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Israel (is) my son...my firstborn.

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I have been listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer arguing that Israel is the firstborn of God. In so doing, he makes the case that Jesus Christ cannot, therefore, be the firstborn of God, and that Christians who hold to such a belief are guilty of 'replacement theology'.

I think he is wrong, at least in part, and I'd like to explain where I think he is in error.

Here's a passage to lead us in:
Exodus 4:22. 'And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:'

So, 'Israel' is here assumed to be a reference to the children of Israel. Thereafter, Rabbi Singer will make the case that the firstborn son is consistently a reference to the children of Israel, brought together by God, under Moses, and under the Torah.

I would now like to ask, Where is Israel first mentioned in scripture?

Genesis 32:28. 'And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob ['following after, supplanter'], but Israel ['ruling with God']: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed'.

Interestingly, although Jacob 'shall be called no more Jacob', we discover that Jacob, son of Isaac, continues to be called Jacob, but interspersed with 'Israel'. Why is this?

The children of Jacob [Joshua 24:4] have a father, Jacob. Do the 'children of Israel' have a father, Israel? If so, what is the difference between the 'children of Jacob' and the 'children of Israel'?

The reason I make this distinction is because I think it matters. The children are a product of their father. Are the 'children of Israel' the ones who see God 'face to face' [Genesis 32:30]?

Do you think Rabbi Singer's claims about Israel as the 'firstborn son' are legitimate? Is it not possible that 'Israel' 'my firstborn' refers to BOTH head and body, to both Messiah and his followers?
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Do you think Rabbi Singer's claims about Israel as the 'firstborn son' are legitimate?
I recommend editing a link to the particular video you are referring to. Otherwise it would be difficult to know what exactly you are arguing against.
Is it not possible that 'Israel' 'my firstborn' refers to BOTH head and body, to both Messiah and his followers?
Anything is "possible". It's possible that Jesus was a polka-dotted unicorn with a stegosaurus tail. But is it probable?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I recommend editing a link to the particular video you are referring to. Otherwise it would be difficult to know what exactly you are arguing against.

Anything is "possible". It's possible that Jesus was a polka-dotted unicorn with a stegosaurus tail. But is it probable?
Yes, hope this helps. It's not a long video.

 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I have been listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer arguing that Israel is the firstborn of God. In so doing, he makes the case that Jesus Christ cannot, therefore, be the firstborn of God, and that Christians who hold to such a belief are guilty of 'replacement theology'.

I think he has this wrong, at least in part, and I'd like to explain where I think he is in error.

Here's a passage to lead us in:
Exodus 4:22. 'And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:'

So, 'Israel' is here assumed to be a reference to the children of Israel. Thereafter, Rabbi Singer will make the case that the firstborn son is consistently a reference to the children of Israel, brought together by God, under Moses, and under the Torah.

I would now like to ask, Where is Israel first mentioned in scripture?

Genesis 32:28. 'And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob ['following after, supplanter'], but Israel ['ruling with God']: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed'.

Interestingly, although Jacob 'shall be called no more Jacob', we discover that Jacob, son of Isaac, continues to be called Jacob, but interspersed with 'Israel'. Why is this?

The children of Jacob [Joshua 24:4] have a father, Jacob. Do the 'children of Israel' have a father, Israel? If so, what is the difference between the 'children of Jacob' and the 'children of Israel'?

The reason I make this distinction is because I think it matters. The children are a product of their father. Are the 'children of Israel' the ones who see God 'face to face' [Genesis 32:30]?

Do you think Rabbi Singer's claims about Israel as the 'firstborn son' are legitimate? Is it not possible that 'Israel' 'my firstborn' refers to BOTH head and body, to both Messiah and his followers?
Good points, IMO.

Additionally, I think that the application isn't correct either.

Jesus was declared to be the "only begotten of the Father" and of God speaking "my beloved son"- and not "my firstborn".

He was declared to be the "firstborn among the dead" after the resurrection.

firstborn also gives the understanding that there are others to come.

But I don't know everything, so open to viewpoints
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Good points, IMO.

Additionally, I think that the application isn't correct either.

Jesus was declared to be the "only begotten of the Father" and of God speaking "my beloved son"- and not "my firstborn".

He was declared to be the "firstborn among the dead" after the resurrection.

firstborn also gives the understanding that there are others to come.

But I don't know everything, so open to viewpoints
Ken, what do you understand these words to mean? Do you think God intentionally words the scriptures equivocally?
Isaiah 47:12,13.
'Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory'.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
I have been listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer arguing that Israel is the firstborn of God. In so doing, he makes the case that Jesus Christ cannot, therefore, be the firstborn of God, and that Christians who hold to such a belief are guilty of 'replacement theology'.

I think he has this wrong, at least in part, and I'd like to explain where I think he is in error.

Here's a passage to lead us in:
Exodus 4:22. 'And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:'

So, 'Israel' is here assumed to be a reference to the children of Israel. Thereafter, Rabbi Singer will make the case that the firstborn son is consistently a reference to the children of Israel, brought together by God, under Moses, and under the Torah.

I would now like to ask, Where is Israel first mentioned in scripture?

Genesis 32:28. 'And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob ['following after, supplanter'], but Israel ['ruling with God']: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed'.

Interestingly, although Jacob 'shall be called no more Jacob', we discover that Jacob, son of Isaac, continues to be called Jacob, but interspersed with 'Israel'. Why is this?

The children of Jacob [Joshua 24:4] have a father, Jacob. Do the 'children of Israel' have a father, Israel? If so, what is the difference between the 'children of Jacob' and the 'children of Israel'?

The reason I make this distinction is because I think it matters. The children are a product of their father. Are the 'children of Israel' the ones who see God 'face to face' [Genesis 32:30]?

Do you think Rabbi Singer's claims about Israel as the 'firstborn son' are legitimate? Is it not possible that 'Israel' 'my firstborn' refers to BOTH head and body, to both Messiah and his followers?
Exodus 4:22 is a reference to Israel as Gods first born nation of people both men and woman who believe and follow Gods Word.

Take Care.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Exodus 4:22 is a reference to Israel as Gods first born nation of people both men and woman who believe and follow Gods Word.

Take Care.
Thanks for the reply.

The question is, Does lsrael follow God's word? If they do, why are the prophets looking forward to a time when they will know God and do his will?

Jeremiah 31:33. 'But this shall be the covenant that l will make with the house of lsrael; After those days, saith the LORD, l will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people'.

To my knowledge, Jeremiah lived and prophesied around 600 BCE. So, his prophecy is pointing to a time future to himself, when a 'new' covenant will come into force. Before the coming of this time lsrael cannot be considered 'his people'.

Can you tell me when Jeremiah's prophecy was fulfilled, or when it is due to be fulfilled?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Ken, what do you understand these words to mean? Do you think God intentionally words the scriptures equivocally?
Isaiah 46:12,13.
'Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory'.
My view, as a Christian:

God always is seeking restoration and relationship - bringing a new heart, a restored love towards people.

I see it as a double meaning by bringing the Moshiach into the picture. Jesus' primary (first) mission was to the Jews (Israel, God's glory). Jesus (the righteous branch) is brought to Israel first and then to the Gentiles. I believe to Israel first because God's intent was for Israel to be priests to the world. Exodus 19:5-6.

Obviously, as a Christian, it is not far off Deut. 30:11 “For this commandment which I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far away. 12 It is not in heaven, that you could say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us and get it for us, and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you could say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us and get it for us and proclaim it to us, so that we may follow it?’ 14 On the contrary, the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may follow it.

For those who believe, it is fulfilled in Yeshua Hamashiach
 
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Bharat Jhunjhunwala

TruthPrevails
I have been listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer arguing that Israel is the firstborn of God. In so doing, he makes the case that Jesus Christ cannot, therefore, be the firstborn of God, and that Christians who hold to such a belief are guilty of 'replacement theology'.

I think he is wrong, at least in part, and I'd like to explain where I think he is in error.

Here's a passage to lead us in:
Exodus 4:22. 'And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:'

So, 'Israel' is here assumed to be a reference to the children of Israel. Thereafter, Rabbi Singer will make the case that the firstborn son is consistently a reference to the children of Israel, brought together by God, under Moses, and under the Torah.

I would now like to ask, Where is Israel first mentioned in scripture?

Genesis 32:28. 'And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob ['following after, supplanter'], but Israel ['ruling with God']: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed'.

Interestingly, although Jacob 'shall be called no more Jacob', we discover that Jacob, son of Isaac, continues to be called Jacob, but interspersed with 'Israel'. Why is this?

The children of Jacob [Joshua 24:4] have a father, Jacob. Do the 'children of Israel' have a father, Israel? If so, what is the difference between the 'children of Jacob' and the 'children of Israel'?

The reason I make this distinction is because I think it matters. The children are a product of their father. Are the 'children of Israel' the ones who see God 'face to face' [Genesis 32:30]?

Do you think Rabbi Singer's claims about Israel as the 'firstborn son' are legitimate? Is it not possible that 'Israel' 'my firstborn' refers to BOTH head and body, to both Messiah and his followers?
The idea that God has a son stands against His being infinity. Why and how could infinity become finite?
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply. The question is, Does lsrael follow God's word? If they do, why are the prophets looking forward to a time when they will know God and do his will? Jeremiah 31:33. 'But this shall be the covenant that l will make with the house of lsrael; After those days, saith the LORD, l will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people'. To my knowledge, Jeremiah lived and prophesied around 600 BCE. So, his prophecy is pointing to a time future to himself, when a 'new' covenant will come into force. Before the coming of this time lsrael cannot be considered 'his people'. Can you tell me when Jeremiah's prophecy was fulfilled, or when it is due to be fulfilled?
For me Jeremiah 31:31-34 is a reference to the New covenant pointing to Jesus (see Hebrews 8:10-12) fulfilled and started at the death and resurrection of Jesus. I personally believe according to the scriptures that Gods' Israel in the new covenant is no longer Israel born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now those who are born of the Spirit of God to believe and follow Gods' Word. For this reason Gods' true Israel are now all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. Unbelieving Jews born of the flesh have been cut out while believing Jews remain and believing gentile believers are grafted in by the blood of Christ who has broken down the middle wall of partition (Ephesians 2:11-15). Therefore Gods' Israel in the new covenant are all those who through faith in Jesus believe and follow His Word. There is now no more Jewish and Gentile believers. We are (believers who believe and follow what Gods' Word says) are all now one in Christ and a part of Gods' commonwealth of Israel through the promises of God in the new covenant. Therefore by believing and following God Word His people will do His will and be His people.

Further supporting scripture references to the above...
  • Ephesians 2:11-14 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.
  • GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.
  • ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
  • ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
  • COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.
  • ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
Gods Israel therefore are now all those who through faith have been born again by the Spirit of God to believe and follow what God's Word says according to Gods new covenant promise to walk in Gods' Spirit (see Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:10-12; John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:4-10; Galatians 5:16).

God bless

PS. The scripture in Exodus 4:22 I believe also has dual application to Jesus (see Matthew 2:15). That is another discussion though.
 
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101G

Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all.
Addressing the OP only. Metaphor, Metaphor, Metaphor. was not God Married to Israel, her, her, HUSBAND? so which is it, son or wife?
and on top of that, did not God divorce Israel? :eek: YIKES!

101G.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The name Israel is an overloaded one that can refer either to the single person (Jacob the son of Isaac, who was given the new name Israel) or to the collective people called the nation of Israel.
Definition of ISRAEL
The meaning is context specific.

You asked if the sons of Jacob and the sons of Israel are the same. The answer is yes. This is clear from the book of Isaiah (Yeshayahu). It contains multiple dualism of the names Jacob/Israel.

Tovia Singer got this one right.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Tovia Singer got this one WRONG,
The Promise was to Abraham SEED, and not Seeds as in many, only ONE, Christ.
Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Galatians 3:17 "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect." Galatians 3:18 "For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."

and he got the replacement Theory Wrong also. because as said above the promise was made in Christ even before the Jews became a Nation, Galatians 3:19 "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator." Galatians 3:20 "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one." Galatians 3:21 "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." Galatians 3:22 "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." Galatians 3:23 "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed." Galatians 3:24 "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, (ONE MIGHT WANT TO READ THAT AGAIN), that we might be justified by faith." Galatians 3:25 "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

this is why we have a NEW COVENANT, for God our Mediator, the Lord Jesus, the Ordinal Last, is out TEACHER and GUIDE in all TRUTH. this is why in Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"Jeremiah 31:32 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:" Jeremiah 31:33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

so another ERROR by the Rabbi. Israel is not to teach other Nations.... that's God, the Lord Jesus job. that's why he is given, or was poured out on Pentecost. for the Holy Spirit is our TEACHER, and GUIDE, that's why he is Called the Spirit of GRACE and SUPPLICATIONS, supportive scripture, Romans 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

that's God our mediator, who is the Lord JESUS, our "advocate", who is the intercessor. for the term "advocate" in the Greek is
G3875 παράκλητος parakletos (pa-ra'-klee-tos) n.
1. (properly) one called near (to give help).
2. an intercessor (one who entreats of behalf of another).
3. a comforter.
[(not given)]
KJV: advocate, comforter

yes, the SEED that was promise Abraham, God himself ..... the ARM of God in Flesh. yes, Jesus who is God, (Spirit), FATHER/OT, the Ordinal First. and God, Jesus "SHARED" Equally in (Flesh), Son/NT, the Ordinal Last.

and God taught us as MAN to MAN, for he is our EXAMPLE. .... Hear ye him.
so, there was never a replacement theory, and the Jews was never a Teacher and Guide to the World..... God is, by dwelling in us.

for we are a Royal Priesthood not of the Levitical Order but of the universal order of Melchisedec, the King of righteousness, (Salem), and the Prince of PEACE, as Isaiah 9:6 states.

so no Replacement Theory, no Jewish teaching, and (those in Christ, Jesus, born again), are his Priest, supportive scripture, 1 Peter 2:9 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

we who is called out of EGYPT in Christ, and again the Rabbi got Matthews wrong also. we are the CHOSEN ONES. for who is a JEW? let's check the record. Romans 2:28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:" Romans 2:29 "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

so the Rabbi has no clue who is God "Son" either.

101G.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It's My Birthday!
I have been listening to Rabbi Tovia Singer arguing that Israel is the firstborn of God. In so doing, he makes the case that Jesus Christ cannot, therefore, be the firstborn of God, and that Christians who hold to such a belief are guilty of 'replacement theology'.

I think he is wrong, at least in part, and I'd like to explain where I think he is in error.

Here's a passage to lead us in:
Exodus 4:22. 'And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:'

So, 'Israel' is here assumed to be a reference to the children of Israel. Thereafter, Rabbi Singer will make the case that the firstborn son is consistently a reference to the children of Israel, brought together by God, under Moses, and under the Torah.

I would now like to ask, Where is Israel first mentioned in scripture?

Genesis 32:28. 'And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob ['following after, supplanter'], but Israel ['ruling with God']: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed'.

Interestingly, although Jacob 'shall be called no more Jacob', we discover that Jacob, son of Isaac, continues to be called Jacob, but interspersed with 'Israel'. Why is this?

The children of Jacob [Joshua 24:4] have a father, Jacob. Do the 'children of Israel' have a father, Israel? If so, what is the difference between the 'children of Jacob' and the 'children of Israel'?

The reason I make this distinction is because I think it matters. The children are a product of their father. Are the 'children of Israel' the ones who see God 'face to face' [Genesis 32:30]?

Do you think Rabbi Singer's claims about Israel as the 'firstborn son' are legitimate? Is it not possible that 'Israel' 'my firstborn' refers to BOTH head and body, to both Messiah and his followers?
You leap ahead to messiah and followers, when you have not adequately dealt with who Israel is.

Israel is a People, B'nei Yisrael (the children of Israel). This people is composed of 12 tribes. They sojourned in Egypt, and became enslaved there. When God sent Moses to free them, Moses refered to them as Israel. Thus, it is this People, all twelve tribes, who are God's first born son.

Now, what the heck? Where do you get messiah out of that? No where.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The idea that God has a son stands against His being infinity. Why and how could infinity become finite?
In our understanding, Paul delineates the "how":

Phil. 2:For he, who had always been God by nature, did not cling to his prerogatives as God’s equal, but stripped himself of all privilege by consenting to be a slave by nature and being born as mortal man. And, having become man, he humbled himself by living a life of utter obedience, even to the extent of dying, and the death he died was the death of a common criminal. That is why God has now lifted him so high, and has given him the name beyond all names, so that at the name of Jesus “every knee shall bow”, whether in Heaven or earth or under the earth. And that is why, in the end, “every tongue shall confess” that Jesus Christ” is the Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

As to why:

IMU, because in Genesis God established the only way to exercise legal authority on the earth is to be or through a man, thus covenants and eventually The Word becoming a man.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The idea that God has a son stands against His being infinity. Why and how could infinity become finite?
The Bible appears to teach that God is both transcendent and immanent. This idea does not appear to cause a problem with the 'oneness' or unity of God.

In the Tanakh, God resides in heaven and the tabernacle, and, later, in Solomon's temple. And, according to the NT, he takes up residence in the living temple of his Son, Jesus Christ.

The formula is express nicely by Paul in Ephesians 4:6, where he says to the Church:
'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ'.

If God, as Spirit, is able to reside in a building made by the hands of men, then surely he can reside in a temple made by his own hand? And if the full measure of the Father's Spirit was in the Son, then both the head and body enjoy the grace. The head receives the full measure, whilst individuals who form the body receive a measure according to their gift, by faith.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
For me Jeremiah 31:31-34 is a reference to the New covenant pointing to Jesus (see Hebrews 8:10-12) fulfilled and started at the death and resurrection of Jesus. I personally believe according to the scriptures that Gods' Israel in the new covenant is no longer Israel born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now those who are born of the Spirit of God to believe and follow Gods' Word. For this reason Gods' true Israel are now all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. Unbelieving Jews born of the flesh have been cut out while believing Jews remain and believing gentile believers are grafted in by the blood of Christ who has broken down the middle wall of partition (Ephesians 2:11-15). Therefore Gods' Israel in the new covenant are all those who through faith in Jesus believe and follow His Word. There is now no more Jewish and Gentile believers. We are (believers who believe and follow what Gods' Word says) are all now one in Christ and a part of Gods' commonwealth of Israel through the promises of God in the new covenant. Therefore by believing and following God Word His people will do His will and be His people.

Further supporting scripture references to the above...
  • Ephesians 2:11-14 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.
  • GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.
  • ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
  • ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
  • COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.
  • ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
Gods Israel therefore are now all those who through faith have been born again by the Spirit of God to believe and follow what God's Word says according to Gods new covenant promise to walk in Gods' Spirit (see Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:10-12; John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:4-10; Galatians 5:16).

God bless

PS. The scripture in Exodus 4:22 I believe also has dual application to Jesus (see Matthew 2:15). That is another discussion though.
I go along with everything you say in your post, with regard to the Church, the body of Christ.

In Romans 11, however, Paul asks the question, Hath God cast away his people? The rhetorical reply is, God forbid!

In Romans 11:25,26, he adds, 'For l would not , brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to lsrael until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all lsrael shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:'

So, whilst 'replacement theology' appears to work within the Church age, it is not a complete replacement. Israel (of old), it appears, still has a role to play in God's plan.

Do you agree?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
You leap ahead to messiah and followers, when you have not adequately dealt with who Israel is.

Israel is a People, B'nei Yisrael (the children of Israel). This people is composed of 12 tribes. They sojourned in Egypt, and became enslaved there. When God sent Moses to free them, Moses refered to them as Israel. Thus, it is this People, all twelve tribes, who are God's first born son.

Now, what the heck? Where do you get messiah out of that? No where.
When God created, in the beginning, he created both heaven and earth. Heaven is spiritual and eternal, and earth is temporal. This is God's parable of life.

When one applies this parable to Hebrew scripture, it becomes apparent that all scripture is written with double meaning. That's why so many passages are ambiguous and equivocal. It's because, in every story, there is a figure or type of Christ.

Israel, as an assembly of tribes, is God's temporal nation. Yet, in Christ, lsrael becomes an everlasting spiritual temple.

From your understanding of the Tanakh, do you think all lsrael will be saved, or just a remnant?
 

101G

Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all,
what many are missing is this. God is a Spirit. listen real Good, "THE FLESH PROFIT NOTHING". so Israel in the flesh cannot please God. supportive scripture. Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:", (one might want to read that AGAIN). Romans 9:7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called." Romans 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

one might want to read that verse 8 again. fleshly Israel is not the Children. this is why we all..... Jews and Gentiles must be BORN AGAIN, not according to the flesh ...... Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. but be born of the Spiriot, hence the reason why God seek thos who will worship him in "Spirit and in TRUTH.

Now, which covenant are "U" under, the fleshly covenant, that has been done away with? are "U" under the New Covenant that is with the HOUSE and not the tribes. of Israel. which include Jews and Gentiles.
hear ye, hear ye, the New Covenant is not, I repeat, is not with any TRIBE, but A HOUSE of God which he is still adding to daily. better known as the CHURCH.
supportive scripture, Ephesians 2:15 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" Ephesians 2:16 "And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:" Ephesians 2:17 "And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh." Ephesians 2:18 "For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." Ephesians 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;" (THERE IT IS HOUSE ... HOLD, NOT TRIBS), Ephesians 2:20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" Ephesians 2:21 "In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:" (THIS IS THE THIRD TEMPLE, NOT MADE WITH HUMAN HANDS, BUT HANDS ETERNAL), Ephesians 2:22 "In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

understand, this is not a Jewish thing that God is Doing, but A HUMAN THING, that God is doing. and it's Spiritual in NATURE.

Romans 8:15 "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." Romans 8:16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"

now, if one want to KNOW who the TRUE CHILDREN of God is? they are neither male, nor female, Jew or Greek/Gentile, they are also neither bond nor free. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3:28 and 29.

101G.
 
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