Isaiah 53 and Human Sin

[101G]

You make a couple of mistakes here:
1. The text of Isaiah doesn't actually have chapters -- they are a relatively recent and Christian insertion. so
2. Israel is explicitly identified as the servant 7 times throughout the book as a whole
3. The servant is never identified in the text as anyone else so any interpretation you make has to be an innovation, not native to the work

correct, as well as here in chapter 53. see post #652 and #653.

101G.

 

[101G]

rosends is correct as to who the suffering servant is, the Christ which is not only throughout the book of Isaiah, but the many book of the OT, the Tanka. just as the Holy Ghost via his apostle Paul said, Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

so all was written about God coming in flesh and dying for our sins. and rising from the dead to establish an EVERLASTING COVENANT, or a "BINDING" Covenant that cannot be broken by us who are in Christ Jesus, nor by God himself, Lord Jesus.

101G

 

[rosends]

rosends is correct as to who the suffering servant is, the Christ which is not only throughout the book of Isaiah, but the many book of the OT, the Tanka. just as the Holy Ghost via his apostle Paul said, Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

so all was written about God coming in flesh and dying for our sins. and rising from the dead to establish an EVERLASTING COVENANT, or a "BINDING" Covenant that cannot be broken by us who are in Christ Jesus, nor by God himself, Lord Jesus.

101G

Are you really that ill equipped to discuss your beliefs that you have to misrepresent what I said in order to support your ideas?

I wrote (and you quoted), "Israel is explicitly identified as the servant 7 times throughout the book as a whole"

and you wrote, "rosends is correct as to who the suffering servant is"

and then said "the Christ which is not only throughout the book of Isaiah" which is not at all what I said.

That's dishonest and it typifies your methodology. If you feel the need to respond, don't rush -- I can wait while you look up the difficult words.

 

[101G]

Are you really that ill equipped to discuss your beliefs that you have to misrepresent what I said in order to support your ideas?

are you?

I wrote (and you quoted), "Israel is explicitly identified as the servant 7 times throughout the book as a whole"

just an ERROR on your Part. see the Post I gave you

and you wrote, "rosends is correct as to who the suffering servant is"

yes, in the bible throughout the book of Issaiah, just wrong as to who it is..... (smile) ...LOL, LOL, LO:L.

and then said "the Christ which is not only throughout the book of Isaiah" which is not at all what I said.

I said that which is true. now read the Post I gave

That's dishonest and it typifies your methodology. If you feel the need to respond, don't rush -- I can wait while you look up the difficult words.

that's the TRUTH, now read my post I gave and see for yourself.

LOL, LOL, <LOL, Oh dear.

101G.

 

[PruePhillip]

that is indeed your understanding, but it is not at all in that verse, or in that Psalm.

The crucifixion part is Psalm 22. I didnt mean to say Psalm 110 refered to this.

 

[PruePhillip]

You make a couple of mistakes here:
1. The text of Isaiah doesn't actually have chapters -- they are a relatively recent and Christian insertion. so
2. Israel is explicitly identified as the servant 7 times throughout the book as a whole
3. The servant is never identified in the text as anyone else so any interpretation you make has to be an innovation, not native to the work


So Christians say it is messianic because their choice of "messiah" says so? That's circular and self-serving.


Yes, though it is used for its first times in reference to Abraham, it is also used for other people. And though the ideas in the psalm match a particular event in Abraham's life, some commentators see it as a reference to others like David. None of it is messianic, of course, but reference to historical/textual events.

Why do you think that? Are you aware of the Jewish idea of the role of the various anointed people?

So you find verses that seem to work with your personal idea of what the messiah is supposed to be and what the gospels describe, and you then decide that they are messianic. That is irrelevant to a Jew who understands the texts very differently and who has a set of messianic prophecies in his understanding that invalidate Jesus.

Daniel says the Messiah will come to his temple while it still stands. Jacob says the coming Messiah will signal the end of the Jewish nation. Perhaps there's some other Messiah the Christians have missed, but Jews understand?

 

[rosends]

The crucifixion part is Psalm 22. I didnt mean to say Psalm 110 refered to this.

Psalm 22 doesn't mention any crucifixion.

 

[rosends]

Daniel says the Messiah will come to his temple while it still stands. Jacob says the coming Messiah will signal the end of the Jewish nation. Perhaps there's some other Messiah the Christians have missed, but Jews understand?

Like Cyrus and Agrippa? Yes, there were others with the title "mashiach" who were spoken about textually.

 

[PruePhillip]

Psalm 22 doesn't mention any crucifixion.

Not by name, anyhow. What is YOUR take on the manner by which this man died?
Who is this man who's posterity will be told to generations to come?

What means this to you?

Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

BTW, this Psalm is connected by theme to Psalm 69 and Isaiah 53 and latter half of 52.

 

[rosends]

Not by name, anyhow. What is YOUR take on the manner by which this man died?
Who is this man who's posterity will be told to generations to come?

What means this to you?

Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

BTW, this Psalm is connected by theme to Psalm 69 and Isaiah 53 and latter half of 52.

Try this


All those in full vigor shall eat and prostrate themselves;
all those at death’s door, whose spirits flag,
shall bend the knee before Him.
Offspring shall serve Him;
the Lord’s fame shall be proclaimed to the generation
to come;
they shall tell of His beneficence to people yet to be born,
for He has acted.

I don't see that any man died -- he was nearing death but God didn't abandon him. (verse 21 the speaker prays: " Save my life from the sword,
my precious life from the clutches of a dog." and then later says "For He did not scorn, He did not spurn
the plea of the lowly;
He did not hide His face from him;
when he cried out to Him, He listened.)

 

[PruePhillip]

Try this


All those in full vigor shall eat and prostrate themselves;
all those at death’s door, whose spirits flag,
shall bend the knee before Him.
Offspring shall serve Him;
the Lord’s fame shall be proclaimed to the generation
to come;
they shall tell of His beneficence to people yet to be born,
for He has acted.

I don't see that any man died -- he was nearing death but God didn't abandon him. (verse 21 the speaker prays: " Save my life from the sword,
my precious life from the clutches of a dog." and then later says "For He did not scorn, He did not spurn
the plea of the lowly;
He did not hide His face from him;
when he cried out to Him, He listened.)

So who was this man who was suffered, pierced, forsaken BUT WAS SOMEHOW RESCUED. And of course, lived out a normal human life after that but was glorified by generations to come? Were people just told of his agony, or were they told of his death? Isaiah says this man will see death after his suffering but be satisfied for the accomplishment of his mission of redemption.

 

[wellwisher]

Sin is not a fact of nature. Rather sin is an illusion that appears because of law. For example, in the USA, there are States where marijuana is legal and also States where it is illegal. Where it is illegal, there is a sin and the wage of this sin is a fine or prison. Where marijuana is legal there is no sin. Sin depends on law, to say if is a sin. There is no natural cause and affect. This is humans playing god with their subjective knowledge of good and evil, defining sin. In some liberal cities it is a sin to pray in school. The wage of this sin can be suspension.

The forgiveness of sins amounts to the same thing, as no law, since in both cases of no law and the forgiveness of sin, the result is no connection to fear nor is the behavior sold as sin, counted as sin. For example, say you were speeding and was pulled over by a patrol officer. In the first scenario he tells you the law that you broke and he gives you a ticket; wage of this sin is a $100 fine. In the second scenario, the second officer tells you the spirit of the law; it is intended to save lives around this dangerous curve. He decides you understand the spirit of the law, and lets you off with a warning. The law was there, but since there is no wrath, fear or punishment, the end result is the same as no law and no sin; lessons of life. This is what Jesus hoped people would do for each other; law for guidelines and not for sin and punishment.

Forgiveness of sin, was another way to do away with law and sin, for those who were still slaves to law and therefore slaves to sin. They would resist losing their law, so to neutralize their induced sins, with their law still in affect, came the forgiveness of sin; learning experience. Blessed is he whose sins the Lord will not take into account.

 

[rosends]

So who was this man who was suffered, pierced, forsaken BUT WAS SOMEHOW RESCUED. And of course, lived out a normal human life after that but was glorified by generations to come? Were people just told of his agony, or were they told of his death? Isaiah says this man will see death after his suffering but be satisfied for the accomplishment of his mission of redemption.

well, he wasn't pierced, and wasn't forsaken (though he initially thought he was). Many commentators see this as a reference to the nation of Israel. As Rabbi Kimcho wrote in the 13th century, "(The address) in the singular refers to the people of Israel as a whole, for they were as one man in exile and of one mind." On verse 21 he writes "Dog, lion, and wild oxen are figurative for the kings of the nations of the world among whom we are in exile. And he describes each one in accordance with its importance (greatness). My only one is the spirit which is solitary dwelling in houses of clay, and there is nothing else like it; for the lustful soul (נפט) is the body."

Rashi remarks on verse 11
"I was cast from birth since You took me out of the womb, as Scripture states (in Isa. 46:3): “who are carried from birth.” From the time the tribes were born, He carried them and led them."

 

[dybmh]

Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial parts of the Law by being the only sacrifice we need, the only atonement.

I have seen no evidence of this.

The Commands we follow to fulfill the Law are to Love God and our neighbour.

There's more than that, I think you know it.

I was quoting Isa 64:6 but I can see that you may not agree when you follow the Commands of God. Yet for me, day after day I sin even when I want to do the right thing.

If you keep reading just a few more verses the remedy is given. It's not Jesus.

The sacrifice is given as a gift for those who repent and accept the gift. Then we are forgiven and are not trying to be good enough to earn forgiveness for our sins.

Repentence itself is the gift.

The risk is when a person stops trying to be good. And even more so if a person uses repentence to ignore their obligations. This idea is written in several places.

Jesus has authority over everyone who has ever lived and who will ever live, but most don't know that.

Isaiah 45:17

But Israel shall be saved in YHVH with an everlasting salvation; you shall not be ashamed nor confounded to all eternity.​

​

Acts 1

6So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”​

​

7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”​

Who has authority over Israel? Not Jesus.

Isaiah 45:9

Woe to him who strives with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him who fashions it, What do you make? or your work, He has no hands?​

​

Woe to Jesus if he attempts to usurp the authority of his maker.

Isaiah 45:22

Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no one else.​

​

Jesus is not needed. Not for the Jews, not for anyone. But if the story inspires and directs a person to God, perhaps it's useful. Useful, but not required.

There are a number of covenants with the Jews. The one with Abraham is said to be forever and that seems to be passed on to Isaac and Jacob and then to Israel in the Mosaic Covenant which, along with the Law seems to be an addendum to the Abrahamic Covenant. Whether the law in commands and statutes is eternal or just for an indefinite time is something I am not sure of.

Psalms 139:160

The sum of your word is truth; and every one of your righteous judgments endures for ever.​

The New Covenant is also everlasting and is for the Gentiles.
Isaiah 55:3
“Incline your ear and come to Me.
Listen, that you may live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
According to the faithful mercies shown to David.

Ezekiel 16:60
“Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you.

Ezekiel 37:26
I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever.

Jeremiah 50:5
They will ask for the way to Zion, turning their faces in its direction; they will come that they may join themselves to the Lord in an everlasting covenant that will not be forgotten.

None of these prophets are speaking to non-Jews. But all peoples are included in God's plan. This plan is simply not detailed in the Hebrew bible.

Habbakuk 2:13-14

Behold, is it not of the Lord of hosts that the peoples labor only for fire, and the nations weary themselves only for vanity?​

​

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.​

I undertand and empathize, the non-Jew wants answers and wants details about their story. But those answers and details that they are looking for about their story cannot be found in the Hebrew bible without adding or removing from the text.

The Covenant of Moses with the Law is certainly something that will continue till the Jews accept the New Covenant and then there will be no need for the Law with it's commands and statutes because the Law will be in the hearts of all under the new covenant and it won't be a matter of Rabbis teaching the ins and outs of a law that is vague in places.

You are misunderstanding the law, and the covenant described in Jeremiah.

God puts His Spirit in our heart and we all know God, from the least to the greatest and so we know what is against what God want and what He wants.

Clearly there is more to it than belief in Jesus. I don't think I need to bring examples of unholy actions commited by those who believe in Jesus especially the clergy. Even your own words testify to this: "Yet for me, day after day I sin even when I want to do the right thing."

The Levis will always have people to be priests because everyone in the New Covenant is a priest under the High Priest Jesus.

I have seen no evidence of this. Claiming the name "Israel" and "Levi" for those who are not "Isreal" and "Levi" is theft and it's a lie. You can be a nation, a better nation. You can be priests, better priests. You can have a king, a better king. But none of it is holy if it's built on a lie. Falsehood cannot exist in God's presence.

Proverbs 15:4

A wholesome tongue is a tree of life; but perverseness in it breaks the spirit.​

​

Proverbs 19:9

A false witness shall not go unpunished, and he who speaks lies shall perish.​

That's true, but it is a Messianic Psalm about the same one who judges the nations and sits on David's throne forever. IMO there is only one who does that.
The one it seems is a priest forever and so has done the work of a priest. (The Messiah imo is Priest, King and Prophet)

This is a common miscomprehension. It's natural to combine concepts together in error when a person doesn't understand.

If a promise or covenant is eternal it is eternal. The Law was for the Jews and it's requirements are fulfilled for Gentiles under the New Covenant if they Love God and their neighbour. But God want us to love others as a priority.

The law is different for the non-Jew. This is evident in the book of Acts.

Micah 6:8 He hath shown thee, O man, what is good: and what doth the Lord require of thee but to do justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

If you believe this to be true, then you must do justly and stop pretending to be Israel and Levi. Those names were not given to you. Your name is "Χριστιανός". A beautiful name with an important meaning and purpose.

Where does Jesus sin?

If you renounce the delusion of "Spiritual Israel", I will be happy to explain it. Otherwise I refer you to Psalms 101, specifically verse 7:

​

He who works deceit shall not dwell in my house; he who tells lies shall not remain in my sight.​

The guilt offering is something that God placed in the Law but goes beyond the Law to something that God wanted for all people and that certainly goes beyond the Mosaic Law paradigm but includes it.

It's prohibitted to add or remove from the Law. The guilt offering is precise, serves a specific purpose, it does not go beyond it.

Proverbs 30:6

Do not add to his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.​

​

What is in the Law foreshadowed what was to come, a better Covenant with no animal sacifice and all knowing God because we have and listen to His Spirit.

All spirits should be tested against what is written.

Jesus was not a Levite priest but was a priest and Jewish priests were among those who were responsible for His death, but I guess that has nothing to do with it.

Jesus was not a priest of any sort. But considering the history of the priesthood, this is probably a good thing.

In Isa 53 the LORD makes the servant's life an offering for sin. (Isa 53:10)

If read literally word by word it says:

אִם־תָּשִׂים - if [set/established/made]
אָשָׁם - guilt
נַפְשׁוֹ - his soul

It does not have to follow Levitical sacrificial law to the letter.

Have you learned leviticus yet?

And yes there is a hidden prophecy in Isa 53 even if the servant has nothing to do with Jesus. It is probably a use of the prophetic perfect tense.

Your desire for a hidden prophecy is noted.

I don't know what you mean by lowered expectation of the suffering servant.

Jesus was silent at points in the story, but was not able to remain that way. Verse 7 is softened, the expectations are lowered for what it means to accept God's will and suffer in silence.

In a sense of course it is Israel the nation that does fulfill Isa 53 prophecy but imo, as with other passages that are Messianic to Christians and mean something else to Jews, the prophecies in a Messianic sense fit better with the passages in a literal way.

Often what I see happening is a flip-flop between a literal and poetic understanding. And also a double standard when comes to taking things in and out of context. Certainly you wouldn't want the message of the Christian bible to be altered by taking verses out of context.

So Jesus died and was buried but lived to see children.

Notice what happened. The prophecy is understood literally to a point, but seeing "children" is understood poetically.

He was numbered among the transgressors and assigned a grave with the wicked and with the rich in His death.

And now we have flipped back to literal.

In Psalm 89 the one appointed firstborn and who call God His Father and God is the King who was rejected and killed by the Jews.

I asked about this previously, can you quote the verses in order and comment on them showing these details? Specifically killed by the Jews?

In Isa 9 the child does sit forever on the throne of David.

But the details do not match Jesus. Do you understand how an illusion works? Most often it's misdirection. One detail is held up high and waved vigorously, while the important details are overlooked.

 

[dybmh]

Sin is not a fact of nature. Rather sin is an illusion ... Blessed is he whose sins the Lord will not take into account.

... said the serpent to Eve.

 

[PruePhillip]

well, he wasn't pierced, and wasn't forsaken (though he initially thought he was). Many commentators see this as a reference to the nation of Israel. As Rabbi Kimcho wrote in the 13th century, "(The address) in the singular refers to the people of Israel as a whole, for they were as one man in exile and of one mind." On verse 21 he writes "Dog, lion, and wild oxen are figurative for the kings of the nations of the world among whom we are in exile. And he describes each one in accordance with its importance (greatness). My only one is the spirit which is solitary dwelling in houses of clay, and there is nothing else like it; for the lustful soul (נפט) is the body."

Rashi remarks on verse 11
"I was cast from birth since You took me out of the womb, as Scripture states (in Isa. 46:3): “who are carried from birth.” From the time the tribes were born, He carried them and led them."

Sure, and dog, lion and oxen can refer to individuals too. Dogs can be caninies, nations, false preachers, evil people, condemned people and those of low status.
Lions can be of the cat family, a sun figure, strength, courage, the destroyer etc..
Oxen are strength and power, even two animals yoked together for training.

I am aware of the arguments around the word 'pierce' - they are not conclusive and often are thrown up to help obscure the rest of the Psalm. I wonder what 'pierce' also means in Zechariah when the one 'whom they pierced' returns to the Jewish nation.

 

[rosends]

Sure, and dog, lion and oxen can refer to individuals too. Dogs can be caninies, nations, false preachers, evil people, condemned people and those of low status.
Lions can be of the cat family, a sun figure, strength, courage, the destroyer etc..
Oxen are strength and power, even two animals yoked together for training.

I am aware of the arguments around the word 'pierce' - they are not conclusive and often are thrown up to help obscure the rest of the Psalm. I wonder what 'pierce' also means in Zechariah when the one 'whom they pierced' returns to the Jewish nation.

Since the one who will be slain will not return, you needn't wonder about it. I am familiar with the arguments about "pierce" but, knowing the Hebrew, they are not conclusive and are only made to confuse the rest of the image in that verse. I especially enjoy looking at other instances of the root and checking what word various translations (that use "pierce" in 12:10) use there. It is often not "pierce."

 

[101G]

ANOTHER Reference to the Messiah, the Christ, Shiloh, the Lord Jesus/Yeshua
.
Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

so, Israel was wounded for Israel ...for their own sins? so Israel don't need a Saviour then ..... correct? how silly.
but the term "wounded" again reveals the Messiah, the Christ, Shiloh. wounded here is the Hebrew word,
H2490 חָלַל chalal (chaw-lal') v.
1. (properly) to bore.
2. (by implication) to wound, to dissolve.
3. (figuratively) to profane (a person, place or thing).
4. (thus) to break (one's word).
5. (also) to begin (as if by an "opening wedge").
6. (denom., from H2485) to play (the flute).
[a primitive root]
KJV: begin (X men began), defile, X break, defile, X eat (as common things), X first, X gather the grape thereof, X take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.

definition #1. states, (properly) to bore. and the term bore, when used as a verb, "To make a hole" is synonyms with, "pierce", as in Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

also bore is synonyms with, "stab", as some say in Zechariah 12:10. and is synonyms with, "spear", as in John 19:34 "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."

Now his bruising,
"he was bruised for our iniquities". if "OUR" here is Israel, then "he" is not Israel as a whole. so again that Israel as a whole want fly,
the Hebrew term bruised is,
H1792 דָּכָא daka' (daw-kaw') v.
1. to crumble.
2. transitively, to bruise (literally or figuratively).
[a primitive root]
KJV: beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite

another word for "bruise" is beaten,

and"and with his stripes we are healed."
stripes, G5417 φραγελλόω phragelloo (fra-ǰel-lo'-ō) v.
to whip, i.e. lash as a public punishment.
[from a presumed equivalent of the Latin flagellum]
KJV: scourge

the KJV can translate "stripes"as scourge? yes as in, Matthew 27:25 "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." Matthew 27:26 "Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified."

a blind can see that Isaiah 53 is speaking of the Lord Jesus, the Christ. this is just too easy.

101G.

 

[PruePhillip]

Since the one who will be slain will not return, you needn't wonder about it. I am familiar with the arguments about "pierce" but, knowing the Hebrew, they are not conclusive and are only made to confuse the rest of the image in that verse. I especially enjoy looking at other instances of the root and checking what word various translations (that use "pierce" in 12:10) use there. It is often not "pierce."

The one slain will not return? Says in Isaiah 53

He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;

Now, this is either
1 - Jesus
2 - some unknown figure
3 - some group of Jews or Israel in general.

Take your pick.

 

[Brian2]

all right listen, who picked up the Rock ..... the Head give directions to the Body... correct. understand, the LORD/Father directed the Body, his POWER/ARM to pick up the Rock. the Power is in the Body, here the ARM.

see, the head authorized or empowered the ARM to do something.... got it? that's why the Lord Jesus said, "I do nothing of myself".

see, as I gave the example an "ARM" of Flesh, as the POWER of an ARMY. no army just jump up and start fighting, nor do your OWN arn just pick up a Rock on it's own. it first must be A. Authorized, and then B. exercise, or given the power to carry out or execute the Mission.

one need to understand the difference of "POWER"... ,G1411, dunamis, and ,G1849, exousia.

101G.

I can understand that.