Isa ibn Maryam

[Ellen Brown]

Not possible to know which view is true about Jesus. In Islam the differences would be judged at the time of End when Mahdi and
Christ return. In Christianity also, Christ and Elijah are to return at the time of End.

Yes, there is great disunity between Islam and Christianity, but I wonder if a large part of that is simply due to hatred of the west after Colonialism of most of the Islamic World? The invaders tried to use the cloak of Christianity to justify their aggression.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes, there is great disunity between Islam and Christianity, but I wonder if a large part of that is simply due to hatred of the west after Colonialism of most of the Islamic World? The invaders tried to use the cloak of Christianity to justify their aggression.

I believe there is just deeper reason for the disunity. Religious fanaticism and blind imitation are two of the main reasons I believe.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I believe there is just deeper reason for the disunity. Religious fanaticism and blind imitation are two of the main reasons I believe.

Then there is this:

Genesis 16:11-12
11 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.
12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.


Not being God, or an Angel, in my lack of understanding, this seems unfair.

 

[arthra]

For me Jesus as "Son of God" is more of a spiritual title than a literal physical reality, also God does not incarnate Himself in the flesh. Jesus used the term 'Father" when addressing God as the relationship between a father and son can be a close one. I think He distanced Himself from the belief of God as a distant remote Figure and was not accepted by the priestly caste.

The following is a Baha'i view of Jesus and His station:

"As regards to your questions concerning the station of Jesus Christ, and His return as explained in the Gospel. It is true that Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of God, but this, as explained by Bahá'u'lláh in the 'Íqán, does not indicate any Physical relationship whatever. Its meaning is entirely spiritual and points to the close relationship existing between Him and the Almighty God. Nor does it necessarily indicate any inherent superiority in the station of Jesus over other Prophets and Messengers. As far as their spiritual nature is concerned all Prophets can be regarded as Sons of God, as they all reflect His light, though not in an equal measure, and this difference in reflection is due to the conditions and circumstances under which they appear."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 29, 1937)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 491)

 

[arthra]

Then there is this:

Genesis 16:11-12
11 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.
12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Not being God, or an Angel, in my lack of understanding, this seems unfair.

Sometime ago I researched the verse you quoted and came up with an alternate translation:

You know I think it's interesting that Ishmael is viewed in such negative terms because the verses in scripture actually accord Ishmael a high station...

How many personages in the Bible were named by the Angel of the Lord?

See Genesis 16:11

"You shall call him Ishmael... " Ishmael means "God has heard".

The part of the verse that talks about Ishmael as a "wildass of a man" could also be translated that he was a swift runner... and that he was a helper to his fellows and not as translated his hand is against others..

Follow the possible meanings of the Hebrew words in common lexicons such as Strongs and you will see variations in the meaning of the actual words used.."Yad" for hand can mean "against him" but can also mean "My hand is with someone"...so the text doesn't really support a negative connotation.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Sometime ago I researched the verse you quoted and came up with an alternate translation:

You know I think it's interesting that Ishmael is viewed in such negative terms because the verses in scripture actually accord Ishmael a high station...

How many personages in the Bible were named by the Angel of the Lord?

See Genesis 16:11

"You shall call him Ishmael... " Ishmael means "God has heard".

The part of the verse that talks about Ishmael as a "wildass of a man" could also be translated that he was a swift runner... and that he was a helper to his fellows and not as translated his hand is against others..

Follow the possible meanings of the Hebrew words in common lexicons such as Strongs and you will see variations in the meaning of the actual words used.."Yad" for hand can mean "against him" but can also mean "My hand is with someone"...so the text doesn't really support a negative connotation.

I see. Muslims regard him as their progenitor. I had assumed that his descendants attacked other nations, as is seemingly illustrated by history. However the story about at least some of this is different, and was gotten under instruction in a Mosque. According to that instruction, the first to be attacked after Islam formed, was the Byzantines, who had persecuted the Arabs.

I was just reading a brief Wiki to make sure I remembered correctly. It seems that the Islamic conquest at its greatest extent only took around 100 years. Oddly, the Iberian conquest took only around a decade, and the Wiki says that was mostly due to the fact that the existing government was in decline.

I find history between the time of Jesus to about 1500 AD to be very interesting. I wonder if the real story is that Ishmael's descendants would be persecuted?

 

[Socratic Berean]

1. Scriptural illiteracy is rife in today’s Christian church. Attendance of a sound bible church, focused on exegesis, would remove your wonder about what is really known and understood about Jesus, and the accuracy of those accounts, in the Christian world. (One can be “devout” and terribly immature in understanding for years, in my personal experience.)

2. A deeper questioning of Muhammad vis-a-vis Jesus may provide clarity. Why, for example, did Muhammad call himself and Jesus prophets of God, acknowledge that Jesus did miracles, and himself never claim to do one? Why did he and his followers call himself a prophet while Jesus and his followers clearly mark the Nazarene as “Messiah” and “son of God?” Muhammad presumably was aware of the major prophecies regarding the identification of the Messiah, and should have recognized Jesus’ fulfillment of more than two dozen of those. What gives?

3. How does “gentle man” square with Muslim scholar accounts of brutality, literal savagery, in Muhammad’s directed acts of war and the consummation of marriage with under-aged girls? (Cultural arguments aside, even Muslim scholars concede his sexual exploits with his 12-year-old bride).

 

[Ellen Brown]

1. Scriptural illiteracy is rife in today’s Christian church. Attendance of a sound bible church, focused on exegesis, would remove your wonder about what is really known and understood about Jesus, and the accuracy of those accounts, in the Christian world. (One can be “devout” and terribly immature in understanding for years, in my personal experience.)

2. A deeper questioning of Muhammad vis-a-vis Jesus may provide clarity. Why, for example, did Muhammad call himself and Jesus prophets of God, acknowledge that Jesus did miracles, and himself never claim to do one? Why did he and his followers call himself a prophet while Jesus and his followers clearly mark the Nazarene as “Messiah” and “son of God?” Muhammad presumably was aware of the major prophecies regarding the identification of the Messiah, and should have recognized Jesus’ fulfillment of more than two dozen of those. What gives?

3. How does “gentle man” square with Muslim scholar accounts of brutality, literal savagery, in Muhammad’s directed acts of war and the consummation of marriage with under-aged girls? (Cultural arguments aside, even Muslim scholars concede his sexual exploits with his 12-year-old bride).

You assume much. I won't attempt to discuss this with you.

 

[Ellen Brown]

1. Scriptural illiteracy is rife in today’s Christian church. Attendance of a sound bible church, focused on exegesis, would remove your wonder about what is really known and understood about Jesus, and the accuracy of those accounts, in the Christian world. (One can be “devout” and terribly immature in understanding for years, in my personal experience.)

2. A deeper questioning of Muhammad vis-a-vis Jesus may provide clarity. Why, for example, did Muhammad call himself and Jesus prophets of God, acknowledge that Jesus did miracles, and himself never claim to do one? Why did he and his followers call himself a prophet while Jesus and his followers clearly mark the Nazarene as “Messiah” and “son of God?” Muhammad presumably was aware of the major prophecies regarding the identification of the Messiah, and should have recognized Jesus’ fulfillment of more than two dozen of those. What gives?

3. How does “gentle man” square with Muslim scholar accounts of brutality, literal savagery, in Muhammad’s directed acts of war and the consummation of marriage with under-aged girls? (Cultural arguments aside, even Muslim scholars concede his sexual exploits with his 12-year-old bride).

Don't attempt to derail this thread. Your statements have nothing to do with the matter in question. While Christianity has a non complimentary view of Muhammad, it is not shared with a substantial number of people. I won't attempt to judge him based upon closed minded hatreds. While I'll admit to being sympathetic to many Christian views, I think they belief system is increasingly losing credibility due to depending on hateful rhetoric rather than real scholarship.

As stated in the OP, I am looking for the defining moment that fledgling Islam decided that Jesus Christ was not who Christians said he was. From Islamic history, he is known to have had much contact with Christians and Jews. I suspect that this moment happened after the death of Muhammad.

 

[Socratic Berean]

Don't attempt to derail this thread. Your statements have nothing to do with the matter in question.”

With all due respect, Ellen, your lengthy OP raises many issues beyond what you highlight as the main one, and these other issues are so fundamental in nature that they will impact your level of success in finding any measure of clarity on the “matter in question.” As only one of several examples, you note “In Christian circles it seems almost impossible to find the correct story about Isa ibn Maryam, or Jesus the Christ.” My first point was aimed at helping you shore up that stance. (Stop looking a circles and learn to exegete the first hand material.)

Starting with a foundation full of cracks, you will never build walls, let alone a roof, in which to house your quest for an answer.

 

[Ellen Brown]

With all due respect, Ellen, your lengthy OP raises many issues beyond what you highlight as the main one, and these other issues are so fundamental in nature that they will impact your level of success in finding any measure of clarity on the “matter in question.” As only one of several examples, you note “In Christian circles it seems almost impossible to find the correct story about Isa ibn Maryam, or Jesus the Christ.” My first point was aimed at helping you shore up that stance. (Stop looking a circles and learn to exegete the first hand material.)

Starting with a foundation full of cracks, you will never build walls, let alone a roof, in which to house your quest for an answer.

Sorry, I'm going to take a break from this. I'm feeling too emotional about it.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Being western and mostly Christian, the origin of Islam seems very curious to me because of my Middle Eastern background. In Christian circles it seems almost impossible to find the correct story about Isa ibn Maryam, or Jesus the Christ. Jesus Christ is not actually his name; Christ meaning actually something like "The Chosen one" in Greek. I'm told that his name would have been Yeshua Ben Yosuf, when he was "in body" at the time he was here on Earth. I'm actually told that he likely spoke Aramaic, which is supposed to be very close to Arabic. In fact in some Middle Eastern Christian cultures, they still speak Aramaic and call God, "Allah".


In this Thread, I would like to explore the reasons that Muslims rejected Jesus as the Son of God, and NO, the idea that they were just evil does not constitute adequate scholarship. The Muslim cultural belief about Jesus is very different than that of the Christian Community at large. It seems very odd to me that at one point Ethiopian Christians protected the followers of Muhammad PBUH during their wars with the then leaders around Makkah. Today, there are still some Muslims living in Ethiopia, and a Christian Ethiopian woman told me that they are devils.

Most of my religious experience has been as a Christian, though there was seven years as devout Muslim, hence the internal conflict, and distancing from any organized belief system.

So far, I have not found a defining moment where Muhammad would likely have made the decision he did about Jesus. Western commentaries do not agree, but Muslim cultural histories see Muhammad as a gentle man and good organizer. He is said to have authored "The Constitution of Medina", the first document in history to grant rights to women.

Having raised Children, I believe that there is always two sides to a story, and I am trying to find the right one. Frankly, Christians have not been good with accuracy.

Christ is a Greek version of Messiah emphasizing coronation where the Hebrew version emphasize amounting
This is consistent with Psalm 2 where God;s chosen will be poured out on Mount Zion and be given the nations

I would see Mary as the maidservant the Psalms say of the Messiah 'I am your servant the son of your maidservant' and I believe Mary was referring to that when she said 'I am the Lord's maidservant' as she quoted around that Psalm in Luke

 

[Ellen Brown]

Christ is a Greek version of Messiah emphasizing coronation where the Hebrew version emphasize amounting
This is consistent with Psalm 2 where God;s chosen will be poured out on Mount Zion and be given the nations

I would see Mary as the maidservant the Psalms say of the Messiah 'I am your servant the son of your maidservant' and I believe Mary was referring to that when she said 'I am the Lord's maidservant' as she quoted around that Psalm in Luke

That is why I often refer to him as Jesus the Christ. I've a lot of interest in the early Church, but am only educated by my own reading. And, owing to what I have seen, am mostly divorced from the "Church" because I think that many of the denominations have engaged in a long process of watering down the words of the Bible, and other documents so that it might be more acceptable to the masses. It is amazing to me that some passages, even in the NT, have been completely abrogated.

I greatly admire Mary the mother of Jesus, and Mary Magdalene. It is sad that certain churches have sought to devalue MM, even going so far as to call her a prostitute, which I think if an evil attempt to deprive her of the same forgiveness that everyone else gets.