Is Western livestyle a "Tantric heaven" having come true?

[Sirona]

Namaste and hello, I am reading a book entitled Kali Kaula - A Manual of Tantric Magick about the history and practice of Tantra mostly in the Hindu context but there are references to Buddhism too. The author’s name is Jan Fries and he is German so I guess he’s a convert. There’s a statement in his book that for left-hand practicioners, the 5 M’s are taken literally. As you may know, these are madya (alcohol), mamsa (meat), matsya (fish), mudra (gesture/parched grain), and maithuna (intercourse), who are to be avoided by orthodox Hindus AFAIK. But the thing is, the author writes from a Western (German) cultural perspective. I’d say for the vast majority of Westerners, eating fish, meat and grain and especially drinking alcohol are normal. Maithuna is a tricky one, but marriage rates are dropping, people nowadays prefer to live together without being married or sometimes just have one-night stands, which is made easier by the availability of contraceptives. I also followed the discussions of atheists (mostly former Christians) on this board. Quite a few of them seem to insist that there is just one life and that therefore one should enjoy it to the maximum. I wondered how similar this attitude is to the Tantric Buddhist concept that everything is void and that one should therefore enjoy the moment. Before Hinduism, I was interested in Diamondway Buddhism (Ole Nydahl) who seemed to promote this view. I wondered how far to the East a Western practicioner actually has to go, or whether he possibly is already there. To what extent is Western civilisation at a large scale close to a “Tantric heaven” having come true? Where do you see major differences?

 

[Secret Chief]

Perhaps one should enjoy the moment, but before that moment, one should maybe consider what the consequences might be if one decides to "go ahead" with the intended moment?

 

[SomeRandom]

I suppose in a lot of ways the “Western lifestyle” is rather freer. Culturally speaking there is still a bit of a taboo regarding casual sex in many places. But that does seem to be less prevalent among the youth.
Ironically one could point to earlier periods of history and find a much more hedonistic existence. The Libertine movement of the 16 -1700s for instance.
There are of course pockets of the faithful who refuse to partake in such “hedonism” to varying degrees.

But I suppose there does seem more of a revelry in general compared to spiritual practices among the West. A sort of watered down experience for some

 

[Martin]

I think tantra is an attitude of mind, and little to do with lifestyle choices.
Not something to be found in books, you really need a teacher.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The author’s name is Jan Fries and he is German so I guess he’s a convert.
Quite a few of them seem to insist that there is just one life and that therefore one should enjoy it to the maximum.
To what extent is Western civilisation at a large scale close to a “Tantric heaven” having come true? Where do you see major differences?

In true Hindu tantra practice, the 5Ms are used symbolically to get away from attachments, and not as indulgence.
As you know I am a strong atheist Hindu. I too do not believe in any 'next life'. But that is not a license for doing whatever one wants.
There is no problem about enjoying life, but it must be done within the bounds of one's 'dharma'. The goal is to safe-guard the society.
No one, under any circumstances, is supposed to cross the boundaries of their 'dharma'. That is the Hindu perspective.
What a German, convert or Christian (or even a Hindu), writes or does is immaterial.

 

[Sirona]

In true Hindu tantra practice, the 5Ms are used symbolically to get away from attachments, and not as indulgence.
As you know I am a strong atheist Hindu. I too do not believe in any 'next life'. But that is not a license for doing whatever one wants.
There is no problem about enjoying life, but it must be done within the bounds of one's 'dharma'. The goal is to safe-guard the society.
No one, under any circumstances, is supposed to cross the boundaries of their 'dharma'. That is the Hindu perspective.
What a German, convert or Christian (or even a Hindu), writes or does is immaterial.

No need to become stroppy, if I’m wrong then I’m wrong. I can live with that. To my limited knowledge, in Tantrism, there’s a right-handed path (Dakshinachara), where the 5 Ms are taken symbolically, as opposed to a left-hand path (Vamachara) where the 5M’s are taken literally. If I have touched a taboo with this, it would be far more helpful to explain it. And if Vamachara does not fall within the realm of Hindu beliefs that may be discussed here, fine. It should be clarified as well.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Vamachara traditions place strict ritual limits on the use of these literal forms and warn against nonsanctioned use. If so used they encourage the person to sin. Practitioners of vamachara rituals may make symbolic substitutions for these literal things, which are not permitted in orthodox Hindu practice.
The fact that tantric practices can be done without involvement with the literal pancha-makara is emphasized by Swami Madhavananda, and said to have been practiced by numerous saints. (Aup adds: that may be Swami Madhavananda's view)"
Vamachara - Wikipedia

Sirona, I am not being stroppy, not with you. But you need to realize that no philosophy in Hinduism encourages hedonism, not even 'vamachara'.

 

[Sirona]

Sirona, I am not being stroppy, not with you. But you need to realize that no philosophy in Hinduism encourages hedonism, not even 'vamachara'.

Thanks, it has been noted.