Islam and Science

[Orthodox]

My point was that there are plenty of things to suggest that the Qur'an is not divinely inspired (I can elaborate on this if you like - I've spent considerable time studying it). These things are generally scientific in nature and well substantiated enough to lend me the confidence I need to declare the Qur'an a book without divine inspiration.

The most obvious of these things would be a divergence between the Qur'anic and the scientific explanations for a particular natural phenomenon. A good example of this type of divergence is the explanation of the production of semen found in sura 86:5-7. In this verse semen is said to be produced in an area found between the ribs and the backbone (i.e. the upper chest). Science declares semen production to be conducted in the testicles. The ribs in a human being end above the stomach and well above the testicles putting the Qur'an off by roughly a foot (depending on a particular man's body size). Who is right? I hazard a guess that most people would side with science on this one - wouldn't you?

I'm not claiming to know absolute truth about the universe as you seem to imply. I am however claiming to be almsot certainly right about things like the example I gave above. It goes hand in hand with an assertion of this kind that the Qur'an is almost certainly wrong. Given that the record shows that the Qur'an is almost certianly wrong on a number of different issues I believe it to be a work of fiction made up by Muhammed. I don't need to know everything about the universe to say this - I only need to know enough about things dealt with by both science and the Qur'an.

When I spoke about peoples discomfort with the truth I was talking about how when facts and objective reasoning enter a discussion or debate a religious believer will often hastily abandon the posture of an apologist and adopt that of someone who holds that belief and faith revolve solely around factually un-moored opinions and 'persepctives' totally unassualtable to reason and argument.

 

[neves]

My point was that there are plenty of things to suggest that the Qur'an is not divinely inspired (I can elaborate on this if you like - I've spent considerable time studying it). These things are generally scientific in nature and well substantiated enough to lend me the confidence I need to declare the Qur'an a book without divine inspiration.

The most obvious of these things would be a divergence between the Qur'anic and the scientific explanations for a particular natural phenomenon. A good example of this type of divergence is the explanation of the production of semen found in sura 86:5-7. In this verse semen is said to be produced in an area found between the ribs and the backbone (i.e. the upper chest). Science declares semen production to be conducted in the testicles. The ribs in a human being end above the stomach and well above the testicles putting the Qur'an off by roughly a foot (depending on a particular man's body size). Who is right? I hazard a guess that most people would side with science on this one - wouldn't you?

I'm not claiming to know absolute truth about the universe as you seem to imply. I am however claiming to be almsot certainly right about things like the example I gave above. It goes hand in hand with an assertion of this kind that the Qur'an is almost certainly wrong. Given that the record shows that the Qur'an is almost certianly wrong on a number of different issues I believe it to be a work of fiction made up by Muhammed. I don't need to know everything about the universe to say this - I only need to know enough about things dealt with by both science and the Qur'an.

When I spoke about peoples discomfort with the truth I was talking about how when facts and objective reasoning enter a discussion or debate a religious believer will often hastily abandon the posture of an apologist and adopt that of someone who holds that belief and faith revolve solely around factually un-moored opinions and 'persepctives' totally unassualtable to reason and argument.

Ahh, now we are talking about facts… Something to discuss… and what better then facts…

Okay let’s look at the verses in question…

Sura At-Tariq (chapter 86)

“In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. By the heaven and the Morning Star (1) - Ah, what will tell thee what the Morning Star is! (2) - The piercing Star! (3) No human soul but hath a guardian over it. (4) So let man consider from what he is created. (5) He is created from a gushing fluid (6) That issued from between the loins and ribs. (7) Lo! He verily is Able to return him (unto life) (8) On the day when hidden thoughts shall be searched out. (9) Then will he have no might nor any helper. (10) By the heaven which giveth the returning rain, (11) And the earth which splitteth (with the growth of trees and plants) (12) Lo! this (Qur'an) is a conclusive word, (13) It is no pleasantry. (14) Lo! they plot a plot (against thee, O Muhammad) (15) And I plot a plot (against them). (16) So give a respite to the disbelievers. Deal thou gently with them for a while. (17)”

Okay we can clearly see this verse (6) is not talking about production of semen… rather it is noticeably talking about ejaculation… okay if we can get past that… let look at the location that is illustrated… put one of your finger on the lowest rib in front of you body, after put another on either the backbone or the loin area (doesn’t really matter)… now draw an imaginary line between the fingers with your head… if you body is anatomically correct… then the line would draw through your abdominal area and not your upper chest… okay hopefully we can agree there…

http://www.besthealth.com/besthealth/bodyguide/reftext/html/repr_sys_fin.html

“The vas deferens is the dilated continuation of the epididymis. The vas deferens travels out of the scrotum and into the abdomen (gut cavity) through the inguinal canal. Once in the abdomen, the vas deferens passes behind the urinary bladder and expands to form an ampulla (expanded end part). Each ampulla joins with a seminal vesicle (an accessory gland) to form an ejaculatory duct. The vas deferens is the main sperm carrier. Its walls contain three layers of smooth muscle innervated by sympathetic nerves. Stimulation of these nerves propels sperm into the ejaculatory ducts. Here, the ampulla of the vas deferens and seminal vesicles meet and secretions from the seminal vesicles and sperm are stored. From this junction, the ejaculatory ducts pass through the prostate gland, where they receive more secretions, then join with the single urethra (tube through which sperm and urine pass out of body).”

1400 years ago, even doctors thought semen springs from the testicles during ejaculation… they were wrong of course… Recent discoveries have proven them wrong…

I know… that’s not enough science for some… let me try harder… let’s just say those verses where talking about semen production and not ejaculation… just for argument sake…

The semen contains many things… between 61 to 98% of it consists of fructose, prostaglandin hormones, metal and salt ions, lipids, steroid hormones, enzymes, basic amines, and amino acids… all those are produced from the glands located in abdomen...only between 2 to 5% of it consists of the sperms produced in the testicles and the epididymes.

For more information you can look here… or any appropriate book at your local library…

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/menshealth/facts/semenandsperm.htm

I hope, at the least that was informational…

 

[yossarian22]

I can call Moby Dick a book of god by intepreting parts of it however i want. Until i see something along the lines of The speed of light is 300,000,000 m/s or something equivalent directly stated, this is all just interpretation

 

[neves]

Sura An-Nahl (Chapter 16) (Note: not whole sura just 5 lines before and after relative verses)

“And they assign unto Allah that which they (themselves) dislike, and their tongues expound the lie that the better portion will be theirs. Assuredly theirs will be the Fire, and they will be abandoned. (62) By Allah, We verily sent messengers unto the nations before thee, but the devil made their deeds fairseeming unto them. So he is their patron this day, and theirs will be a painful doom. (63) And We have revealed the Scripture unto thee only that thou mayst explain unto them that wherein they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe. (64) Allah sendeth down water from the sky and therewith reviveth the earth after her death. Lo! herein is indeed a portent for a folk who hear. (65) And lo! in the cattle there is a lesson for you. We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies, from betwixt the refuse and the blood, pure milk palatable to the drinkers. (66) And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence ye derive strong drink and (also) good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for people who have sense. (67) And thy Lord inspired the bee, saying: Choose thou habitations in the hills and in the trees and in that which they thatch; (68) Then eat of all fruits, and follow the ways of thy Lord, made smooth (for thee). There cometh forth from their bellies a drink divers of hues, wherein is healing for mankind. Lo! herein is indeed a portent for people who reflect. (69) And Allah createth you, then causeth you to die, and among you is he who is brought back to the most abject stage of life, so that he knoweth nothing after (having had) knowledge. Lo! Allah is Knower, Powerful. (70) And Allah hath favoured some of you above others in provision. Now those who are more favoured will by no means hand over their provision to those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, so that they may be equal with them in respect thereof. Is it then the grace of Allah that they deny? (71) And Allah hath given you wives of your own kind, and hath given you, from your wives, sons and grandsons, and hath made provision of good things for you. Is it then in vanity that they believe and in the grace of Allah that they disbelieve? (72) And they worship beside Allah that which owneth no provision whatsoever for them from the heavens or the earth, nor have they (whom they worship) any power. (73)”

In recent years, scientific support is beginning to emerge confirming the beneficial effects of honey on certain medical and surgical conditions...

“Historically, honey has been used as a folk remedy in cultures around the world for millennia. It has been prescribed informally as a cure for smallpox, baldness, eye diseases, and indigestion. It’s even been used as a contraceptive. As with most natural “cures” unsupported by scientific studies, I sort of chuckle and sigh when I read about things like this—honey may be a silly substitute for real medicine, but at least it’s not bloodletting. However, in this case, the bees may have the last laugh. It turns out that honey’s properties make it a surprisingly effective cure-all. Or, let’s say, cure-much.”

Honey as Medicine: Interesting Thing of the Day

The miraculous beneficial properties of honey, so beautifully expressed in the holy Qur'an…

 

[Popeyesays]

Classical Islam was very scientifically oriented. That ha't years or sobeen the case for about five hundred .

Regards,
Scott

 

[goraya15]

Classical Islam was very scientifically oriented. That ha't years or sobeen the case for about five hundred .

Regards,
Scott

Not true. Islam is an eternal religion for all time and peoples, and what's a God if he can't prove himself...

Chapter 21 (Al-Anbiya'): Verse 31
Do not the disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed up-mass, then We opened them out? And We made of water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Now, this seems to me an awful lot like the big bang theory, which was only first even proposed about 100 years, and only started to gain credit a couple of decades ago. Likewise, the same with the concept about making every living thing from water.

How could a man, 1400 years ago, with no scientific background, even begin to imagine such a concept that the whole universe was a single mass body at the beginning of time, which exploded, or opened out to make the known universe? Seems a lot like something only a Higher Power would know...

 

[dorsk188]

It seems that Islam (which has the distinction of being the latest of the three major abrahamic faiths) was originally very open to scientific advancement. For whatever reason, islam is currently in the same position that christianity was in the dark ages. New advances that were once interpretted as evidence of god's majesty are seen as threatening the faith, rather than strengthening it.

On the other hand, moderate christianity seems to have struck a balance and compartmentalized the two realms of faith and everything else. This occurred long ago with jews, as well. It seems to be the inevitable course of religion and science. Eventually, you must take your religion out of your science. The way I see it: islam stopped doing research when they started to get answers they didn't like.

Unfortunately, whenever religions approach that level of compartmentalization, it seems inevitably to schism. Mainstream vs. Evangelical. Reform vs. Orthodox. But what's to be done with those sects that hate science because they might get an answer they don't like? Who was the last evangelical researcher of consequence? Or orthodox jewish scientist? Will islam divide along similar lines? (Has it? I am not as informed as I should be on such matters.) It seems every islamic voice on this forum continues to believe that science supports their faith (and if it doesn't, it's not science). This is the evangelical christian view, as well... Is there a truly secular pro-science branch of islam? (The secular is important, it seems.)

I'm just typing thoughts here...

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Im sorry, but this just set me of. INDIA made those discovories!

Aryabhatt - Wikipedia.

Arabs acted as a passage. They came to India, and STOLE those discovories from India and claimed them too be their own!

Aryabhata's work was of great influence in the Indian astronomical tradition, and influenced several neighbouring cultures through translations. The Arabic translation during the Islamic Golden Age (ca. 820), was particularly influential. Some of his results are cited by Al-Khwarizmi, and he is referred to by the 10th century Arabic scholar Al-Biruni, who states that Āryabhata's followers believed the Earth to rotate on its axis..

India made these discovories. They were stolen and hence are always considered a naation of poverty and stupidity. There are so many Indian geniuses. Arabs got nothing done on their own, they did with India, even then, they took it.

 

[neves]

Im sorry, but this just set me of. INDIA made those discovories!

Aryabhatt - Wikipedia.

Arabs acted as a passage. They came to India, and STOLE those discovories from India and claimed them too be their own!

Aryabhata's work was of great influence in the Indian astronomical tradition, and influenced several neighbouring cultures through translations. The Arabic translation during the Islamic Golden Age (ca. 820), was particularly influential. Some of his results are cited by Al-Khwarizmi, and he is referred to by the 10th century Arabic scholar Al-Biruni, who states that Āryabhata's followers believed the Earth to rotate on its axis..

India made these discovories. They were stolen and hence are always considered a naation of poverty and stupidity. There are so many Indian geniuses. Arabs got nothing done on their own, they did with India, even then, they took it.

What gave you the idea that all Muslims are Arab?

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Most are, aren't they? Saudi Arabia? Iraq, Iran. ALL those other countries in the middle east.

Thats why it is called The Islamic Golden Age.

 

[neves]

Before you go around flaunting your unawareness… go do some research on culture of Iran and Iraq… Do you really consider the Middle East an all Arab region?

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Before you go around flaunting your unawareness… go do some research on culture of Iran and Iraq… Do you really consider the Middle East an all Arab region?

Yep...


Iran...Islamic nation, YES, Ahmedinejad is muslim, mad one too. Iraq is muslim, if you can see that, then i am afraid...

 

[YmirGF]

While anecdotes of these supposed "miracles" are amusing it might be a better use of ones time discerning when and why scientific thought became divorced from Islamic critical thinking. Now, if these "miracels" were discovered as a RESULT of the passages found in the Noble Qur'an, one may be slightly impressed by that information. To date, no discovery cites the Qur'an as the source of the information "discovered" and so claims of "evidence" found within the pages of the Qur'an (or any other religious text) are paper thin. Such hypothesies only serve to show the poor scientific training of the writers and are in no way convincing to anyone but those who already believe.

It is also my esteemed opinion that the Muslim concept of "scholarship" is in itself highly distorted (and suspect) wherein the deep-seated belief in "scholarship" adds its own merit thereby reinforcing the very words of the clerics while stifling the thoughts of those who are not proficient at those schools of thought. Though exhorted to make ones own conclusions Islam by default chooses to guide all thinking through the narrow lens of Islamic logic and contemptuously derides any opinion contrary to that of widely accepted cleric's opinion.

 

[neves]

Yep...


Iran...Islamic nation, YES, Ahmedinejad is muslim, mad one too. Iraq is muslim, if you can see that, then i am afraid...

Please reread the question posted above...

 

[neves]

While anecdotes of these supposed "miracles" are amusing it might be a better use of ones time discerning when and why scientific thought became divorced from Islamic critical thinking. Now, if these "miracels" were discovered as a RESULT of the passages found in the Noble Qur'an, one may be slightly impressed by that information. To date, no discovery cites the Qur'an as the source of the information "discovered" and so claims of "evidence" found within the pages of the Qur'an (or any other religious text) are paper thin. Such hypothesies only serve to show the poor scientific training of the writers and are in no way convincing to anyone but those who already believe.

It is also my esteemed opinion that the Muslim concept of "scholarship" is in itself highly distorted (and suspect) wherein the deep-seated belief in "scholarship" adds its own merit thereby reinforcing the very words of the clerics while stifling the thoughts of those who are not proficient at those schools of thought. Though exhorted to make ones own conclusions Islam by default chooses to guide all thinking through the narrow lens of Islamic logic and contemptuously derides any opinion contrary to that of widely accepted cleric's opinion.

I think your concept of the Qu’ran as a means of reaffirmation rather than spoon feeding ones beliefs is very accurate… If you don’t have a drop of belief, then the Qu'ran will be just another cold stone…

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Please reread the question posted above...

I just did, and i just did.

 

[Grappleberry Punch]

Psst----Penguino

Fewer than 15% of Muslims are Arab and Iran is only about 3% Arab...Iraq is like 80% Arab. I think that's what neves is talking about.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

I knew i was gettignn SOMETHING wrong. well, sorry nevea.

 

[~Amin~]

Now, if these "miracels" were discovered as a RESULT of the passages found in the Noble Qur'an, one may be slightly impressed by that information. To date, no discovery cites the Qur'an as the source of the information "discovered" and so claims of "evidence" found within the pages of the Qur'an (or any other religious text) are paper thin.

Rather, they have denied that which they
ENCOMPASS not in knowledge and whose
interpretation has not yet come to them. Qur'an10,39.
All were saying Ymir is that there were certain things which
would not have been ENCOMPASSED by any human at that time as fact,
which has been proven in this RF,as time moves on the Qur'an gets younger
the meaning of certain verses are understood through technology and science,
even if there were statements taken out of the Qur'an and then used in science you still wouldn't believe, unless God wills.

Though exhorted to make ones own conclusions Islam by default chooses to guide all thinking through the narrow lens of Islamic logic and contemptuously derides any opinion contrary to that of widely accepted cleric's opinion.

The Qur'an is NEVER limited to a particular cleric's opinion.