfus, but it didn't stop there, it rallied against all Jews. A century after Jews were emancipated in France and assimilated, Jews were still the victims of prejudice and hate.

So Herzl was standing outside the courthouse when Dreyfus was convicted, and what he heard chilled him to the bone. The crowd was not shouting "Death to Dreyfus." They were shouting "Death to the Jews."

It became suddenly crystal clear to Herzl that emancipation and assimilation was not the solution. No matter how much Jews had become fellow citizens and embraced the culture of their adopted country, we were always going to be victimized and killed. The ONLY solution to the problem of antisemitism was to have our own land, and be a self-determining autonomous people.

While at first many Jews were resistant to this secular philosophy of Zionism, the holocaust changed everything. There were very few Orthodox Jews in Germany. German Jews were among the most highly assimilated in the world, who thought of themselves as Germans. It is interesting that in Anne Frank's diary, the ONLY time she discussed Judaism with her family was when they were celebrating CHRISTMAS. And yet it was precisely because Jews were so assimilated that Hitler believed them to be a great threat. Assimilation meant intermarriage, and that would, in the eyes of the Nazis, pollute the blood of the German people. As a result, six million were systematically killed.

Zionism is, simply, the secular political philosophy that Jews deserve self determination in order to survive in an antisemitic world. And really, every group has this right, not just Jews. It is a HUMAN right.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Zionism is, simply, the secular political philosophy that Jews deserve self determination in order to survive in an antisemitic world. And really, every group has this right, not just Jews. It is a HUMAN right.

Good post.

The question, of course, is what one does when two peoples have the presumed right to self determination in the same land. It becomes even more problematic when one realizes that many, many peoples lived in ha aretz, the land, over the centuries and, during much of the time when 'Israel" was dominant, they were dominant by virtue of being a client state.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Good post.

The question, of course, is what one does when two peoples have the presumed right to self determination in the same land. It becomes even more problematic when one realizes that many, many peoples lived in ha aretz, the land, over the centuries and, during much of the time when 'Israel" was dominant, they were dominant by virtue of being a client state.
Yes, I'm totally with you on this. The troubles in Israel absolutely break my heart. While I'm an ardent Zionist and pro-Israel, I'm certainly not above criticizing Israel. I'm for a two state solution, but I despair that it will ever happen. Never have the Palestinians ever sincerely wanted a Palestinian state -- they would be fine if their territory were governed by, say, Jordan, as it was before 1967. Their agenda is to destroy the Jewish state with a singular devotion. And Israel has lost heart on a two state solution. In 2000 when the Palestinians were offered 95% of what they "wanted," Arafat walked out. It became very clear that he was not negotiating in earnest. While I disagree, I completely understand why Israelis no longer want to waste time trying to work things out.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Never have the Palestinians ever sincerely wanted a Palestinian state -- they would be fine if their territory were governed by, say, Jordan, as it was before 1967. Their agenda is to destroy the Jewish state with a singular devotion. And Israel has lost heart on a two state solution. In 2000 when the Palestinians were offered 95% of what they "wanted," Arafat walked out.
This "we're nice, the Palestinians are insincere, and Arafat sucks" synopsis is convenient and self serving folk history. A far better overview is dealt with in Slate's Was Arafat the Problem?.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I am not sure if Israel will respond or not. It's past history is one of always responding and not being proportional -- send 5 rockets into Israel, and it will bomb you into the stone age.

The directness in highlighting that Israel's responses are often disproportionate is refreshing to see amid some people's minimization of the atrocities and abuses the IDF has committed in Gaza since October 7 (and against Palestinians in general over the decades before that). Nonetheless, the way the above paragraph is worded leads me to wonder whether it is meant to be merely descriptive or to celebrate and glorify "[bombing] into the stone age"—especially now, during the starvation of Gazans and the IDF's military assault that has killed tens of thousands of civilians in a way that has indeed been nothing short of grossly disproportionate collective punishment.

However, in this particular case, so very little damage was done to Israel, that it may simply consider this such a great win that no response is necessary. Israel may also consider the fact that this attack by Iran has switched world sympathies to Israel, and choose not to mess with that. We can only wait and see.

Which world's sympathies? Certainly not the world of the many people worldwide who have long opposed Israel's policies toward Palestinians and who still do. The governments of most Western powers have been sympathetic to and supportive of Israel's actions even during its massacring of Gazans—including over 13,000 children—so no significant change has occurred on that front. On the other hand, average people's sentiments are far more complex and diverse, as are the positions of many governments, primarily but not exclusively in the Global South, such as those of Colombia, Nicaragua, South Africa (which took Israel to the ICJ), Ireland, Spain, Belgium, and Bolivia.

Never have the Palestinians ever sincerely wanted a Palestinian state -- they would be fine if their territory were governed by, say, Jordan, as it was before 1967. Their agenda is to destroy the Jewish state with a singular devotion.

"The Palestinians" comprise millions of people, so the assertion that they "[have never] sincerely wanted a Palestinian state" and that "their agenda is to destroy the Jewish state with a singular devotion" is exactly the sort of sweeping overgeneralization that only serves to inflame and demonize rather than increase understanding or provide nuance.

Either way, I'm glad that Iran's attack hasn't killed any civilians, and I hope that the Middle East doesn't have a breakout of yet another war. The chest-thumping and jingoism I have seen in some comments elsewhere online about this, wishing for destruction and death whether for Israel at large or Iran at large, has been as sickening as it is irresponsible, much like the minimization of or outright support for the IDF's mass killing of Gazans or of Hamas' massacring of Israeli civilians on October 7.

There's a reason I rarely post in threads about this subject anymore. Many of the discussions often border on being despairing, and they rarely proceed without involving dehumanization and demonization of the "other side." The main reason I decided to post in this case was that I saw some claims that don't describe my own position or the positions of many other people who support Palestinian statehood and rights in the slightest. They definitely don't describe the views of most Palestinians I have known throughout my life, who support peaceful coexistence and don't wish to "destroy the Jewish state with a singular devotion."

I wish you and your family and friends, who I'm assuming might include people in Israel or who have been there, safety and peace—just as I wish for Palestinians.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Congratulations to Israel for its stupendous victory this past weekend. And many thanks to the UK, France, the US, and even JORDAN! (can you believe that?) for helping to shoot down the drones and missiles that Iran launched. Also, thanks to the Saudis, UAE, and other gulf states that provided the intelligence that facilitated the victory. It's like everyone just came together.

I am not sure if Israel will respond or not. It's past history is one of always responding and not being proportional -- send 5 rockets into Israel, and it will bomb you into the stone age. However, in this particular case, so very little damage was done to Israel, that it may simply consider this such a great win that no response is necessary. Israel may also consider the fact that this attack by Iran has switched world sympathies to Israel, and choose not to mess with that. We can only wait and see.

Israel says it will respond without saying how it will respond. However I suspect this will just be Israel without the support of it allies.
 
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