• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Isaiah 61: The question of fulfilment.

Tumah

Veteran Member
So you think God wants more shepherds? Why then does he explicitly say that he will 'set up one shepherd' over the flock? Why does he say that the shepherd will be 'my servant David'?
That's not what I said. I said that the problem that G-d explains He has with the other shepherds, is not that they are shepherding, but that they are shepherding badly.
You said
God calls the leaders of the flock 'shepherds', but he rejects these 'shepherds'. God doesn't want the 'shepherds' to lead the flock. He wants only the SHEPHERD to lead the flock.
I am saying,
It don't say that.

Tumah, you told me not long ago that you believed that the LORD was your SHEPHERD (Psalm 23). Are you now saying that the Lord is no longer your shepherd? Have the shepherds replaced the shepherd?
Can you provide the post where I said that G-d wasn't my shepherd?

Can you also provide the verse that states there can only be one shepherd at a time? Here is my verse indicating this is not true:
Ez. 34:2 "Son of man, prophecy about the shepherds of Israel, prophecy and say to them, to the shepherds..."
In fact, the chapter indicates that Israel has multiple shepherds at the same time, one of whom is G-d. In the verse above, G-d speaks about some shepherds of Israel. Later on in the same chapter G-d gives a parable about how He is like a shepherd and refers to Israel as His flock. Clearly, the author sees no contradiction between G-d being the Shepherd of Israel at the same time that others are also shepherding Israel. A Joint Shepherding Initiative.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
A Joint Shepherding Initiative.

It sounds good.
In fact, Jeremiah seems to be saying something along those lines. Jeremiah 23:1- 6
'Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. [2] Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. [3] And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. [4] And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD. [5] Behold the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name, whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.'

This passage does, as you say, mention shepherds that will feed the flock. These shepherds do not appear until after the Lord gathers the remnant 'out of all countries'. Do you think this has happened already, or is it still future?
If Judah is only saved in the days of the righteous Branch, and Israel only dwells safely at that time, then surely this is also the time that the shepherds 'shall feed them'?
Why, also, is there a distinction made between 'Judah' and 'Israel'? Is it because Israel is saved, but Judah is not?

One other thing. You mentioned that references to Israel could be both male and female. If Israel is a reference to both head and body then this would be appropriate. The head is the groom, and the body is the bride.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
It sounds good.
In fact, Jeremiah seems to be saying something along those lines. Jeremiah 23:1- 6
'Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. [2] Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. [3] And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. [4] And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD. [5] Behold the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name, whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.'
Seems pretty similar.

This passage does, as you say, mention shepherds that will feed the flock. These shepherds do not appear until after the Lord gathers the remnant 'out of all countries'. Do you think this has happened already, or is it still future?
Only half the world Jewish population is in Israel. So I will say that it has not yet happened.
If Judah is only saved in the days of the righteous Branch, and Israel only dwells safely at that time, then surely this is also the time that the shepherds 'shall feed them'?
Ok.
Why, also, is there a distinction made between 'Judah' and 'Israel'? Is it because Israel is saved, but Judah is not?
Being saved and dwelling securely means the same thing. The prophets often break up the nation into Israel and Judah because they are speaking to both kingdoms that existed during their time.

One other thing. You mentioned that references to Israel could be both male and female. If Israel is a reference to both head and body then this would be appropriate. The head is the groom, and the body is the bride.
The word "ראש - head" and the word "גוף - body" are both masculine words in Hebrew.
There is no reason to create a link between the head/body and a bride/groom. There is reason not to do so. A bride and groom metaphor would generally make more sense with two things that were brought together at some point. A head and body were never separate.
 

Rakovsky

Active Member
Not everyone who G-d rests His spirit on, is the messiah. In fact, Isaiah 42, is not talking about the messiah, but the nation of Israel.



Isaiah 42 is talking about Israel. Although it is obviously G-d who sets the judgments, He does so through the Jews
FWIW, I found Jewish rabbis saying Isaiah 42 is Messianic and wrote about it here:
Why should one believe that something the TaNaKh predicts would actually literally occur?
I think you are quite smart and have serious knowledge about Judaism and appreciate your comments to me in that thread.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member

MHz

Member
In Luke 4, Jesus reads from Isaiah 61 in the synagogue in Nazareth, and ignites the anger of the locals. This could not have occurred unless the passage was assumed to refer to the coming Messiah, Yet, on this site, most Jews seem to consider the reference in verse 1 of Ch.61 'The spirit of the LORD GOD is upon me' to be to the prophet whose name is attached to the book - Isaiah himself.
Is this a reasonable conclusion?

Isa:61:8:
For I the LORD love judgment,
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
and I will direct their work in truth,
and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

Isaiah was writing down what Christ was saying to him and the manifestation of those words begins on the day the 7th trump sounds. The selection below is also Christ speaking (about His witness of creation) and the Scribe was merely recording it rather than the words were from any of the 40 Scribes God used in the writing of the Bible.

Heb:8:6-10:
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry,
by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant,
which was established upon better promises.
For if that first covenant had been faultless,
then should no place have been sought for the second.
For finding fault with them,
he saith,
Behold,
the days come,
saith the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;
because they continued not in my covenant,
and I regarded them not,
saith the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,
saith the Lord;
I will put my laws into their mind,
and write them in their hearts:
and I will be to them a God,
and they shall be to me a people:


Proverb:8:22-36:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning,
or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths,
I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth,
nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens,
I was there:
when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above:
when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass his commandment:
when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him,
as one brought up with him:
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now therefore hearken unto me,
O ye children:
for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Hear instruction,
and be wise,
and refuse it not.
Blessed is the man that heareth me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
For whoso findeth me findeth life,
and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul:
all they that hate me love death.
 
Top