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Islam and UU

Ciscokid

Well-Known Member
I have been thinking about something for a while now and wish to have other thoughts and opinions. One can make a case that the religion of Islam is one that supports terrorism and killing non-believers.

If this is true, If a case can be made then should Muslims be allowed to join UU churches?

I remember there being a thread a while back which talked about the fact that not everyone belongs in a UU church. Those who are racist, untolerant, look down upon those of a different sex, religion or nationality etc are not welcome in a UU church.

I have been told that peaceful Muslims are not "pure" or "orthodox" Muslims...meaning they are not obeying the Koran when it comes to defeating the infidels etc.

What are your thoughts?
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Whoa... I will have to think on this, but my first reaction is that you have been told incorrectly about what it means to be Muslim.

I will get back to you on more.
 

Ciscokid

Well-Known Member
Maize said:
Whoa... I will have to think on this, but my first reaction is that you have been told incorrectly about what it means to be Muslim.

I will get back to you on more.
Thanks Maize! I know this is a deep topic and is probably hard to truly cover. I would love a Muslim to join in and give their input.

I think one of the questions that this discussion will hinge on is "Are peaceful Muslims, obedient Muslims?"

Note: I'm not pretending to have the answer, I'm searching for it.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Islam means submission. Many muslims are pacifists. As far as UU goes it is a meathod of study not a religion. There is no doctrine, no dogma no specific God to worship. This means pretty much anybody who is tolerant can be UU. If an indivdual supported religious wars and killing to appease a God he/she would not be UU materal irrgardless of which God he or she is following. By virtue of the prinples and purposes the fit would not be good. Furthermore, as UU's it is important for us to understand Islam as a faith and realize that most, almost all of its members are not cold-blooded killers but the same regular joe's and janes you find in any other faith. Religions don't produce killers nearly as much as killers practice religion.

footnote:
http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
Whoa, too.

I promise I will post here, as UU Muslim, when I am not, you know, being flung from country to country.

Thanks Maize! I know this is a deep topic and is probably hard to truly cover. I would love a Muslim to join in and give their input.

I think one of the questions that this discussion will hinge on is "Are peaceful Muslims, obedient Muslims?"

Note: I'm not pretending to have the answer, I'm searching for it.
I will do in a week or two.
 

Ciscokid

Well-Known Member
jamaesi said:
Whoa, too.

I promise I will post here, as UU Muslim, when I am not, you know, being flung from country to country.


I will do in a week or two.
Thank you Jamaesi. I hope I did not offend. I am trying to learn what it means to be a Muslim and in this day in age there are many opinions. I'm trying to find truth ;)
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
I've been trying to figure out how to proceed with this discussion without getting into a debate about Islam or what it means to be Muslim, which would be against the rules for an IR forum. Having said that I will state that it is my opinion that there is nothing anymore violent in the Qur'an than what you will find in the Bible. But whereas most Christians see the violence in the Bible as just a story or something that happened a long time ago, but isn't how things should be now - in Islam there is a large movement towards fundamentalism. There are many factors for this, of which I'm not going to try to get into.

Do I think Islam requires its followers to be violent? No, I do not. Some will disagree with me. But just as we see Christians do not all hold the same beliefs about everything, Muslims are divided as well. All of the Muslims I have met in person were people who just wanted to be the best person they could, who loved peace and freedom, and who genuinely respected others right to do the same within their own belief systems. I will be a PollyAnna and look for the good in the religion, judging it for what good I see done and not those who would seek to do evil acts and then try to blame it on their religion. So, just as I would not condemn all Christians or Christianity because a few blow up an Abortion clinic or a gay bar, I do not judge Islam on the acts of terrorists who just happen to be Muslim.

In our efforts to understand Islam, it would be a mistake to see it as simply a religious practice, one layer among many layers of a culture. For Muslims, as in few other faith traditions, religion is a way of life, and followers of Allah were meant to build a community, or ummah, based on justice, equity, and compassion: a principle that will sound familiar to Unitarian Universalists. For that reason, I think we should be reaching out to our Muslim brothers and sisters, we have our differences, but one thing UUs are good about is looking past the differences and focusing on what we have in common.

Cisco, for more information on Islam, I would suggest Islam: A Short History by Karen Armstrong. Armstrong traces the development of Islam from Muhammad through the eventual split between the Sunni and Shiite Muslim sects, the growth of Sufi mysticism, and the spread of Islam out of Arabia and into other parts of the world. She explains the importance of Sharia, or Islamic sacred laws, and their importance to the entire community. These laws are derived from the Qur'an, Islam's sacred scriptures; the sunnah, (customs of the Prophet Muhammad himself and regarded as the Islamic ideal); and the ahadith, or the documented teachings of the Prophet as recorded by friends and observers. The Sharia, properly observed by Muslims, was believed to "create a counter culture that would transform . . . corrupt political order . . . and make it submit to God's will."

Such context is vital for a Western understanding of contemporary Islamic fundamentalism, which Armstrong discusses in the last third of her book. Thankfully, she begins not by singling out such extremism as unique to the Muslim world but by drawing a portrait of the common values of fundamentalisms across religious lines — their critical stance toward democracy and secularism, their regressive treatment of women, their shared qualities of fear and their "deep disappointment and disenchantment with the modern experiment." Most importantly, she writes that fundamentalisms of all kinds are "essentially rebellions against the secularist exclusion of the divine from public life, and a frequently desperate attempt to make spiritual values prevail in the modern world. But the desperation and fear that fuel fundamentalists also tend to distort the religious tradition, and accentuate its more aggressive aspects . . . . Muslims are in tune with fundamentalists in other faiths all over the world, who share their profound misgivings about modern secular culture."

Commentary on the book from UUWorld.

I found a sermon from Lilithu's church on UU and Islam by
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rev. Mark Morrison-Reed. He claims that:[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]it is time to recognize that not only are we historically connected but that we share some common values as well. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is what every person of Islamic background needs to hear us proclaim. What are these values? The oneness of God, that invisible creative force that undergirds existence; religious tolerance; and compassion for the poor. We should resonate strongly with this latter concern, for our own Purposes and Principles called for "justice, equity, and compassion in human relations." Again this mirrors the Qur'an: " ...they are righteous who ... donate goods and money for the love of God to relatives and orphans, and to the poor and the wayfarer and to the needy and for freeing slaves; And who are constant in prayer and give alms for welfare." Justice and compassion are central themes in the Qur'an, and being a doctrinal faith it requires that those who can give annually one-fortieth of their assets. Our colleague, Abhi Janamanchi, who has helped me to develop my thoughts about Islam, wrote, "I have yet to find another religious document other than the Qur'an that takes a praxis oriented approach to social justice which I feel Unitarian Universalism can learn from."[/font]

So, no I do not think that we should be turning away Muslims from our churches. In fact, we should be doing the opposite, we should be seeking them out and starting conversations with them in the spirit of understanding and education.

p.s. I changed the title of the thread, I hope you don't mind. ;)

 

Ciscokid

Well-Known Member
Thank you so much Maize. I am very interested in the resources you suggested and I plan to dig into it as time permits. I have to admit that I do not know much about the Islamic faith and in modern times it is easy to get a misunderstanding of what the religion is all about.

I hope I did not offend our Muslim friends...I beg for apology if I did. It's so easy to get misinformed especially about the Islamic faith and even moreso here in America.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
Cisco, you're welcome. I think we would benefit from more education about Islam. It is my hope that our churches would be a welcome place to do this among ourselves and our alongside Muslim friends.
 

Nozem

Member
I am pleased that Cisco has started this thread. Here in the UK the events of 7th July 2005 have made us aware that there is a danger from a small number of Islamic fundamentalists who are committed to acts of horrific violence. One can focus on the terrorists, the people who have aided them, and those who justify them. Yet there were many Muslim organisations and individuals who were horrified by the bombings and made this clear, there were Muslims who were casualties of the bombings, and there were Muslims in emergency services and health service who did their utmost to assist those who were suffering whatever their background. I think that is important for Unitarians in Britain to have no illusions concerning the risk to our safety and security from a tiny demented band of extremists but also to ensure that we help to realise that Muslims generally are appreciated as being part of our society in 2006. Ideas on how we can do this are welcome.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
We had a Muslim speaker at our church a couple Sunday's ago. He talked about why he loves Islam and the ways UU and Islam is similar and different. But I think most importantly he talked about how we should be reaching out to each other UUs and Muslims in this culture of extremism.
 

Ciscokid

Well-Known Member
Maize said:
We had a Muslim speaker at our church a couple Sunday's ago. He talked about why he loves Islam and the ways UU and Islam is similar and different. But I think most importantly he talked about how we should be reaching out to each other UUs and Muslims in this culture of extremism.
What were some of his suggestions? To be candid, I think the Islamic community [the positive portion] needs to be louder than hell about how they feel. I think the Islamic community should be [if they're not already] putting together humanitarian aid and resources to help those who have been victims of terrorism.

I normally would frown upon self recognition of charity, but in the case I think it would be good to subtly inform people of how "real" Muslims feel.

Right now as it stands...I honestly believe there are "good" Muslims....but I get the impression that they have no vocal leader(s).

From what I've seen, UU's are proud of their "stop talking and take action" attitude. What ACTION is the Muslim community taking? The idle statements like "We do not condone the violent actions of the terrorists" don't cut it.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
He said that "real" Muslims need to be educating other Muslims about what it means it be Muslim. That violence of any kind is not on the menu. "Let there be no compulsion in religion." He also stressed that interfaith dialogues between religions who may not believe the same but all want peace is essential to bringing about peace.

I'm sure he has more thoughts and ideas on how to change the perception of Islam from not only the outside but the inside as well, but this was not the main topic of the discussion and only mentioned the above when asked a question about how he felt about what was going on in the Muslim world.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Ciscokid said:
I have been thinking about something for a while now and wish to have other thoughts and opinions. One can make a case that the religion of Islam is one that supports terrorism and killing non-believers.

If this is true, If a case can be made then should Muslims be allowed to join UU churches?
It's not true.


Ciscokid said:
I have been told that peaceful Muslims are not "pure" or "orthodox" Muslims...meaning they are not obeying the Koran when it comes to defeating the infidels etc.
And why do you think that these people have more authority than the peaceful Muslims?
 
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