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Israel (is) my son...my firstborn.

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Truth does not self-destruct, and the case that Tovia Singer attempts to make is that Jesus Christ is not the Jewish Messiah!

Christianity as a religion reflects the weaknesses in man, but the head of the Church, Christ, is not deserving of the criticism He receives. Nor, might l say, are the apostles, who followed in his footsteps.

As l see it, the falling away amongst Gentiles is actually a prophetic sign of the times.
Someone must make the case until the day it cannot be denied. It is how things must be. Should Christ pass by unchallenged and untested? Every work must be tested as if by fire, or it cannot be relied upon. And, no matter how good or bad your arguments what you must do to have true wins is to outshine. Jews are not too shabby in this, and it's not easy to make them look like slackers which is to he only real competition. But who wants to work that hard? Few. And for that reason we are stuck in a contest of mere words
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Someone must make the case until the day it cannot be denied. It is how things must be. Should Christ pass by unchallenged and untested? Every work must be tested as if by fire, or it cannot be relied upon. And, no matter how good or bad your arguments what you must do to have true wins is to outshine. Jews are not too shabby in this, and it's not easy to make them look like slackers which is to he only real competition. But who wants to work that hard? Few. And for that reason we are stuck in a contest of mere words
I think the key is to be found in the words of Gamaliel [Acts 5:33-40], who warned the religious establishment with these words:
'And now l say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.'

As subtle as his arguments may be, l do believe that Tovia Singer has taken up the fight against God.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The role of an historian is to give an accurate account of events. This requires using more than one source. If Luke had relied on one source, he would have left important gaps in the account, but by gathering eyewitness accounts it was possible to corroborate the sayings and events.

When one adds the four Gospel accounts together, one has an unparalleled evidence base for the historicity of Jesus' life. In fact, the beauty and structure of scripture is itself evidence of its divine origin.

The other consideration, which seems to be lost on many, is that most of the Gospel message is a repetition of the Law, and demonstrates how orthodox Jesus was as a Jew. Jesus was a mediator between two covenants, and it was necessary to demonstrate a fulfilment of the Law in order to begin a new covenant in his own person.
Well, that is not the case, since the differing accounts do not jive. The "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-34 has not changed, nor has it "passed away" or has it become "obsolete". The "new covenant" of the Gentile church, the "adulteress", bought for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver (Hosea 3), is the "covenant with death", based on a "refuge of lies", per Isaiah 28:15-18. Not to worry, for it will be swept away (Is 28:17).
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
You don't t have to look beyond the Bible to see that the genealogies are sound. All the evidence exists in scripture.

The point made by Josephus is that genealogies were kept in the public records in Jerusalem. Up until the destruction of Jerusalem, it was possible to check these records.
Well, if "Joseph" was not the father, then what good is his genealogy, and I don't remember him being included in "scripture", nor his father "Jacob". Plus, with respect to Matthew 1, my math may be poor, but I don't see 42 generations as claimed.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think the key is to be found in the words of Gamaliel [Acts 5:33-40], who warned the religious establishment with these words:
'And now l say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.'

As subtle as his arguments may be, l do believe that Tovia Singer has taken up the fight against God.
"Let Baal defend himself," but if Baal must then God should be required no less. It is a matter of who lives and loves best not who argues best. So if Tovia Singer is an upstanding person then I cannot say that he is fighting God just because he doesn't say what I think God would have him to say.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I think the key is to be found in the words of Gamaliel [Acts 5:33-40], who warned the religious establishment with these words:
'And now l say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.'

As subtle as his arguments may be, l do believe that Tovia Singer has taken up the fight against God.
As with the "words of Gamaliel", let it play out, for according to Isaiah 22:25 & Matthew 7:27, and Matthew 13:30, the tares (those who commit lawlessness (Mt 13:38-42)) and their community will "fall" and be thrown into the "furnace of fire". One has to only wait until the "end of the age" (Matthew 7:30), after a period of time, times, and half a time (Daniel 7:25) until their "destruction". That includes the "beast" along with the church (Babylon and her daughters) who sits on the "beast" (Rev 17:3).
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Well, that is not the case, since the differing accounts do not jive. The "new covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-34 has not changed, nor has it "passed away" or has it become "obsolete". The "new covenant" of the Gentile church, the "adulteress", bought for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver (Hosea 3), is the "covenant with death", based on a "refuge of lies", per Isaiah 28:15-18. Not to worry, for it will be swept away (Is 28:17).
Jeremiah 31:31-34 is a prophecy directed at both lsrael and Judah. As is evident from history, there are many Gentiles accepting the Gospel, but Judah continues to follow after the law. The prophecy cannot find its fulfilment until both lsrael and Judah 'Know the LORD', having had their iniquity forgiven. This is still future to us.

Your criticism of the Church is unfounded, as Jesus Christ was given for a covenant of the people, and for a light of the Gentiles [lsaiah 42:6].

As Paul notes, the Gospel started with the Jews, but it must go to the Gentiles before returning, finally, to the Jews again. [Romans 11]
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Well, if "Joseph" was not the father, then what good is his genealogy, and I don't remember him being included in "scripture", nor his father "Jacob". Plus, with respect to Matthew 1, my math may be poor, but I don't see 42 generations as claimed.
Joseph's genealogy becomes significant when he marries Mary, because their child takes on the legitimacy of a royal.

I think you'll find that there are three groups of fourteen. The fourteen generations appear 'from Abraham to David'; from 'David until the carrying away into Babylon'; and 'from the carrying away into Babylon unto (and including) Christ'.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
"Let Baal defend himself," but if Baal must then God should be required no less. It is a matter of who lives and loves best not who argues best. So if Tovia Singer is an upstanding person then I cannot say that he is fighting God just because he doesn't say what I think God would have him to say.
You say that it is love that matters, and l agree. But are you aware that there is a difference between the love of God and the love of man?

If the love of man is sufficient to save, then there would be no reason to have faith in Christ.

Romans 10:20,21.
'But Esaias is very bold, and saith, l was found of them that sought me not; l was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
But to lsrael he saith, All day long l have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.'

Notice that it is lsaiah saying this, not just Paul!
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You say that it is love that matters, and l agree. But are you aware that there is a difference between the love of God and the love of man?

If the love of man is sufficient to save, then there would be no reason to have faith in Christ.

Romans 10:20,21.
'But Esaias is very bold, and saith, l was found of them that sought me not; l was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
But to lsrael he saith, All day long l have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.'

Notice that it is lsaiah saying this, not just Paul!
No one can truly love God unless they love people. It takes no effort to say "I love God", but the words are only true to the degree that we love people. The love of God probably should be estimated as if it is a percentage of the love we have for people. I don't know what that percentage is: 1%, 10%, 30%... some low percentage. If I love people a lot then I am more likely to have some love for God, but if I don't love people it is certainty that I don't love God. In this respect the Christians are ordered to out-do the Jews. If this is done Tovia Singer will have nothing to say, so really he can do nothing. He cannot destroy, cannot stop or prevent. He isn't the obstacle.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
seph's genealogy becomes significant when he marries Mary, because their child takes on the legitimacy of a royal.

I think you'll find that there are three groups of fourteen. The fourteen generations appear 'from Abraham to David'; from 'David until the carrying away into Babylon'; and 'from the carrying away into Babylon unto (and including) Christ'.
It says fourteen generations, but try counting the included members of those groupings. I don't know, I don't know the new math, but it doesn't seem to add up using old math. If the blessing passes through Mary, then what was Matthew doing listing Joseph, and his progenitors? I don't know, but your generation of Gnostics seem to gloss over a lot.
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Jeremiah 31:31-34 is a prophecy directed at both lsrael and Judah. As is evident from history, there are many Gentiles accepting the Gospel, but Judah continues to follow after the law. The prophecy cannot find its fulfilment until both lsrael and Judah 'Know the LORD', having had their iniquity forgiven. This is still future to us.

Your criticism of the Church is unfounded, as Jesus Christ was given for a covenant of the people, and for a light of the Gentiles [lsaiah 42:6].

As Paul notes, the Gospel started with the Jews, but it must go to the Gentiles before returning, finally, to the Jews again. [Romans 11]
The purchase of the "adulteress", the Gentile church, for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver, for "many days" (Hosea 3) until "Israel will return" and "seek the LORD their God and David their king", happens "in the last days". (Hosea 3) The "many days" of the "adulteress" is coming to an end, as we are entering into "the last days", when Judah and Ephraim/Israel will be reunited under the kingship of David, on the land given to Jacob, and they will "walk in My statutes", "and will be careful to observe My ordinances" (Ezekiel 36:24-29). As for the "nations"/Gentiles who survive, they will be ruled by a "rod of iron" (Rev 19:15) from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16). The adulteress Gentiles (Greeks) will simply return to their former husband/prince/gods (Daniel 10:20), after confessing that their fathers taught them nothing but "falsehoods" (Jeremiah 16:19). You are riding the wrong horse pulled by a false prophet Paul, but you stand on 2000 years of the traditions of men.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
No one can truly love God unless they love people. It takes no effort to say "I love God", but the words are only true to the degree that we love people. The love of God probably should be estimated as if it is a percentage of the love we have for people. I don't know what that percentage is: 1%, 10%, 30%... some low percentage. If I love people a lot then I am more likely to have some love for God, but if I don't love people it is certainty that I don't love God. In this respect the Christians are ordered to out-do the Jews. If this is done Tovia Singer will have nothing to say, so really he can do nothing. He cannot destroy, cannot stop or prevent. He isn't the obstacle.
The ability to love with God's love is not about the effort we make but about the faith we have in Christ.

Life lived under the law is a life based on man's own strength to live righteously. A life lived by faith in Jesus is a life surrendered to His strength and Spirit.

This is what Paul says in Romans 10:3,4:
'For they [lsrael] being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.'

How is the love of God received? As it says in the NT, it was Jesus who came to baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. How else does one expect to receive the love of God? It is not ours to claim as our own. God's love is a gift.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
It says fourteen generations, but try counting the included members of those groupings. I don't know, I don't know the new math, but it doesn't seem to add up using old math. If the blessing passes through Mary, then what was Matthew doing listing Joseph, and his progenitors? I don't know, but your generation of Gnostics seem to gloss over a lot.
View attachment 74212
Where the genealogy above is wrong is at the bottom, where it claims that Matthew provides Mary's lineage. He doesn't. Matthew provides Joseph's royal line, which is a paternal line.

On the right, you have Mary's line, but it cannot include a female so it runs through her father, Heli. Heli is Joseph's father-in-law.

You will see that Mary's genealogy in Luke runs back through Nathan, a son of David (but not of the royal line). Mary's line provides us with Jesus' humanity or natural descent.

Since Joseph was not the true father of Jesus, it is only by his marriage to Mary that he conveys the royal legitimacy to Jesus. Jesus is, therefore, made a rightful king to the throne in Judah by the marriage of Joseph to Mary. Jesus is also a human descendant from David.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The purchase of the "adulteress", the Gentile church, for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver, for "many days" (Hosea 3) until "Israel will return" and "seek the LORD their God and David their king", happens "in the last days". (Hosea 3) The "many days" of the "adulteress" is coming to an end, as we are entering into "the last days", when Judah and Ephraim/Israel will be reunited under the kingship of David, on the land given to Jacob, and they will "walk in My statutes", "and will be careful to observe My ordinances" (Ezekiel 36:24-29). As for the "nations"/Gentiles who survive, they will be ruled by a "rod of iron" (Rev 19:15) from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:16). The adulteress Gentiles (Greeks) will simply return to their former husband/prince/gods (Daniel 10:20), after confessing that their fathers taught them nothing but "falsehoods" (Jeremiah 16:19). You are riding the wrong horse pulled by a false prophet Paul, but you stand on 2000 years of the traditions of men.
You've repeated this misconception many times.

The Church is the 'body of Christ', made up of both Jew and Gentile, and is not to be confused with the Gentile nations.

The Church is not a nation with a portion of land that they can call their own. The Church has made Christ its head, and heaven its Promised Land. This is why it is necessary to be 'born again' of the Spirit of God.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The ability to love with God's love is not about the effort we make but about the faith we have in Christ.

Life lived under the law is a life based on man's own strength to live righteously. A life lived by faith in Jesus is a life surrendered to His strength and Spirit.

This is what Paul says in Romans 10:3,4:
'For they [lsrael] being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.'

How is the love of God received? As it says in the NT, it was Jesus who came to baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. How else does one expect to receive the love of God? It is not ours to claim as our own. God's love is a gift.
I did not bring up such a thing as "God's love," which seems a different subject. I am alluding to this which was the basis for saying "If I love people a lot then I am more likely to have some love for God, but if I don't love people it is certainty that I don't love God."

But God is not a man, so feeling the love of God is not the same as feeling love from people. It is abstract, and you don't feel it which is part of the problem. God's discipline is another way of describing God's love. So if you are hurt that is God loving you, from a certain point of view. This is not an easily accepted kind of love. It is more alien than human.
[1Jo 4:19-21 NIV] 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.​
Life lived under the law is intended to aid a male in developing spiritual attributes which we call spiritual fruit, such as patience and peace. Psalm 19 is a song about how great the law is at converting the heart. How does a male person like me get over an offense like what happens when his family is attacked and harmed or when his livelihood is taken? What about when we are mistreated by others, and over time we start feeling resentment? We don't get over it, because our hearts pour out venomous foam. Unless we are regenerated continually we express evils. Even if we haven't been harmed we daydream about the heroic act of revenge or unheroic acts of domination and cruelty. Any and all evils come from the human heart. According to the Psalms the law helps with this, and so its not good to talk about it like its a bad thing. Also its not performed under one's own strength but in a tightly knit community, usually.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
You've repeated this misconception many times.

The Church is the 'body of Christ', made up of both Jew and Gentile, and is not to be confused with the Gentile nations.

The Church is not a nation with a portion of land that they can call their own. The Church has made Christ its head, and heaven its Promised Land. This is why it is necessary to be 'born again' of the Spirit of God.
Your false prophet Paul claims to be the apostle to the Gentile church, in which "Gentile" refers to non Jewish nations. Peter and Paul per Zechariah 11:7-10 & 17 were chosen as "shepherds", to "pasture" the "flock (Gentile church) doomed for slaughter" (Zech 11:7). The fact that the "Gentile" church (daughters of Babylon) still exist, does not mean that its destruction is not at hand (Rev 18:21). Your "church" is a conglomeration of around 30,000 different sects, which time to time kill each other, or at least wipe each out. As for "heaven" being you promised land, well according to Ezekiel 37:24-25, the "land that I gave Jacob" ruled by David is the promised land (kingdom of God). At that time your "nations"/Gentiles will be ruled with a "rod of iron" (Rev 19:15). As for being "born again", give me a break. If one is born of God, one cannot practice sin, and Paul's church all claim to be sinners. (1 John 3:8-9) "The one who practices sin is of the devil", or in this case born of his false prophet Paul, who "commit lawlessness" (Mt 13:38-42) and will be gathered and thrown into the furnace of fire.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Where the genealogy above is wrong is at the bottom, where it claims that Matthew provides Mary's lineage. He doesn't. Matthew provides Joseph's royal line, which is a paternal line.

On the right, you have Mary's line, but it cannot include a female so it runs through her father, Heli. Heli is Joseph's father-in-law.

You will see that Mary's genealogy in Luke runs back through Nathan, a son of David (but not of the royal line). Mary's line provides us with Jesus' humanity or natural descent.

Since Joseph was not the true father of Jesus, his marriage to Mary only conveys the royal legitimacy to Jesus. Jesus is, therefore, made a rightful king to the throne in Judah by the marriage of Joseph to Mary. Jesus is also a human descendant from David.
Both Matthew and Luke provide the lineage of "Joseph". The only way you can tie that "Joseph" to Mary's lineage, is if the "Joseph" of Luke is not Mary's husband, but a different relative, which is not set out and presumed by you. As for the accuracy of Matthew, he leaves out around 6 of the line of studs, making the 42 lineage number a little hanging in the air. Choosing the "royal line" is another of your presumptions which can be argued against, although I would choose the line of Solomon. One does not have to be a son of Nathan to be a "human descendant". All who do he will of God are sons of God. There are already "sons of God", the few who do righteousness, on earth. It is the "son of man" who is returning on the clouds (Mt 24:30). Yeshua simply provided the "Way" to "life", yet the "many" chose the wide path of the false prophets, ruled by their demon spirit (Rev 16:13).
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I did not bring up such a thing as "God's love," which seems a different subject. I am alluding to this which was the basis for saying "If I love people a lot then I am more likely to have some love for God, but if I don't love people it is certainty that I don't love God."

But God is not a man, so feeling the love of God is not the same as feeling love from people. It is abstract, and you don't feel it which is part of the problem. God's discipline is another way of describing God's love. So if you are hurt that is God loving you, from a certain point of view. This is not an easily accepted kind of love. It is more alien than human.
[1Jo 4:19-21 NIV] 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.​
Life lived under the law is intended to aid a male in developing spiritual attributes which we call spiritual fruit, such as patience and peace. Psalm 19 is a song about how great the law is at converting the heart. How does a male person like me get over an offense like what happens when his family is attacked and harmed or when his livelihood is taken? What about when we are mistreated by others, and over time we start feeling resentment? We don't get over it, because our hearts pour out venomous foam. Unless we are regenerated continually we express evils. Even if we haven't been harmed we daydream about the heroic act of revenge or unheroic acts of domination and cruelty. Any and all evils come from the human heart. According to the Psalms the law helps with this, and so its not good to talk about it like its a bad thing. Also its not performed under one's own strength but in a tightly knit community, usually.
The love of God is not an alien love, it simply has a greater capacity than man's love, which is restricted by our sinful nature.

To my understanding, the law acts as a teacher, preparing the ground for the coming of Christ, the righteousness of God.

If we do not live by faith in the love of God, then we make our own love the of object of boasting.

The reason that Tovia Singer is wrong about Jesus is that he imagines it is possible to find salvation through acts of self righteousness. Yet, man's righteousness is always tainted by sin, and it takes a sinless man to conquer death. And, according to the scriptures, the only sinless man, Jesus, was begotten of a miracle at conception.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Your false prophet Paul claims to be the apostle to the Gentile church, in which "Gentile" refers to non Jewish nations. Peter and Paul per Zechariah 11:7-10 & 17 were chosen as "shepherds", to "pasture" the "flock (Gentile church) doomed for slaughter" (Zech 11:7). The fact that the "Gentile" church (daughters of Babylon) still exist, does not mean that its destruction is not at hand (Rev 18:21). Your "church" is a conglomeration of around 30,000 different sects, which time to time kill each other, or at least wipe each out. As for "heaven" being you promised land, well according to Ezekiel 37:24-25, the "land that I gave Jacob" ruled by David is the promised land (kingdom of God). At that time your "nations"/Gentiles will be ruled with a "rod of iron" (Rev 19:15). As for being "born again", give me a break. If one is born of God, one cannot practice sin, and Paul's church all claim to be sinners. (1 John 3:8-9) "The one who practices sin is of the devil", or in this case born of his false prophet Paul, who "commit lawlessness" (Mt 13:38-42) and will be gathered and thrown into the furnace of fire.
Paul only went to the Gentiles after first approaching the Jews, and being rejected. Yet, when speaking about the Church, he states that it is made up of both Jew and Gentile [Romans 2:9,10] Nor does this distinction continue to exist, for in Christ 'ye are all one' [Galatians 3:25-29].

It's also important to understand that all men are sinners, and that salvation from sin can only come through the Sinless One. Therefore, if you think that you can get to the Father by bypassing the baptism of Jesus Christ then you are 'much mistaken'!
 
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