Isa ibn Maryam

[Ellen Brown]

Being western and mostly Christian, the origin of Islam seems very curious to me because of my Middle Eastern background. In Christian circles it seems almost impossible to find the correct story about Isa ibn Maryam, or Jesus the Christ. Jesus Christ is not actually his name; Christ meaning actually something like "The Chosen one" in Greek. I'm told that his name would have been Yeshua Ben Yosuf, when he was "in body" at the time he was here on Earth. I'm actually told that he likely spoke Aramaic, which is supposed to be very close to Arabic. In fact in some Middle Eastern Christian cultures, they still speak Aramaic and call God, "Allah".


In this Thread, I would like to explore the reasons that Muslims rejected Jesus as the Son of God, and NO, the idea that they were just evil does not constitute adequate scholarship. The Muslim cultural belief about Jesus is very different than that of the Christian Community at large. It seems very odd to me that at one point Ethiopian Christians protected the followers of Muhammad PBUH during their wars with the then leaders around Makkah. Today, there are still some Muslims living in Ethiopia, and a Christian Ethiopian woman told me that they are devils.

Most of my religious experience has been as a Christian, though there was seven years as devout Muslim, hence the internal conflict, and distancing from any organized belief system.

So far, I have not found a defining moment where Muhammad would likely have made the decision he did about Jesus. Western commentaries do not agree, but Muslim cultural histories see Muhammad as a gentle man and good organizer. He is said to have authored "The Constitution of Medina", the first document in history to grant rights to women.

Having raised Children, I believe that there is always two sides to a story, and I am trying to find the right one. Frankly, Christians have not been good with accuracy.

 

[Jim]

In this Thread, I would like to explore the reasons that Muslims rejected Jesus as the Son of God ...

I don’t think that the Quran rejects Jesus as the Son of G_d, in the way that was understood by Jesus and Peter. I think that what the Quran rejects is Christian conceptions of what Jesus and Peter meant by that.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

In this Thread, I would like to explore the reasons that Muslims rejected Jesus as the Son of God, and NO, the idea that they were just evil does not constitute adequate scholarship.

Is one of the reasons because accepting Jesus as the Son of God (as in a vessel for divine presence) would violate the concept of tawhid (as in God is indivisibly One)?

 

[Jim]

In this Thread, I would like to explore the reasons that Muslims rejected Jesus as the Son of God ...

See Jesus Christ - Son of God? (part 1 of 2): The Meaning of “Son of God” - The Religion of Islam

That might not be a complete or entirely accurate explanation, but it might be a good place to start. It has some good thoughts about how to approach the question. You might need to read everything the Quran says about Jesus, and read again what Peter says about who Jesus is, in its full context, and don’t forget to pray about it and ask for divine assistance in understanding it.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I don’t think that the Quran rejects Jesus as the Son of G_d, in the way that was understood by Jesus and Peter. I think that what the Quran rejects is Christian conceptions of what Jesus and Peter meant by that.

Keep in mind that there is not just one Islamic school of thought. In Salafi thought, seeing Jesus as the Son of God is deeply offensive and called "Shirk". One being guilty of that can expect to be beheaded by the next devout Muslim.

Many Muslims I talked to seem pensive about talking of it. I am fairly sure that the largest issue is translating between Arabic and any other language. Aramaic speaking Christians in Northern Syria and elsewhere seemed to come to a sort of peace that existed for more than a thousand years, though I do not understand what it was. Aramaic is very close to Arabic.

 

[Jim]

Jesus Christ is not actually his name; Christ meaning actually something like "The Chosen one" in Greek.

In this Thread, I would like to explore the reasons that Muslims rejected Jesus as the Son of God,

I’ll tell you my thoughts about it. You might understand this better if you read the Wikipedia article in “Messiah.”

“Christ” comes from a Greek word which can mean “anointed.” “Messiah” comes from a Hebrew word which can also mean “anointed.” There was a ritual of anointment for kings of Israel. There’s a passage in the Old Testament where G_d says to King David, about one of His descendants who will be king, “He will be my son, and I will be his father.” A king is a son of a king. Analogously, a king of Israel is a son of G_d. There have been many concepts of “messiah” in Judaism, including messiah as a king. It might be one of those concepts that Peter had in mind when he called Jesus “the anointed one, the Son of God.”

In any case, Jesus confirmed what Peter said, and I don’t see anything in the Quran denying that. What I think it is rejecting is Christian conceptions about what it means to say that Jesus is the Son of G_d.


Sura 112:

In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

1. Say, “He is God, the One.

2. God, the Absolute.

3. He begets not, nor was He begotten.

4. And there is none comparable to Him.”

 

[Jim]

Keep in mind that there is not just one Islamic school of thought.

Maybe I misunderstood what your question is. So you’re trying to find out how misunderstandings of what the Quran says about Jesus became so widespread among Muslims?

 

[Ellen Brown]

See Jesus Christ - Son of God? (part 1 of 2): The Meaning of “Son of God” - The Religion of Islam

That might not be a complete or entirely accurate explanation, but it might be a good place to start. It has some good thoughts about how to approach the question. You might need to read everything the Quran says about Jesus, and read again what Peter says about who Jesus is, in its full context, and don’t forget to pray about it and ask for divine assistance in understanding it.

Quran Chapter 3 speaks extensively of Jesus, whom they call Isa PBUH. So, there is great reverence toward him, but it seems that in relaying him from Aramaic, Greek and what ever else was spoke by those Muhammad PBUH encountered, the ideas did not get accurately transferred. In Islam, Muhammad is said to have had a Christian friend who he met regularly on his Caravan trips. The Islamic story is that Muhammad was a Caravan man and traveled all over the Arabian Peninsula and up as far as present day Lebanon perhaps (???)

In the lessons I was given by Islamic Scholars about Muhammad, he heard of Isa bin Maryam from the Christian Priest. He also had some Jewish friends and he learned a great deal from them. Not surprisingly, some of the Jews fought him, though it is impossible to know the reasons.

Islam's issue with Jesus is they strongly believe that Allah SWT (God) has no helpers, else he could not be God. They believe (d) that a Creator would not be bothered with having a son. Of course, the Jews completely rejected any idea of legitimacy of Jesus.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Maybe I misunderstood what your question is. So you’re trying to find out how misunderstandings of what the Quran says about Jesus became so widespread among Muslims?

Yes, I am trying to find out if there might have been a moment when Muhammad decided that Jesus could not have been the Son of God. I am beginning to wonder if the ideas about Jesus actually became firm after his death?

 

[Jim]

Yes, I am trying to find out if there might have been a moment when Muhammad decided that Jesus could not have been the Son of God. I am beginning to wonder if the ideas about Jesus actually became firm after his death?

Okay, we might be coming from a very different place. I don’t think the Quran is wrong about G_d or about Jesus. You might not ever find a real answer to your question without questioning your own understanding of what “Son of God” means to Jesus and Peter.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I don’t think that the Quran rejects Jesus as the Son of G_d.

Clearly it does

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam . . ."

Surah 3:59

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth."

Surah 4:171

"They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode."

Surah 5:72

 

[Jim]

Yes, I am trying to find out if there might have been a moment when Muhammad decided that Jesus could not have been the Son of God. I am beginning to wonder if the ideas about Jesus actually became firm after his death?

I’m not sure that anything I can think of to say can help, but I’m not sure it can’t. You might not find real answers to some of your questions without learning from experience to trust the lore and scriptures of religions more than you do. I’ll give you a possible naturalistic explanation for the prophets to have knowledge that we can trust. I’m not sure it will help, but I’m not sure it won’t. Have you heard of people who can do instant accurate calculations with large numbers, without being able to explain how they do it? There are also a few who can describe it, not to say really explain it. One for example who says he sees numbers as patterns of colors. Have there ever been conflicts between your intuition and your reasoning, where it turned out that your intuition was right? If you meditate on those phenomena, it might open up your heart and mind to the possibility of the words of the prophets communicating knowledge that we can trust, about the best possibilities in life. Of course that needs to be tested, but to test it fairly, your heart and mind need to be open to it.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The reasons Muslims reject Jesus as a son of God is the same reason Jews reject Muhammad as a prophet it is what was revealed to the people. Although the Talmud reports there were millions of other prophets who spoke within there generation and even among gentiles (Balaam comes to mind). With that being said, the rejection of Jesus as Son of God or Allah is due to what was revealed to Muhammad. There is nothing special about this, but those in opposition to Islam have stated that Muhammad had people around him that were learned in Judeo-Christian scriptures.

 

[Jim]

Something I wrote was quoted above, with a very important part of the context removed, so I’ll repeat it, with the context (bolding added).

I don’t think that the Quran rejects Jesus as the Son of G_d, in the way that was understood by Jesus and Peter. I think that what the Quran rejects is Christian conceptions of what Jesus and Peter meant by that.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I’m not sure that anything I can think of to say can help, but I’m not sure it can’t. You might not find real answers to some of your questions without learning from experience to trust the lore and scriptures of religions more than you do. I’ll give you a possible naturalistic explanation for the prophets to have knowledge that we can trust. I’m not sure it will help, but I’m not sure it won’t. Have you heard of people who can do instant accurate calculations with large numbers, without being able to explain how they do it? There are also a few who can describe it, not to say really explain it. One for example who says he sees numbers as patterns of colors. Have there ever been conflicts between your intuition and your reasoning, where it turned out that your intuition was right? If you meditate on those phenomena, it might open up your heart and mind to the possibility of the words of the prophets communicating knowledge that we can trust, about the best possibilities in life. Of course that needs to be tested, but to test it fairly, your heart and mind need to be open to it.

And, you are right. Trusting others is always an issue.

 

[Jim]

Trusting others is always an issue.

And trusting yourself, also.

 

[Jim]

Yes, I am trying to find out if there might have been a moment when Muhammad decided that Jesus could not have been the Son of God. I am beginning to wonder if the ideas about Jesus actually became firm after his death?

Okay, I’ll go there, even though I think that psychoanalyzing the prophets is barking up the wrong tree. If Muhammad wanted to appeal to Jewish people, He would need to make it clear that He was not endorsing the polytheism in Christianity, or the kind of pantheons that we see in some mythologies, where the gods procreate with human partners.

ETA:

That might be more important than trying to explain what Jesus and Peter meant by “Son of God, which might create needless confusion and distractions. For Muhammad’s purposes, He only needed to recognize Jesus as an authentic prophet, with some unique qualities and capacities. What Christians had made of “Son of God” made it impossible for Muhammad use that terminology without it being grievously misunderstood by other people, and there was no need to do so. What people need to know about Jesus can be said in other ways. For example, as I think, “Son of God” might simply be another name for a king messiah, among Jewish people in the time of Jesus.

 

[Jim]

Yes, I am trying to find out if there might have been a moment when Muhammad decided that Jesus could not have been the Son of God. I am beginning to wonder if the ideas about Jesus actually became firm after his death?

I might have some better ideas if I can think of it in more practical terms. Can you think of any ways that an answer to this question might help you with whatever you’re trying to do or hoping to do in your life? To be better able to help Muslims see what you see in Jesus, for example?

 

[Jim]

Having raised Children, I believe that there is always two sides to a story, and I am trying to find the right one. Frankly, Christians have not been good with accuracy.

There are many more than two sides to the story, on both sides of the imaginary line between Christians and Muslims, and some on each side are closer in their views to some on the other side, than they are to some on their own side. I don’t think that anyone has the right story. Everyone’s story is right in some ways and wrong in some ways. I’m still not sure I understand what you’re trying or hoping to do, but I have some thoughts that might help in any case. Try setting aside the question about Jesus being the Son of God, for now. Look for articles about Jesus by Muslims who revere Him and recognize His special qualities and capacities that the Quran says he has. Then read one or more of the gospels, seeking a new understanding of what Jesus says about himself. Maybe, Mark, and John, for example.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Being western and mostly Christian, the origin of Islam seems very curious to me because of my Middle Eastern background. In Christian circles it seems almost impossible to find the correct story about Isa ibn Maryam, or Jesus the Christ. Jesus Christ is not actually his name; Christ meaning actually something like "The Chosen one" in Greek. I'm told that his name would have been Yeshua Ben Yosuf, when he was "in body" at the time he was here on Earth. I'm actually told that he likely spoke Aramaic, which is supposed to be very close to Arabic. In fact in some Middle Eastern Christian cultures, they still speak Aramaic and call God, "Allah".


In this Thread, I would like to explore the reasons that Muslims rejected Jesus as the Son of God, and NO, the idea that they were just evil does not constitute adequate scholarship. The Muslim cultural belief about Jesus is very different than that of the Christian Community at large. It seems very odd to me that at one point Ethiopian Christians protected the followers of Muhammad PBUH during their wars with the then leaders around Makkah. Today, there are still some Muslims living in Ethiopia, and a Christian Ethiopian woman told me that they are devils.

Most of my religious experience has been as a Christian, though there was seven years as devout Muslim, hence the internal conflict, and distancing from any organized belief system.

So far, I have not found a defining moment where Muhammad would likely have made the decision he did about Jesus. Western commentaries do not agree, but Muslim cultural histories see Muhammad as a gentle man and good organizer. He is said to have authored "The Constitution of Medina", the first document in history to grant rights to women.

Having raised Children, I believe that there is always two sides to a story, and I am trying to find the right one. Frankly, Christians have not been good with accuracy.

Not possible to know which view is true about Jesus. In Islam the differences would be judged at the time of End when Mahdi and
Christ return. In Christianity also, Christ and Elijah are to return at the time of End.